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Author Topic: Fernando`s Force multiplier  (Read 118679 times)

Offline markusbraunfe

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2012, 08:43:23 PM »
Hi i_ron, thanks for your replication efforts.

You said no OU so far.
But how about this theory:
due to the CW/CCW rotaton the output shaft contantly speeds up and down, mechanically there is probably no OU but since the generator is directly attached
it gets slowed up and down constantly and this could trigger some strange electromagnetic effect and lead to OU ?

Could someone expert in electromagnetics chime in here ( UFOPolitics etc).

The output current (if alternate) is probably a sine wave with varying frequency  so in order to be usable I assume you have to convert it into DC and then back to AC using an inverter.

Ron, do you have the possibility to attach a generator to your output shaft and then attach some load to it and measure what the input to output power ratios are?

Another idea if my theory is correct, that OU takes place in the generator and not at mechanical level:
I did not do the math but perhaps one could replace the crank with oval sprockets and a chain and obtain a similar speed curve and it would be probably more robust and not destroy itself easily like
the version with the crank.. Putting a counterweight  to the oval sprockets should keep the eccentricity of the wheels at a minimum.

Let me know what you guys think about my theories.

I think if it's real, then Fernando just discovered the effect accidentally by trial and error and does not really know what's going on inside the machine.


I thought the difference between having both shafts turning CW and the shafts turning CW/CCW
would be a proof of gain. Not found, With a 300mm proof bar and a spring scale indicating 1 Kg in each case, the CW case drew 2 amps while the shafts rotating in opposite directions drew 2.32 amps. This is with the shafts 280mm apart and an eccentric of 12mm, (1 inch total) and 290mm, 4.35 Kg flywheels.

Perhaps weights and dimensions are critical?

Regards, Ron
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 09:55:39 PM by markusbraunfe »

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2012, 08:43:23 PM »

Offline Honza

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2012, 12:08:21 AM »
Hi Marcuc and all others
Quote
if my theory is correct, that OU takes place in the generator and not at mechanical level
From all I have researched about Ramos multiplier (and Ucros multiplier) points towards the overunity been generated on mechanical level. In one of his interviews Ramos stated that he produced the unit initially without a generator and disguised it as a hydraulic powerpack and other engineers from his work could not understand how it can work when he disclose it to them / pulled it apart.
 
Both Ramos and Ucros describe the movement of energy in their units as" recycling". Ramos gives the analogy of Kungfu - where instead of resisting the energy of attacker one adds to it and merely changes the direction.
In Ramos unit a part of inertia of the mechanical system is during each revolution transferred forward from one wheel to other and from there back to the first wheel in a figure 8 motion. The speed fluctuation is needed to create the inertia transfer.

In Ucros unit there is no need for speed changes because there the recycled energy is not inertial - he recycles torque. During each cycle part of the torque generated by gravity is transferred forward and returned back again.

In Terawatt system they appear to achieve much the same as in Ramos unit (only softer) by magnetic oscillations on mechanical level. They don't even have any generator on the output.

Ramos unit is construction-wise very challenging as it deals with tremendous forces. What could help is some sort of mechanical softening of the peaks.
What could be worth trying is bearings pressed into in rubber bushes. This should help to get it going but it would add to the durability issues.
Alternatively the design can be modified by separating the cranks from the flywheel & shaft assemblies, and having the cranks mounted on it flexibly (via springs ?). This would be a durable solution for smoothing the peaks but could reduce the multiplication effect.
Ramos unit will never be easy to build but the reported multiplication factor is so great that it is definitely worth the effort.

cheers
 

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Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2012, 12:58:26 AM »
Hi Honza,

Thank you for showing the Ucros device.

Seems to work like a seesaw. It has a balanced beam, with balanced weights but as one weight is pushing one crank down it is aiding pulling the other weighted crank up. A balanced beam takes very little energy to move back and forth.

The only thing I'm unsure of is the power take off is it constant or only on the weight of the down stroke? Also is the drive motor turned off during the pull up phase and driven during the push up phase? It's very hard to see the pictures and writing on them.

Offline i_ron

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2012, 01:18:29 AM »
Hi i_ron, thanks for your replication efforts.

You said no OU so far.
But how about this theory:
due to the CW/CCW rotaton the output shaft contantly speeds up and down, mechanically there is probably no OU but since the generator is directly attached
it gets slowed up and down constantly and this could trigger some strange electromagnetic effect and lead to OU ?

Could someone expert in electromagnetics chime in here ( UFOPolitics etc).

The output current (if alternate) is probably a sine wave with varying frequency  so in order to be usable I assume you have to convert it into DC and then back to AC using an inverter.

Ron, do you have the possibility to attach a generator to your output shaft and then attach some load to it and measure what the input to output power ratios are?

Another idea if my theory is correct, that OU takes place in the generator and not at mechanical level:
I did not do the math but perhaps one could replace the crank with oval sprockets and a chain and obtain a similar speed curve and it would be probably more robust and not destroy itself easily like
the version with the crank.. Putting a counterweight  to the oval sprockets should keep the eccentricity of the wheels at a minimum.

Let me know what you guys think about my theories.

I think if it's real, then Fernando just discovered the effect accidentally by trial and error and does not really know what's going on inside the machine.




Some good theories...some not so. The flywheel and generator together are not going to experience any speed fluctuations. The lighter driven flywheel, with its belt drive, will do the attempted speed variation.


My machine is kaput, so no generator trials possible


Ron


Offline Honza

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2012, 02:01:21 AM »
Quote
I'm unsure of is the power take off is it constant or only on the weight of the down stroke? Also is the drive motor turned off during the pull up phase and driven during the push up phase?
I don't have a clear answer to this, although I suspect (based on the Ramos and Terawatt units that the power output is continuous even for Ucros unit, provided there is a sufficient inertia on the output shaft.

As Ron pointed out in the above post - in the Ramos unit there is a sizeable inertia on the output shaft supplied by the rotor of the deployed generator running at 1500RPM or so.
By default the input motor on Ramos unit will be on and off, despite been hooked on all time. This is because of the steep torque characteristic of asynchronous ac motors (comparable to diesel engines). When the revs drop down the motor puts in heaps of torque, and when the shaft speeds up the motor stops supplying torque.
If the shaft overspeeds the synchronous speed of the motor the motor actually becomes a brake and starts to pump power into grid. Usually at < 10% of overspeed the motor pumps full nameplate power back to grid.

In Ucros unit the speed is steady - so the input motor is capable to supply steady input at @ steady torque. The  same applies to the output.
If this is actually utilized by the inventor remains unanswered and needs to be tested during a replication attempt. There could be some further tricks involved in timing the input / output because we know that Ucros claims he has managed to electrically close the loop and achieve self-sustained performance.
My evaluation is that the electrical smartness should not be a prerequisite for achieving over unity (but of course I can be wrong).
One thing is sure - the Ucros unit is less challenging to build but must be many times heavier for comparable power output of Ramos unit because it can only run at small speed. This would aper to make it unsuitable for deployment it in transport sector.

 

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2012, 02:01:21 AM »
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Offline Merg

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2012, 02:05:28 AM »
Fernando's Force Multiplier System = Veljko Milkovic's Patent YU 545 MP?

There were some remarks in discussions that this appeared to be related to the basics behind Veljko Milkovic's two stage mechanical pump.
It seems it is similar to the Veljko Milkovic's patent filled in 2002 and granted in 2003:

Hammer with an electric motor drive and rotating eccentric masses - YU 545 MP - MP-122/02
 
Abstract

A hammer driven by an electromotor with eccentric rotating masses, consists of the base (2) to which are attached: anvil (4), stand (20) to which is attached electromotor (17), stand (3) for the hammer with shaft (7) around which the rod (6) keeps rocking, and stand (1) of the chain with shaft (14) around which two-armed lever (9) is rocking. Above anvil (4) is mounted the head of the hammer (5) attached to the handle (6) while the opposite end of handle (6) is connected to lever (9) through the use of connecting plates (8. On both sides of lever (9) are mounted two pairs of eccentric masses (10) with shafts (11). One mass on each side has grooves around its circumference. Shaft (14) has bearing (13) and it serves to attach a wheel (15) which drives chain (16). Wheel (15) is firmly attached to shaft (18) of electromotor (17) by a forked coupling (19). Wheel (15) and eccentric masses (10) are connected by chain (16), where eccentric masses (10) are turned in such a way that the center of their masses are on the opposite sides of the lever (9) i.e. they are shifted for 180 degrees. On the two-armed lever (9) are also mounted idlers (12) which serve to control chain (16).

Full patent document with the patent drawings (in Serbian)
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Patenti/Veljko_Milkovic's_patent_Hammer_with_an_electro_motor_drive_and_rotating_eccentric_masses.pdf

Offline caccr2000

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2012, 08:11:44 PM »
hagan una pasada por este foro sobre este inventor

http://foro.redjedievolution.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=3397



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2012, 08:11:44 PM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #67 on: September 18, 2012, 03:25:30 AM »
hagan una pasada por este foro sobre este inventor

http://foro.redjedievolution.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=3397


Thank you caccr, however the patent seems to lose something in translation





 http://aplicaciones.indecopi.gob.pe/por ... lowing = 2010


Registry Data   Patent
Title:   FORCE MULTIPLIER SYSTEM
Date of Award:   30/05/2012   Maturity Date:   05/08/2030
Rating:   F03G 7/08
N ° Title:   6454   Publication Date:   16/07/2011
Priorities:   
Summary:   Comprising two parallel disks joined by a shaft, IN THE MIDDLE OF A BREAK THESE DISCS ARE PRESENTING A EXTRINCIDAD, in prolonging SHAFTS HAVE PLACED TWO STATES BY SHOOTING AXIAL SUPPORT, in turn is connected by BREAK COVER LIKE A PIECE INTERIOR symmetrical within convenient


Ron


Edit: sorry the full link didn't highlight, please cut and paste




Offline i_ron

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2012, 03:29:49 AM »



Hi all,


Here is a picture showing input and output on the same shaft. note the considerable weight
on the "flag", center mounted low, and the channel iron link extensions painted blue.


Note both motor and generator belt driven


Ron


Edit: Now what is surely puzzling to me is for the 'flag' --- if the big disc is about 8 inches dia of 1/2 inch plate and the small discs are about 5 inches of 3/4 inch plate the total weight is say 13 pounds. !3 pounds on a 18mm rod would last about 5 minutes at 1600 RPM before being flung across the room???




Offline gotoluc

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2012, 03:48:07 PM »

Edit: Now what is surely puzzling to me is for the 'flag' --- if the big disc is about 8 inches dia of 1/2 inch plate and the small discs are about 5 inches of 3/4 inch plate the total weight is say 13 pounds. !3 pounds on a 18mm rod would last about 5 minutes at 1600 RPM before being flung across the room???

Hi Ron,

I would agree that in normal circumstances the weight would fly off that size of shaft. However, maybe once all hits Resonance the destructive force transfers to the flywheels somehow?

Thanks for sharing

Luc

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2012, 03:48:07 PM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #70 on: September 18, 2012, 04:41:05 PM »


Referring to the JPG, filecdn above --- note the recycling of items as this progresses.


Use of the four original big flywheels (silver colored) comprised of a smaller disc with a larger ring disc tack welded to it in four places and in an attempt to balance the forces of the two probably alloy pulleys on the input/output shaft, the small blue flywheel(s) has been recycled and added to the second shaft.


Ron

Offline caccr2000

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2012, 05:49:47 PM »
http://www.4shared.com/rar/1QJOxzS6/multiplicador_fuerza.html

imagenes de lo primero presentado a indecopi clave del archivo lo encontraras en el foro viejo de redjedie



Offline i_ron

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2012, 11:02:07 PM »
http://www.4shared.com/rar/1QJOxzS6/multiplicador_fuerza.html

imagenes de lo primero presentado a indecopi clave del archivo lo encontraras en el foro viejo de redjedie


caccr,


Cuál es la contraseña por favor?


Ron

Offline caccr2000

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2012, 12:22:11 AM »

caccr,


Cuál es la contraseña por favor?


Ron

clave por este medio no las doy este documento es privado la clave las envio al interesado por via mensaje privado este documento es para no publicarlo es para uso de estudio y verificacion de si funciona o no.

ya te envie el link y la pagina en donde encontraras la clave

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Offline i_ron

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Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2012, 09:31:40 PM »
clave por este medio no las doy este documento es privado la clave las envio al interesado por via mensaje privado este documento es para no publicarlo es para uso de estudio y verificacion de si funciona o no.

ya te envie el link y la pagina en donde encontraras la clave


Thank you caccr, I understand why this must be


Gracias caccr, entiendo por qué esto debe ser


Ron

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Fernando`s Force multiplier
« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2012, 09:31:40 PM »

 

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