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Author Topic: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.  (Read 183020 times)

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #135 on: November 27, 2007, 10:20:56 AM »
Another report.

I received the Metglas alloy 2605SA1 but I was disappointed to see how thin is acctually is.
It is 0.0009" and to form it into the electromagnet shape I would like to test, was impossible.
I performed some more research and I found another alloy called PERMAX M.
The permeability is 110000 and it handles 1.5T saturation. I have asked for samples on this alloy.
It can be delivered in 0.2mm thick laminates.

Meanwhile I found out that every harddisk contains 2 plates of Mu-Metal alloy.
This alloy have high permeability at approx 150000 and handles 0.8T.
I managed to collect the old HDD:s at my work. During this week I will salvage all of the Mu-Metal
plates and then mill them into the shape I desire. Hopefully there will plenty of Mu-Metal.

I need to build a test rig to see what power levels I will have to feed to the electromagnets during the attraction/repel pulse.
-----------------------------------
Update:
I have now salvaged a lot of the assumed Mu-Metal.
There seem to be two types. One that has yellowish color, and another ordinary silverish type.
Are both of these types Mu-Metal? Or is one of them some other type of alloy, or perhaps just plain iron?
I ask you guys here. Some of you might know the answer!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 01:12:34 PM by Honk »

Dr. Tesla

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #136 on: November 28, 2007, 11:51:26 AM »
Honk,

Some months ago I saw that material in my friend's workshop. To my recollection it was grey-silver in appearance. The yellow one could be just brass or zinc-plated steel. If no one posts a definite answer, you'll probably have to test both of them...

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #137 on: December 05, 2007, 08:02:34 AM »
I just bought these mu-metal boxes from ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190177879791&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123
When they arrive I will cut and mill them into an electromagnet core.

I need to perform the important electromagnet test to measure the required power level to match a solenoid to the flux levels of a ndfeb magnet.
Just to be on the safe side I have decided to use N24SH magnets in the Stator and N50 or N52 in the Rotor.
The N24 flux level is approx 1.05T and the N52 is 1.45T.
By weakening the Stator and increasing the Rotor strength it will be a lot easier to make the solenoid electromagnet match the N24 Stator magnets.

I have also three other types of high permeability alloys coming in as samples.
One of the types is very interesting, as it is capable of both strong flux levels and high permeability. A rare combination.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 08:26:58 AM by Honk »

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #138 on: December 20, 2007, 11:27:23 PM »
I better give you all an update on how the motor design is proceeding.

Early next week I will receive both Mumetal and Permenorm 5000 H2 in letter sized shets. They were out of type S4.
Mumetal at 1mm thickness and Permenorm at 2mm thickness.
I have found out that the material will need final heat annealing after being cut to obtain the full permeability.
I will laser cut the alloy into the desired test shapes and then the deliver company will heat anneal the parts for free.

When the Solenoid vs Ndfeb strength test result is ready I will know if my design needs some last minute changes.
I guess this will happen mid january. Shortly after that I'll order the magnets.

acp

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #139 on: December 21, 2007, 08:24:32 AM »
I'm very interested in this design Honk, Thanks for the update.

leeanderthal

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #140 on: December 28, 2007, 02:59:08 AM »
I am very interested in this design.  I've read all of the posts regarding the FBDISSM and Iam still puzzled about one thing.  How can the rotor magnets be oriented the way shown in the diagram?  I've tried building a stack of magnets oriented with all of the poles facing in the same direction and they don't like it at all.  they repel each other.  Some insight would be appreciated.

Ray

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #141 on: December 28, 2007, 10:48:15 AM »
The rotor magnets is no problem in this motor. They are located to far away from each other to be in any repel mode.
But the stator magnets, on the other hand, will be strongly repelled away from the closest neighbour magnets.
This is why I keylock the magnets into place. This prohibits them from slipping around and also from getting
janked out of place by the strong attraction forces between rotor and stator magnets.
It is no problem that the stator magnets are being repelled by each other. It will not damage them at all.
Once mounted all of the stator magnets will form a long wall of uniform magnetic field.
And then the rotor magnets will travel along this uniform field towards the narrow end where they would stop if it
hadn't been for the electromagnet that helps the rotor magnet past the sticky spot.

leeanderthal

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #142 on: December 28, 2007, 03:27:28 PM »
Thanks Honk,

I mistyped, I meant stator not rotor.  Another thought,  If the majority of work in this system is done by the interaction of the rotor and the spiral configuration of the stator magnets and not by the EM's then couldn't an electric motor or some other source of power with X amount of horsepower be connected directly to the FBDISSM without the EM's (in which case it would become just a SSM) and have a power output greater than X ?

Ray

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #143 on: December 28, 2007, 04:14:13 PM »
Pehaps you need to clarify this to me!
If I get you right, then your'e meaning that motor connected to the shaft shall assist the rotor to overcome the sticky spot instead of a EM.
If so it must be pulsed at the end positions. But I don't think that will work any good. The forces are tremendously high at the sticky spot.
The braking is calculated to 350lb. Kind of hard and inefficent to overcome that spot by brute force.

leeanderthal

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #144 on: December 28, 2007, 05:25:48 PM »
Pehaps you need to clarify this to me!
If I get you right, then your'e meaning that motor connected to the shaft shall assist the rotor to overcome the sticky spot instead of a EM.
If so it must be pulsed at the end positions. But I don't think that will work any good. The forces are tremendously high at the sticky spot.
The braking is calculated to 350lb. Kind of hard and inefficent to overcome that spot by brute force.
Yes, that is what I mean.  If a motor is used to overcome the sticky spots, the power that the motor produces in between the sticky spots is going to be added to the power produced by the SSM and is not going to be wasted.  Excess power can be stored in a flywheel to help overcome the high forces at the sticky spots.

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #145 on: December 28, 2007, 09:42:54 PM »
Well, perhaps that could work. Feel free to build it and please report your findings here at OU forum.
I'll bet my own money on the high permeability solenoid electromagnet solution.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 10:23:22 PM by Honk »

leeanderthal

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #146 on: December 28, 2007, 10:26:42 PM »
I might just try it.  It may be possible that a pulsing high permeability solenoid electromagnet is fractionally more efficient than a BLDC motor but considering the circuitry and control of the EM the motor seems to be way simpler for my money.  Once the machine is proven, efficiency can be worked on. Be very careful assembling the stator magnets.  Sounds like it could be dangerous.  Keep up the good work.

Ray

Schpankme

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #147 on: January 01, 2008, 03:19:12 AM »
Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.Turbo     ;)

Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #148 on: January 11, 2008, 11:13:41 PM »
Today I performed some more Solenoid vs NdFeb matching tests to see how much the sticky spot is weakened
by the applied parallel magnetic field. The more the stickyness is weakened, the more the motor output is increased.
My powersupply could only feed 180W into the coil but this was enough to slash the stickyness by one third.
I intend to use pulses at approx 600-700W and this should soften the tough sticky spot a lot more.
Perhaps as much as three quarters weaker if lucky. These test were made using an ordinary steel core.
Later when the High Permeability Ni-alloy core is processed and ready to be wound I will get even better results.

I'm slowly but steadily making progress in the FBDISSM development.
The Flip-Field Flux-Booster controller schematic is finished and ready to be cadded into a PCB layout.
This new controller will deliver heavy duty currents (60amps) to the Solenoids at very fast rise times.

Edit: Just to clarify things about the power consumption. The solenoids will only run at 600W for a very short time.
        I have calculated the average ON time to about 20-25% for all six rotorheads in one revolution.
        This will result in each Solenoid dissipating 120-150W. They will be fan cooled via inserted copper fins to help conduct heat.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 04:41:07 PM by Honk »

Low-Q

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #149 on: January 12, 2008, 01:27:47 AM »
Honk,

When you're finished whith this motor, could you (just as an experiment) maybe remove all the stator magnets and keep the electromagnet to see if the rotor produce less amount of power? Should be an easy way to determine if the motor goes OU or not with the stator magnets in place.

Br.

Vidar