Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: Bob O'Neil Air Engine  (Read 38838 times)

Motorcoach1

  • elite_member
  • Sr. Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 307
Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« on: December 25, 2012, 09:33:33 PM »
   Over the last 5 years I've been working on some of my own engine designs. I looked at just about everything avalible on the Bob O'Neal designs and have been disappointed with many peoples explanations on how this engine runs. 
   Even though it said in the patent [ compressor ] that does not mean it runs on comprest air.  If you look closely at the drawings , you will see the check valves,  will not let compressed air into the cylinders.
   It takes much less work to pull a vaccume to do work , than try to compress volumes of air to do the same work. Compressed air in this operation is the waist product [exhaust] . This doest not mean we do not use some of this waist exhaust.   
 
    If their is more intrest this topic let mo know  via e-mail , Mike                             
   

AlanA

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2012, 10:44:12 AM »
Hi Motorcoach1,
your opinion is very intersting. I know the Bob Neal patent. I studied it years ago. But does not know if it works. Later I found the side of Scott Robinson (aircaraccess.com). I think you know them too. He seems to be very busy but could not replicate the Neal engine. It could also be that the Neal engine never worked ... :( Because there are tons of patents out ...

Greetings
Alana

Tom Booth

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • My Heat Engine Project
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2012, 06:23:07 PM »
   Over the last 5 years I've been working on some of my own engine designs. I looked at just about everything avalible on the Bob O'Neal designs and have been disappointed with many peoples explanations on how this engine runs. 
   Even though it said in the patent [ compressor ] that does not mean it runs on comprest air.  If you look closely at the drawings , you will see the check valves,  will not let compressed air into the cylinders.
   It takes much less work to pull a vaccume to do work , than try to compress volumes of air to do the same work. Compressed air in this operation is the waist product [exhaust] . This doest not mean we do not use some of this waist exhaust.   
 
    If their is more intrest this topic let mo know  via e-mail , Mike                             
 

I might be interested in discussing this here as I do have an interest in the topic, but why "via e-mail" ?

And anyway, it does not appear that you have provided any e-mail, here or in your profile.

Motorcoach1

  • elite_member
  • Sr. Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 307
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2012, 12:45:31 AM »
  [ personal messages get forwareded to my e-mail ]
 
  Thank you for the intrest in this subject. I'm sure most have studied the patents and know some history about this type engine. All I can say is patents do not contain Intaulectual Property.
 
  Ok lets get started on how I belive the air cycle works in [ 1 ] cylinder.
 
   We will start the cycle with the piston at BDC [ bottom dead center ]
   1- A vacume is now pulled in the cylinder pulling the piston up. As the piston is at TDC [ top dead center ] it will pull the strongest vacume. At this time the check valve in the head opens for about 1/5 of a second { based on 120 rpm's runnig }
 
   2- Say we have 3 cubic inches in the cylinder and that is being evacuated , as the piston reaches TDC and pulls full vacume the valve opens [ vaccume break ] and shuts within the 1/5th second we now have 3 and 1/8 cubic inches of air evacuared.  Maybe a little more air.
 
   3- Now that evacuated air is quite cold , cold air is dence and takes up a lot less space than hot air, and store it for future use say in 2 or 3 minutes.
 
 Lets go back to the head check valve opening for that 1/5 second.  As we evacuated the cylinder , we did not get all the ambiant air. The rest left in the cylinder is now an air spring to work for us at BDC. in the UP stroke.
 
 WILL COVER THE BOTTON PISTON STROKE IN ANOTHER TRANSMISSION . See if you can find maxwells demond in this thread.
 
 Cheers Mike
 PS; be nice or be gone you have been warned .................
 
   

Motorcoach1

  • elite_member
  • Sr. Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 307
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2012, 01:11:53 AM »
    This is part 2
 
  The ICE engine is a brute force combustion . The same engine modifed is more of a dance.
 
  1- We are at the TDC and returning the piston to BDC . Now lets take a look at that 1/5sec ambiant air intake [ the part that did not get evacuated ] . This is the eqlizer air spring keeping the piston floation as it hits BDC. or other wise keep things from collideing .
  2- During the pistion travel to BDC , it is being evacuated as in the up stroke , it has the little 1/5 damper [ air spring ]
 
  3- As the piston reaches the BDC stroke , we have our compressed air valve. [ remember that 1/5sec  ? , that cold air went to our insulated tank for future use ]
      Now we need to start the dance.
 
  4- We take some very cold condenced air from our insulated tank and as Bob Neil does [ but not in the patent ] we heat this air to inject in the BDC stroke to push the piston up.
      This has to be done at equal pressures on both sides of the piston [ the evacuated side as well as the pressure side ]- we have more compressed air at thie time than we can use so bleed off is nessasry. Remember no more compressed air than is nessary - the dance !
 
  AlanA ; I hope this answers your question about some of the workings on the tank.
 
  I hope to be building a working prototye soon , 1 cylinder runner.
  I have a line on good gast vane pumps cheep so send pm for info if you are building.
 
  thanks Mike        I use the kiss method.

Motorcoach1

  • elite_member
  • Sr. Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 307
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 10:50:28 PM »
here some info on air engines

Motorcoach1

  • elite_member
  • Sr. Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 307
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 10:56:45 PM »
Pleas post all question and comments in fourm as this will be open source invention
 
 Thanks Mike

AlanA

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 09:43:46 AM »
We need someone who has a good workshop to prove all this theories. There are too much papers out there ...

P. S. The inventors name is Bob Neal  ;) .


Tom Booth

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • My Heat Engine Project
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 08:18:37 PM »
In looking over the patent application, there are a few things I find somewhat puzzling which lead me to wondering if there are not some intentional blinds and/or omissions.

1. There doesn't seem to be any account of any exhaust from the power cylinders. That is, there are inlet ports and an outlet port, but where exactly the outlet port goes is not specified, as far as I can see. After driving the piston, does the compressed air get vented to atmosphere or is it recirculated back to the tank or what ?

2. There is an electric generator that powers some electric heaters situated at the power cylinder inlet, supposedly to bring the incoming air up above freezing ? This seems rather extraordinary to me. Why would the air from the tank be so cold ?

3. There is a water (cooling jacket) surrounding the compressor pistons. There are two water pumps with inlet and outlet pipes shown. It can be assumed, I suppose, that the hot water goes to some sort of external radiator to be cooled by the fan. The first illustration of the engine suggests that the water jacket probably continues to the front and around the power cylinders as there is no step in the side. That is, the jacket appears to be continuous but in the drawing of the power cylinders no water jacket is shown surrounding the power cylinders.

Anyway, after looking at all this for a while, I came up with an idea as to how this thing might work, but it is quite different from what is generally assumed, and it would depend upon the idea that there are some intentional omissions from the patent. That is, there was some intent to hide or keep secret the true mode of operation which, if I'm right, had nothing to do with any "special valve" or "equalizer" but rather with how this engine recirculates heat.

Anyone who has used an air compressor is no doubt aware of the tremendous amount of heat generated.

The water surrounding the compressor cylinders, we might assume, is scalding hot. Possibly superheated.

Apparently, for reasons to be touched upon later, the air in the tank is extremely cold.

Suppose this engine is not running on "compressed air" from the tank at all ?

Rather, VERY COLD air is being injected into the power cylinder and EXPANDED.

That is, the heat generated by the compressors is being circulated through the water jacket to heat the power cylinders. The cold air that enters the power cylinders picks up heat from the scalding hot water in the water jacket and expands rapidly.

This would mean that the ambient heat driven off from the air being compressed is being used to drive the engines power pistons.

It is fairly well known that when air is expanded while doing work at the same time it can get very very cold when exhausted.

If this cold air from the power pistons is being sent back to the air tank it might explain why the air coming back from the tank is so cold.

The reason then, that the air can be pumped back into the tank is not because of any special valve or any resonance or pulse jet effect or anything of the sort but simply because the engine is not running on compressed air at all. The tank is simply a COLD AIR STORAGE TANK. The pressure then, would be just enough to keep the air moving along. Pumped rather than actually pressurized.

The pressure to run the engine is developed AFTER the air enters the power cylinder. It is expanded by the heat generated by the compressors, delivered by the circulating hot water in the water jacket.

This is of course, speculative, like any other theory about this engine, but it makes sense to me. It is also not outside the realm of possibility in that no actual radiator or cooling system is shown. It might be assumed that the hot water taken from the compressor cylinders is actually cooled by being delivered to the power pistons to heat up and expand the apparently, very cold air returning from the tank so that no radiator is actually necessary.

As no account is given as to what happens to the very cold air leaving the power cylinders, it might be assumed that this goes back to the tank, which would explain why the air coming back from the tank is so extraordinarily cold as to need pre-heating by electric heaters just to bring it up above freezing.

In other words, the engine is not running on compressed air at all but rather on the ambient heat extracted while air is being compressed. The compressed air then would be available for other uses (the auxiliary tank briefly mentioned) while the cold air from the engine is simply being recirculated rather than compressed.

Tom Booth

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • My Heat Engine Project
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2012, 08:30:44 PM »
   Over the last 5 years I've been working on some of my own engine designs. I looked at just about everything avalible on the Bob O'Neal designs and have been disappointed with many peoples explanations on how this engine runs. 
   Even though it said in the patent [ compressor ] that does not mean it runs on comprest air. If you look closely at the drawings , you will see the check valves,  will not let compressed air into the cylinders.
   It takes much less work to pull a vaccume to do work , than try to compress volumes of air to do the same work. Compressed air in this operation is the waist product [exhaust] . This doest not mean we do not use some of this waist exhaust.   
 
    If their is more intrest this topic let mo know  via e-mail , Mike                             
 

Your comments about the check valves and how the engine apparently is being used to "pull a vacuum" got me thinking along different lines.

There is nothing, as far as I can see, telling where the water to chill the engine is coming from. For the sake of argument, lets say that the engine is circulating extremely cold water being drawn from a cold running stream.

What you say about the valves appears to be true. The engine is not compressing air. On the contrary, at least at one part of the cycle, it is, as you say "drawing a vacuum". Or rather, mechanically EXPANDING the air.

The valve at the top of the cylinder has what appears to be a very stout (strong) spring holding the valve closed. There is no valve lifter to open and close the valve. Therefore what this amounts to is a "throttling valve". At the same time the piston is going down expanding the air in the cylinder. Simultaneously the air is being chilled. Put all these processes together, Throttling, Mechanical expansion, and cooling, and what this is starting to look like is not a compressor at all but rather an Air Liquefaction machine.

All of these processes, rapid expansion, throttling and cooling are processes that are used for the liquefaction of air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefaction_of_gases

At a minimum, it seems that the combined effect would result in, if not actual liquefaction of the air, extreme COOLING of the air, which would result in its contraction. The air then is not being forcefully compressed, but rather COOLED to an extremely low temperature which could very well result in its condensation into a liquid.

If this were the case, of course there would be no possibility of the HEAT generated by compression being used for the power cylinders. There wouldn't be any heat generated by such a process of cooling by rapid expansion. But then, if the engine is cooling the air to such extremely low temperatures then there wouldn't be any need for using any such heat.

What you would have, in effect, would be a liquid air engine.

The liquid, or near liquid air delivered to the tank would pick up ambient heat causing the liquid air to "boil". Ambient heat alone would be enough to create the necessary pressure to drive the engine, possibly supplemented by the electric heaters at the air inlets of the power cylinders.

Here is an interesting article explaining how liquid air can be used to run an engine:

http://www.unz.org/Pub/McClures-1899mar-00397


Tom Booth

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • My Heat Engine Project
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2013, 06:57:51 PM »
One other thing that crossed my mind:

If any of the above speculations are even remotely accurate. That is, if the engine is delivering very cold air to the tank, which seems evident from the patent, (air coming from the tank is described as being below freezing) then I think this might explain how the "equalizer" works.

Liquid air would be around (minus) -196 degrees celsius ( - 320 F ).

If during 1/2/ the cycle the compressor were making liquid air and during the other 1/2 cycle cold compressed air, and these were mixed together and delivered to the tank the temperature of the air going to the tank could be as cold as -150 degrees Fahrenheit. Just to give us something to go on.

At any rate the air going to the tank would be darn cold.

The tank is sitting there surrounded by ambient air, so it would be warming up.

I'll call what goes from the engine to the tank "liquid air" though I doubt that would be the case, more a mix of cold compressed air and possibly liquified air. But any way, this very cold "liquid air" goes through the first check valve of the equalizer at say -100 degrees Fahrenheit. It would, presumably, immediately begin to warm up and expand as the air already in the tank would be considerably warmer. As the cold air, having passed the first check valve gets warmer and expands it would have nowhere else to go but into the tank.

As the air in the equalizer expands and does the "work" of pushing the air out into the tank, the air left behind, still in the equalizer would loose energy. It would tend to cool and contract, drawing more "liquid air" through the first check valve.

In other words it would act like a thermal expansion pump. Cold air goes past the first check valve, warms up, expands and pushes some air through the second check valve, contracts and draws in more cold air through the first check valve. Something like a coffee percolator.


Motorcoach1

  • elite_member
  • Sr. Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 307
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2013, 06:10:03 PM »
I stand corrected it's Bob Neil , no O .
Tom I stand with the same anoligy as you on the opperation. As for the exaust porting I'm just as puzzled.
 I understand most patents are not complete or things get ommited.
 To take the exhaust porting one step farther , I was looking for a weak spot in the piston movement. As the piston moves to mid point in the cylinder , there is chance of netural vaccume on both sides of the piston. So adding in a compressed hot air valve to the bottom of the cylinder would assist the piston in the up stroke , not affecting the evacuation process of the down stroke.
This would mean 2 evaccuation strokes, 1 up, 1 down and 1 compressed air assist , completing the cycle in one cylinder.

Motorcoach1

  • elite_member
  • Sr. Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 307
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2013, 06:21:23 PM »
Could not get the McClure file to open , if you have the PDF , please post it . Thanks Mike

Joe1

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2013, 05:04:20 AM »
      It takes much less work to pull a vaccume to do work , than try to compress volumes of air to do the same work. Compressed air in this operation is the waist product [exhaust] . This doest not mean we do not use some of this waist exhaust.   
 
Interesting discussion of the Neal machine, thanks Motorcoach.  I have a question about the above statement regarding work to pull a vacuum vs compress air.  Since 1 atm is at 14.7 psi, then any possible vacuum is limited to a pull of less than this amount of psi.  If a compressor is likewise limited, then it seems that the work for either choice would be equal.  Since the amount of energy stored in the air for use in a machine would be measured by how far the air pressure is moved away from 1 atm, it seems that positive pressures would be capable of much higher energy storage, since they are not limited in the extent of pressurization.  If the vacuum or compression are both within 14.7 psi of 1 atm, then either method would be capable of providing the same work.  Does that seem like a correct statement?

Joe1

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Bob O'Neil Air Engine
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2013, 05:20:25 AM »
1. There doesn't seem to be any account of any exhaust from the power cylinders. That is, there are inlet ports and an outlet port, but where exactly the outlet port goes is not specified, as far as I can see. After driving the piston, does the compressed air get vented to atmosphere or is it recirculated back to the tank or what ?
2. There is an electric generator that powers some electric heaters situated at the power cylinder inlet, supposedly to bring the incoming air up above freezing ? This seems rather extraordinary to me. Why would the air from the tank be so cold ?
3. There is a water (cooling jacket) surrounding the compressor pistons. There are two water pumps with inlet and outlet pipes shown. It can be assumed, I suppose, that the hot water goes to some sort of external radiator to be cooled by the fan. The first illustration of the engine suggests that the water jacket probably continues to the front and around the power cylinders as there is no step in the side. That is, the jacket appears to be continuous but in the drawing of the power cylinders no water jacket is shown surrounding the power cylinders.
Hello Tom,  this is an interesting discussion on Neal.  Here are some comments, what do you think?
1.  Most likely the power cylinder exhaust exits to the rear of the motor block, to the atmosphere.  It is drawn as the small square shape on figure 3, within the slide valve chamber.  On the left side of figure 3, the number 62 has an arrow leading to it.  This was identifed to me several months ago by a steam engine man, over at the Aircaraccess site.  Apparently this is how steam engines were constructed.
2.  Another explanation might be the use of a pre-heater, as is described in the old texts on compressed air engines.  Supposedly preheating the air produces more engine power with less input energy, as compared to simply compressing the inlet air to a higher pressure.  This method would provide higher efficiency.  Regarding item 3 below, if there is heat generated in the pipes, then that heat will be lost, which will result in a slow cooling of the block since the heating and cooling are no longer equal.  The electric preheater can be used to bring that back into balance.
3.  Since the machine includes both power expansion cylinders and compression cylinders, and each will provide the opposite temperature effect, then possibly the circulating water jacket is self contained within the block with no external radiator.  This would equalize all the temperatures, and save all energy that is flowing via heat within the block.