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Author Topic: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage  (Read 26457 times)

Jeg

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Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« on: November 11, 2013, 11:10:58 AM »
Hi to all :)
I have build a switch consist of 3 IRFP460 Mosfets capable for switching voltages up to 1500V.
It is based on this....

http://www.google.gr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CF4QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcmosedu.com%2Fjbaker%2Fpapers%2F1992%2FRSI631992.pdf&ei=sqiAUuTXIaWK0AXi-4H4Bg&usg=AFQjCNFqStXAkoZnTDLSfnBlF4lZHTPwlQ&bvm=bv.56146854,d.d2k&cad=rja

After some tries and many destroyed mosfets i finally did it. The most difficult part was to calculate the exact parasitic capacitance values, so to open and close the stack the same time.

By the use of a weak output mosfet driver consisting of a 555 and a LM393 comparator for PWM, the stack opens but doesn't switch rail to rail. With 48V input to the mosfet from 4 X12V batteries, switches between 48V and 33V.
I suspect that it needs more current at the gate input so to fully charge the input capacitance and stay 'on' for a longer time period.

As for a start i would like to put a BD139 NPN transistor at the comparator output to drive the mosfet. I would use a totem pole but i don't have any readily PNP transistors. Do you think is enough for that job? Any drawbacks?

Thanks
Jeg

 

TinselKoala

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2013, 11:26:58 AM »
One wonders why you didn't simply use the exact circuit given as Figure 2 in the pdf you linked. It switches 1500 V, uses the dirt-cheap IRF840 mosfets, and common 2n3904 and 2n3906 transistors to drive. Just about any signal, like from your 555+comparator PWM, could feed the transistors, I suppose.

Jeg

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2013, 12:13:17 PM »
Hi Tinsel, tnks for the suggestion

My driver has an output of 12V peaks and that makes the input capacitance of IRFP460 as large as 41nF!. Perhaps I am wrong but i thought that i need Amber level peaks. I think i have some of them.. i'll try it tonight.

IRFP460 is my favorite one and i have many of them. It handles more current than IRF840 and this is very convenient to me.

TinselKoala

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2013, 08:10:13 PM »
Hi Tinsel, tnks for the suggestion

My driver has an output of 12V peaks and that makes the input capacitance of IRFP460 as large as 41nF!. Perhaps I am wrong but i thought that i need Amber level peaks. I think i have some of them.. i'll try it tonight.

IRFP460 is my favorite one and i have many of them. It handles more current than IRF840 and this is very convenient to me.
I use the P460 a lot too; it is the mosfet I use in my little 4MHz SSTC, and in some other projects, but your system's current demand will be determined by the load. The 840 system in the schematic apparently provides the maximum current that a 50 ohm load can draw from a 1500 volt source, and the scopeshot shows an impressively short risetime for the pulse. I don't know what the max frequency could be with that schematic, but I'm already working on a solid state Tesla Coil based on it.

I'll be very interested to see what your final project looks like. I love HV, but recently I've been working with low-voltage high current mosfets like the IRF3205, which can handle 110 amps in a TO-220 package, with Rdss of 0.008 Ohm. Daisy-chaining a few of those to get to higher voltage handling might make a real "killer" SSTC primary driver!

gyulasun

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2013, 11:15:23 PM »
Hi TinselKoala,

Would like to show you an oldy paper on a fast 8kV MOSFET switch, just some food for thought to daisy-chaining. The isolation between the low voltage input and the HV output side is partly solved by transmission line transformers, wound from RG316/U coax onto ferrite toroid cores.  You may wish to adopt the circuit to your high current MOSFETs, albeit the max 55V VDS for a single IRF3205 sounds a bit low when it comes to chaining.  For a bit higher price there is the max 100V, 100A type with 0.0051 Ohm Rdss, like IPP100N10S3 ( http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/IPP100N10S3-05/IPP100N10S3-05-ND/2081166 ).  Of course there are some other types, with different prices, digikey is not the cheapest of course.  (IRFP4310ZPBF is a 120A, 100V with Rdss=0.006 Ohm max) or this: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/PSMN8R5-100PSQ/568-10160-5-ND/3902745 )
I also understand if you have a different circuit topology for chaining MOSFET switches in series to increase breakdown voltage.

Here is the link and scroll down to the very bottom of the long page, the last line includes the pdf paper on the Fast 8kV MOSFET switch, just click on the letters PDF in the end of that line to get the file:
http://www.cchem.berkeley.edu/dmngrp/pubproject.htm 
♦ "Fast 8 kV MOSFET switch" R. E. Continetti, D. R. Cyr, and D. M. Neumark,  Rev. Sci. Instr.63, 1840 (1992)

Gyula

Jeg

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2013, 01:31:06 AM »
Wow gyulasun..i was trying many days to find this article. Tnks for the link.

Tinsel i finally did it. From what i learn until now...

1. I doubt that schematic in fig.2 in the link i posted above works as it is. It needs lowering the 10M resistances. The reason is the leakage current between Drain and source. With resistances so large like the 10M, the voltage that mosfet's share is not equal. With pots in the place of these resistances, i found out that my IRFP460 stack, equalize the voltage at about 80Kohm

2. 12V for pulsing is not a good idea. 18V is better because Ciss and Crss are much much smaller!

3. The 3904 and 3906 idea is fine up to about 2KHz in my 460 stack. After 2Khz the switch starts to close. The reason is that it needs power. MC1406/7 puts out enough Amber to charge quickly the input capacitance. The above transistors in the mA range are not enough. In addition, this transistor driver doesn't work with voltages lower than 120V as in my 48V case. In case of using this driver, you have to change the 470pF if you have different than 1500V supply.

Does anybody have a suggestion for a dc to dc boost converter? I'd like to make 12V to 500V or higher, for making a bigger supply for the stack.

Tnks
Jeg
     

TinselKoala

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 04:31:21 AM »
@Gyula: Thanks! That's a very interesting paper. I especially like the transmission line gate driver arrangement. My old TinselKoil 2 uses a similar toroidal gate transformer arrangement to produce the out-of-phase drive signals for the two halves of the final mosfet H-bridge which drives the primary. Supplying enough current to these transformers was a bit of a problem; I used another H-bridge of bipolar transistors as a current amplifier and they do run hot. I suppose I should have used mosfet driver chips...

@Jeg: Yep, I agree completely. Thanks for the note on the schematic; when I build I'll probably have to do a bit of optimizing and value substitution.  Good luck on your project, I really am curious as to what your final product will be.

Jeg

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2013, 09:11:01 AM »
Tinsel do you have a proposal for making high voltage supply with mosfets? I don't like transformers for some reason! :D

In the attached picture you can see  a stack of 14 Mosfets capable for handling up to 7000V. At least in theory... cause until now i have burned twice the hole stack. (28MOsfets!!!) My electr. components supplier is making good business with me! :D

fritz

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2013, 11:29:01 AM »
very cool. congrats.
Using a cascade with HV diodes in combination with a H-bridge would give you some flexibility on voltage (#cascades + h bridge supply voltage) as well as current limiting (switching frequency).
rgds.

gyulasun

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2013, 11:57:05 AM »
...
Does anybody have a suggestion for a dc to dc boost converter? I'd like to make 12V to 500V or higher, for making a bigger supply for the stack.


Hello Jeg,

You may find this link useful:  http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/31833/3v-to-500v-dc-converter

It refers to an EDN design idea article on a 1kV DC upconverter from 12V: http://www.edn.com/design/power-management/4334168/1-kV-power-supply-produces-a-continuous-arc

This page may also serve some food for thought: http://www.eleccircuit.com/dc-power-supply-300v-from-battery-12v/

Gyula

Jeg

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2013, 01:18:48 PM »
Hey guys, i really appreciate your help! I already started reading these!

Thanks again ;)

fritz

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Jeg

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2013, 11:21:35 AM »
Fritz :)
I think i 'll give a try with the ign. coil cause it's simple and quick! Thanks a lot.

Well, another obstacle occurred. As i told before, i have made a stack with 3 IRFP460 Mosfets and works like a charm. It switches 48V rail to rail and it has 1500V for avalanche for charging a coil and creating high voltage spikes (coil reaction after closing the switch). The problem is when i connect the coil in place of the Load resistance. It just doesn't work. It doesn't do anything. It reacts as a short circuit! The coil is an air coil and it is about 127μH! It seems that the switch doesn't like inductance. It's like that affects the input parasitic capacitance of the extra mosfets. I discard one of the three mosfets, and the problem still exists. It works only with one mosfet!
If i will not find the cause of this i will give a try with one IGBT at 1200V.
Any suggestions?

Thanks
Jeg     

fritz

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2013, 12:41:23 PM »
Hi Jeg,

What concerns the ignition coil supply - I´d like to point out that you should operate that from batteries or isolation transformer. Be careful.

Mosfet Stack:
If you apply 48 Volts to a 127uH coil - you reach 0,4A within a microsecond, 4A within 10 microseconds.
If you triple the load capacity of the fet driver by stacking 3 fets - it takes probably triple the time to charge the gates.
So I would run for proper integrated mosfet driver for each fet.
For fast switching a driver capable of 1A peak.
I personally use FAN3100 from fairchild - thats a sot23-5 package - maybe to small for your flavour.
The "old school" way (for people using 555s) was to take 4049 or 4050 CMOS chips (inv or noninv.) and connect all gates in parallel,
or simply enhance current sourcing by using 2n2222 2n2907 complementary stage.

rgds.








Jeg

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Re: Mosfet stack for higher breakdown voltage
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2013, 01:14:45 PM »
The old school way seems to fit to my needs! ;) I will re design it today. Thanks Fritz!

About the ignition coil, i will follow your advice by feeding it through a mosfet!

Thanks again!