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Author Topic: Big try at gravity wheel  (Read 724371 times)

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #885 on: February 06, 2014, 02:01:12 AM »
You have the setup input cost, right?

Then you have the cost to move that potential DOWN into the lower cylinders, that would be the cycle cost, then those could rise UP into the position of the uppers and that would be the return, then you would have to move the potential back DOWN again.
Webby, the picture that I have is the one that you posted.  It has one inverted open cylinder on top of a piston, both submerged.  "Air" is pumped in underneath the inverted cylinder displacing water first in the annular gap then forming a bubble between the inverted cylinder and the piston until the gap is 15mm.  Unless I missed it, you did not state the mass of the of the open cylinder, nor did you place a load on top of it.  Since it has not floated, it must be heavier than the displaced water volume of 5.04gms.  So, we have displaced some water by pumping our incompressible mass that has the density of air.  The work we did identically converted into additional GPE of water in the overall container.  We have not completed a cycle yet, because we have not returned to a starting condition.  Please add any additional detail and states that you want.

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #886 on: February 06, 2014, 03:09:04 AM »
Webby, I have revised the drawing:
315mm depth instead of 300mm.
Added a stop 165mm above the bottom.
Massless and volumeless inverted cylinder with a density of water.  The reason for volumeless is so that we do not introduce displaced water volume from the cylinder body.  The reason for the density of water is that makes it neutrally buoyant.  These mythical properties keep the cylinder itself from contributing to the problem.

The cycle has to be acted upon one set of objects start to end.  We need to start in some state, do something and return to the original starting state.

If you want we can compare two machines one with and one without the piston and pump in air until each one rises against the stop.  If that is the proposal then I suggest further simplification of stipulating an infinitesimal clearance between the piston OD and the cylinder ID so that we only calculate "air" volume in the bubble above the piston.  An alternative is just to increase the diameter of the cylinder by a large multiplier while retaining the 0.38mm annular clearance so that the bubble volume above the piston is large compared to the portion of the bubble that is in the annular gap.

Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #887 on: February 06, 2014, 06:53:56 AM »
Just looking at my closeup screengrabs of the spring coupling, a consideration of the direction of the rotation wrt the spring's coils, and the shaft torque required to produce a couple of kW of power at 80 rpm......  This will tell you which unit is driving, and which unit is being driven. 

Tinsel, MarkE,
My point was, regardless of what is shown on a video (in todays world), it means Jack-Sh.. as any possible proof.
Everything hovers around a principle concept turned into a device. That knowledge is the key towards proof.
Not something you would be keen to admit, having the opposite denunciations plastered all over the thread.

That admission proof can also be seen in your fumbling your way back into the Wayne device, with pictures and all.   
Something must have clicked,    * Is it because you don't believe your own denunciations and you came to the realization that there is still a gem hidden in there you hadn't seen before ?

Good luck, I wish you find it.
Maybe Wayne 4xx ++ and my 4xx ++ posts weren't in vain.

Red_Sunset

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #888 on: February 06, 2014, 07:02:36 AM »
Tinsel, MarkE,
My point was, regardless of what is shown on a video (in todays world), it means Jack-Sh.. as any possible proof.
Everything hovers around a principle concept turned into a device. That knowledge is the key towards proof.
Not something you would be keen to admit, having the opposite denunciations plastered all over the thread.

That admission proof can also be seen in your fumbling your way back into the Wayne device, with pictures and all.   
Something must have clicked,    * Is it because you don't believe your own denunciations and you came to the realization that there is still a gem hidden in there you hadn't seen before ?

Good luck, I wish you find it.
Maybe Wayne 4xx ++ and my 4xx ++ posts weren't in vain.

Red_Sunset
Red_Sunset you posted the video link as support for your claims.  It didn't provide any support.  You can carry on as you have with back handed and/or direct insults.  If that's all you can come up with then so be it.  It's a poor substitute for actual evidence.

Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #889 on: February 06, 2014, 07:51:27 AM »
Red_Sunset you posted the video link as support for your claims.  It didn't provide any support.  You can carry on as you have with back handed and/or direct insults.  If that's all you can come up with then so be it.  It's a poor substitute for actual evidence. 

MarkE,
It is to our mutual benefit that we do no longer engage in communication,  we always appear to miss each others points.
I did not make any CLAIM, neither did I mention anything about support information.

The point was:
The Wayne skeptics have been demanding a video,  giving ZED working knowledge has been refused since it violates the conservation laws.

The reason for Wasif video was:
Here is a video with no other information, no working knowledge.

The conclusion
The Wasif video means less than nothing, because it provides nothing. It has no value without working knowledge.
The contradiction:  Although Wayne's skeptics think it is everything in the ZED case. 

It is immaterial if what was shown in the video is real or not, at this point it is an enigma
I hope you see the point
I do not want to discourage you with your current exploration of Wayne's piston but I hope you also see the point, that Yours & TKs current posts contradict your previous statements.

Red_Sunset

Marsing

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #890 on: February 06, 2014, 08:03:31 AM »
@ markE

 i don't get your calculation.

 - displaced water volume B, why do you calculate upper side  ( 135 mm not 15 mm )
 - why displaced water volume is A + B  not A - B.

according to your pict, total of displaced water must less than displaced volume A.


MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #891 on: February 06, 2014, 08:03:35 AM »
MarkE,
It is to our mutual benefit that we do no longer engage in communication,  we always appear to miss each others points.
I did not make any CLAIM, neither did I mention anything about support information.

The point was:
The Wayne skeptics have been demanding a video,  giving ZED working knowledge has been refused since it violates the conservation laws.

The reason for Wasif video was:
Here is a video with no other information, no working knowledge.

The conclusion
The Wasif video means less than nothing, because it provides nothing. It has no value without working knowledge.
The contradiction:  Although Wayne's skeptics think it is everything in the ZED case. 

It is immaterial if what was shown in the video is real or not, at this point it is an enigma
I hope you see the point
I do not want to discourage you with your current exploration of Wayne's piston but I hope you also see the point, that Yours & TKs current posts contradict your previous statements.

Red_Sunset
Red_Sunset as to the Wasif video there is no enigma.  It is a terribly bad fake.  There is a whole thread on it where it has been discussed extensively.  If that is your idea of evidence comparable to Wayne's double talk then you have shot yourself in the foot or worse.

Wayne hasn't offered any evidence of surplus energy for any version of ZED, TAZ or any other device proposed by HER.  Neither have you offered any evidence of surplus energy from any buoyancy machine.  The curtain blew away a long time ago revealing that there was never anything there.  You can put on as brave as a face as you want.  A brave face is no substitute for evidence.

Marsing

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #892 on: February 06, 2014, 10:13:04 AM »
webby, did i miss the point ?.

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #893 on: February 06, 2014, 10:53:06 AM »
@ markE

 i don't get your calculation.

 - displaced water volume B, why do you calculate upper side  ( 135 mm not 15 mm )
 - why displaced water volume is A + B  not A - B.

according to your pict, total of displaced water must less than displaced volume A.
Marsing,  There are two places where "air" can displace water:  Volume A which is the cavity formed between the inverted cylinder and the top of the piston, and Volume B in the annular gap between the piston OD and the inverted cylinder ID.

I let the pump run until both cavities fill with "air".  Therefore the displaced water is the sum of the cavity volumes:  A+B.

Initially, the volume of the annular cavity is: (15mm^2 - 14.23mm^2) * pi/4 * 150mm ( full height of the piston ).
As we fill the cylinder rises 15mm, we can either calculate the cavity volume projected directly above the piston:  14.23mm^2 * pi/4 * 15mm as the added displacement, or we can get the same total result by taking the entire 15mm diameter "bubble" volume above the piston top surface and then calculate the annular cavity around the piston proper as now 135mm long.

So, using one method we get:

Annular ring:  (15mm^2 - 14.23mm^2) * pi/4 * 150mm
Bubble projected above piston:  14.23mm^2 * pi/4 * 15mm

Or, by the other method:
Annular ring: (15mm^2 - 14.23mm^2) * pi/4 * 135mm +
Entire bubble above piston:  15mm^2 * pi/4 * 15mm

Simple algebra shows that the two quantities are identical.

It is not necessary for both cavities to fill with "air" in order for the cylinder to rise to the stop.  The proposed cylinder composition is massless, volumeless, with an SG of 1.0.  Consequently, it is neutrally buoyant and can move anywhere up or down without an energy cost.  If we assume zero surface tension and friction between the cylinder and the water, then we only have to pump in an infinitesimal amount of "air" in order for the surrounding water to push that "air" up the annular ring until it encounters the underside of the cylinder top and then transmits the infinitesimal force of the displaced water to the cylinder causing it to accelerate ever so slowly towards the stop. 

minnie

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #894 on: February 06, 2014, 11:32:39 AM »



   Mark,
          In reply 962 is atmospheric pressure involved?
              Thank you,
                            John.

powercat

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #895 on: February 06, 2014, 11:46:46 AM »
MarkE,
It is to our mutual benefit that we do no longer engage in communication,  we always appear to miss each others points.
I did not make any CLAIM, neither did I mention anything about support information.

You're the one missing the point, and yes you are making a CLAIM, you claim that Wayne's device works and produces excess energy, you also claim you know how to make over-unity, there are only two people that agree with you,  Wayne and the $2000 member, the rest of us challenge you to produce some proper evidence. 


As for the rest of your post.

TinselKoala

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #896 on: February 06, 2014, 12:01:18 PM »
MarkE,
It is to our mutual benefit that we do no longer engage in communication,  we always appear to miss each others points.
I did not make any CLAIM, neither did I mention anything about support information.
You have indeed made many CLAIMS wrt Travis and his alleged devices. Just like Travis did, when the going gets tough for you, you want to stop communicating instead of supporting your CLAIMS with solid data, logical arguments, checkable outside references to valid sources, and repeatable demonstrations of your own.
Quote
The point was:
The Wayne skeptics have been demanding a video,  giving ZED working knowledge has been refused since it violates the conservation laws.
In the first place that is not a grammatical English sentence so I can only attempt to decode it.
In the second place you are, as usual, misrepresenting what is being said to you. What "the Wayne skeptics" have been demanding is NOT a video "giving Zed working knowledge". We have videos of a couple of Travis's devices "working" already, and we had the Flash animation that he has removed, after the name change and the lawsuit. What we are demanding is _data that supports the claims_ and that can be verified and repeated independently. That is, the usual stuff that anyone demands from anyone else with a radical claim. We would especially like to see, up close and personal, the "simple three layer system that is clearly overunity by itself" (Travis's own words). Yes, a video of that system, along with some data that supports the OU claim made for it, would be helpful. But why didn't Travis show this system to Mark Dansie on either of his site visits? Why haven't we ever seen anyone's report of this system? I know why, and so do you: it doesn't exist.

Quote
The reason for Wasif video was:
Here is a video with no other information, no working knowledge.

The conclusion
The Wasif video means less than nothing, because it provides nothing. It has no value without working knowledge.
On the contrary, the video provided sufficient information to determine that the device is faked, not doing what the claimant said it is doing. As usual the video revealed more than the (amateur) hoaxer wanted to reveal. The type and extent of the deformation of the SPRING SHAFT COUPLING clearly shows that the "generator" is driving the "magnet motor", not the other way around. Had the claimants not inadvertently provided close-ups of the spring in the two conditions, running and not running, we would not be certain, but the spring is, to my mind, a definite "tell" that blows Kahloon out of the water entirely. Like Mylow's fishing line drive, only even easier to see once you know what to look for.

Quote
The contradiction:  Although Wayne's skeptics think it is everything in the ZED case. 
Your strawman raises its head again. No contradiction. Any video is bound to reveal as well as to conceal. The videos we have of the Travis items in action reveal much that Travis didn't intend, and do indeed contain "tells", but they are not necessary and aren't what "Wayne's skeptics" really want, as discussed above.

Quote

It is immaterial if what was shown in the video is real or not, at this point it is an enigma
I hope you see the point
If you are talking about Kahloon's video.... whether his device is real or not is certainly NOT immaterial, and his videos are indeed very informative and are not "enigmas" at all. They clearly show, as I have explained, the "smoking gun" that proves his fakery, if not exactly how power is delivered to the system. But even without that there is still much information in those videos that raises doubt, and not much that makes one confident in the claims.
Quote
I do not want to discourage you with your current exploration of Wayne's piston but I hope you also see the point, that Yours & TKs current posts contradict your previous statements.

Red_Sunset

Or rather, your fake interpretations and misrepresentations of our posts do. 

Your tactics are so transparent, Red. 

Marsing

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #897 on: February 06, 2014, 12:27:02 PM »
....... and Volume B in the annular gap between the piston OD and the inverted cylinder ID.
ok, i see,
 
i did not think there was a gap nor cylinder is volumeless.
so i thought there is only Volume A filled  with air.

with that condition, i agree displaced water : A + B   

next, same as minnie, i see no atmospheric pressure involved.

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #898 on: February 06, 2014, 12:36:34 PM »


   Mark,
          In reply 962 is atmospheric pressure involved?
              Thank you,
                            John.
Minnie, because everything is submerged in the local atmosphere, and we have stipulated no compressible materials, the local atmospheric pressure cancels out of any work.  For example air taken from just above the water to pump down is at 1 ATM, and the total pressure at the bottom of the tank is the weight per sq cm of the water plus 1 ATM.  So the work done pumping air down is still just the weight of the displaced water multiplied by the height of the water.

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #899 on: February 06, 2014, 02:11:58 PM »
Lets keep going this way, this is how I keep going about it.

I got a little lost in the responses since my last,, oh well.

Here is a graph from a ZED run.
Webby what are those supposedly representing:  Measurements?  If so of what, taken where?
Is the horizontal axis time, or displacement or?

I think that we now have a starting condition and state 2 drawing that we can refer to that meets your intent.  If not I am happy to continue to refine the drawing until it does.  If the drawing does not require more updates, then are we going to go from the starting condition to state 2 and back to the starting condition, or will se start and end at state 2?