Author Topic: Big try at gravity wheel (Read 724358 times)

conradelektro · « **Reply #945 on:** February 08, 2014, 01:21:31 PM »

Quote from: minnie on February 08, 2014, 01:11:49 PM

Sunset,
dunno about the production line, sounds as if he's moving in to a Portacabin
John.

Porta is good, but Cabin is not the way to go. The money is in Potti.

http://www.portapotti.com.au/press_release

Greetings, Conrad

Red_Sunset · « **Reply #946 on:** February 08, 2014, 01:30:52 PM »

Quote from: MarkE on February 08, 2014, 12:32:40 PM

Webby the video demonstrates the 2000 year old Archimedes' Principal that it takes an identical displaced volume of water to produce the same amount of buoyant force. The set-up on the left displaces with a combination of a cement insert and surrounding air. The set-up on the right relies entirely on air to displace water. In both cases, the air transmits the force of the displaced water to the underside of the cups. The focus that Tom Miller places on the air is entirely misdirection.

MarkE,

If you go back to post of 1+ week ago, it was said that the video only demonstrates the 2000+ year old Archimedes principle paradox , straight up and inverted. Nothing new here, the only bonus is the most optimum fluid volume quantity that needs to be managed. You are correct about the stroke displacement volume requirement will equal equivalent energy input.
It is beneficial to see the water column and displacement as 2 separate entities. Water column is force and its volume is of a setup nature and a loss factor and the displacement volume is of a dynamic nature and equals energy. In essence, the paradox keeps the loss factor to a minimum, but you still need to pay the piper.

What Wayne did is to integrate the displacement quantities for the outer surfaces in the water column pre-provisioining and with this setup shares the displacement cost although that doesn't come for free, he pays for it in pressure increase which evens the score. The displacement sharing and pre-provisioning principle therefore do not gain you anything beyond an efficiency improvement.
What is does do is to give you the possibility to control you lift, by pressure control you can determine at what ratio the lift takes place, bi-directionally. in a non-linear fashion. Because of the bi-directional property, the need for a dual setup is without doubt the best solution to handle this energy exchange and the rest is history

Red_Sunset

minnie · « **Reply #947 on:** February 08, 2014, 01:52:50 PM »

Yes,the rest is history..........and then nothing happens!
John

minnie · « **Reply #948 on:** February 08, 2014, 02:26:28 PM »

Hi,
would anyone agree with this statement? If you have identical cyliners you have to more
than 1 on your initial stroke.
John.

TinselKoala · « **Reply #949 on:** February 08, 2014, 05:38:28 PM »

If you make too many idealizations you lose contact with reality and can wind up "proving" all kinds of non-physical things. For example, many of my constructions would run "forever".... if I could only neglect bearing friction, air resistance, eddy current drag, and the influence of gay pixies on my herd of pink unicorns, etc.

minnie · « **Reply #950 on:** February 08, 2014, 06:02:46 PM »

Webby,
what I meant was, if you've got identical cylinders you've got to have
OU from the first stroke, otherwise your pre-charge will just slowly run down.
John.

MarkE · « **Reply #951 on:** February 09, 2014, 12:30:50 AM »

Quote from: webby1 on February 08, 2014, 02:16:20 PM

To start with, this is NOT OU. This is a step and there are 2 more after this.

Start with the cylinder in state2 with all of the volume under the cylinder filled with as much air as can be stuffed into it.

How much energy it takes to do this does not matter at all, it is like filling your tires with air, you do not need to add any more air into your tire just because you rolled a few feet down the road,, it is an environmental component.

I use a straight transfer pump connected between the top of the 2 cylinders, a transfer pump is a sealed chamber with a piston in it so that when the piston is on one side the other side has enough volume to hold the medium of one unit, then when slid over to the other side it pushes that volume out and into the unit it is connected to and at the same time will pull in the medium from the unit connected to the other side of the pump. simple.

You can figure out the weight that the cylinder can lift at full fill, place this weight on the starting condition cylinder and transfer the potential from the state2 cylinder into the starting condition cylinder, this is the cost of cycle.

I come up with an 83 percent efficient transfer this way and a 33 percent efficient transfer for an open cylinder, that is no filler.

Webby, I am happy to set up whatever you want but it would be helpful for you to describe what it is in more detail so that we do not have to keep going back and forth.

I have attached a new drawing that represents what I think you are describing.

Where do you intend to place a payload and when? I hope that you understand that in order to get all of the "air" from the "B" cylinder on the right to the the "A" cylinder on the left we will have to add even more energy than we put in filling the "B" cylinder. If we just open a valve through the transfer pump after filling the "B" cylinder, then "air" will transfer until the pressures equalize between "A" and "B".

As to Video #5 the video shows additional work was applied in order to get from one state to another for each of the cups. It did not account the initial work, nor did it complete a cycle. It was as silly as releasing a cocked spring and saying: "See free energy!". Tom Miller's representation that the cup with the cement insert represented anything other than Archimedes' Principle in action was a bald faced lie.

In order to perform an energy balance we need all four values for a complete cycle: Energy at start, energy added, energy removed, and energy at the end.

MarkE · « **Reply #952 on:** February 09, 2014, 01:11:44 AM »

Quote from: webby1 on February 09, 2014, 01:03:52 AM

MarkE,

At this point the payload will be placed on A, the system allowed to communicate the potential from B into A and then the additional energy required to complete the transfer and subsequent change in height of A.

This sets the cost of cycle and sets the output value.

This is where I come up with an 83 percent efficiency.

I also come up with a 33 percent efficiency for an open cylinder doing the same thing.

Webby, please specify the payload you would like to lift: Mass and SG.

Marsing · « **Reply #953 on:** February 09, 2014, 02:47:11 AM »

Quote from: minnie on February 08, 2014, 06:02:46 PM

Webby,
what I meant was, if you've got identical cylinders you've got to have
OU from the first stroke, otherwise your pre-charge will just slowly run down.
John.

how can you come to that conclusion minnie ? seem you know a whole process

Marsing · « **Reply #954 on:** February 09, 2014, 02:50:24 AM »

Quote from: Grimer on February 08, 2014, 08:07:30 AM

...................... there are four new photos.....................................

any LINK for the Photos?

MarkE · « **Reply #955 on:** February 09, 2014, 03:33:13 AM »

The pictures can be found here: http://www.rarenergia.com.br/

minnie · « **Reply #956 on:** February 09, 2014, 09:24:32 AM »

Marsing,
I don't know how it works. Just using logic, if you've got two identical cylinders
it's a bit like a see-saw, you have to give it a bit of help every time or it'll just stop.
Unless anyone has a plan of a working device all any of us can do is surmise, I really
would like to see someone get to the bottom of this!
John.

minnie · « **Reply #957 on:** February 09, 2014, 09:39:13 AM »

Webby,
I was going to point out my take on the race video, but I see from your following
post that you've reached the same conclusion as me.
I don't know if those videos were made because of ignorance or were deliberately
intended to deceive.
I feel I'm learning a bit each day, we'll get there in the end!
John.

Marsing · « **Reply #958 on:** February 09, 2014, 10:08:43 AM »

minnie,

webby stated there are 3 steps for complete process, while with your statement can be said only 2 step, that's all..

and we can not in hurry.. i don't know WHY,

minnie · « **Reply #959 on:** February 09, 2014, 10:22:50 AM »

Marsing,
yeah, it's the bit of magic in the third step that we need to know.
I don't know if Sunset knows anything, I expect he'll sink beyond the
horizon for a fair while from now on.
John.

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Author Topic: Big try at gravity wheel (Read 724358 times)

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