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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo  (Read 559967 times)

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5715 on: February 23, 2012, 01:46:17 AM »
Yes, well, not good enough for me.
And it turns out the same company ( www.plasticareinc.com ), and local store, DOES have a CNC machine.
So I ordered three more rotors; cut from 1/2" lexan instead of acrylic.
I ordered three because most of the cost is for set-up and just a little more for the extra materials.
Going to cost $100 for three precision rotors.

On a side note:
As I disassembled my 1/4" stator plates I discovered that a few of the 3m mounting tapes were not holding very well.
The rest were pretty solid but I do have a concern these mounting tapes are just not sufficient; especially since the rotor magnets are constantly pulling on them.
So the new, 1/2", stator plates will have the coils glued/welded directly to the plates.
Which will be stronger, safer, and not have any foam "cushion" or movement under the coils.

Guess I'll just have to fabricate new stator plates if I want to try a different coil configuration.

That is all for now.

}:>




Hi Scorch and all
Your rotor looks just like mine; the same laser cut not perfect vertical.

Konehead



Free Energy - Freie Energie - energia libre - OverUnity.com

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5715 on: February 23, 2012, 01:46:17 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5716 on: February 23, 2012, 02:30:16 AM »
Hey Scorch

may be better to glue the coils to small thin plexy plates that can be then attached to the larger mounting plates. Its cheaper and easier if you have to make changes. Coil modules. ;]  Plastic/nylon screws/bolts from home depot or lowes to attach the modules.

Mags

Free Energy - Freie Energie - energia libre - OverUnity.com

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5716 on: February 23, 2012, 02:30:16 AM »

Offline mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5717 on: February 23, 2012, 08:59:14 AM »
Hi guys

I have removed the coil from the rotor and the rpm went higher than before. So the magnet was just neutralising the litlle drag produced by the core. I'm removing the video

Offline crazycut06

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5718 on: February 23, 2012, 11:30:31 AM »
Hey Scorch

may be better to glue the coils to small thin plexy plates that can be then attached to the larger mounting plates. Its cheaper and easier if you have to make changes. Coil modules. ;]  Plastic/nylon screws/bolts from home depot or lowes to attach the modules.

Mags
Hi Scorch,
    I agree with mags, also we need to have an adjustable coil, so we can easily adjust the distance of each coil.

Free Energy - Freie Energie - energia libre - OverUnity.com

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5718 on: February 23, 2012, 11:30:31 AM »

Offline mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5719 on: February 23, 2012, 03:56:23 PM »
Hi all

I have seen in mr. R videos a type of bifilar coil that cancels eachother the output. But when adding a magnet behind the coil there is output. i have found a sweat spot that doesn't affect the rpm when the leds are lit. The coils in the video are using this principle but i'll make one for further experiments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocrpEpL-D9M&feature=youtu.be

Offline konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5720 on: February 23, 2012, 09:38:28 PM »
Hi Mariu
I assume the coil then is series-adding bifilar, and series "Cancelling" too? Then when you add magnet, it then makes voltage?
the quesiton is, is the magnet ITSELF causing the speed up, reacting to the rotor magnets?
And is the cancelling of lenz affect in the coil under load becasue of the magnet making rotor go up in speed.
But, lenz is sort of still there but is being "cancelled-out" by the speed up instead of slow-down as is usual - all because of those magnets....
try to get that magnet to speed up rotor all on its own, no coil in front of it, no core in front of it...I can do this all the time lately big time speed up too...
Also dont forget the flat steel washer back there - I think that has alot do do with it not sure why though.

Free Energy - Freie Energie - energia libre - OverUnity.com

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5720 on: February 23, 2012, 09:38:28 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5721 on: February 23, 2012, 10:01:44 PM »
Hi Doug,

What I see from the latest video from Marius the rpm of the rotor does not change when he places the magnet stack behind the coil.  And this seems to be a good direction, especially if he connected the bifilar coil in series cancelling direction where the output voltage is less than half a volt unloaded and without the backing magnets and nearly 1.9V loaded by the leds with the backing magnets and 3V unloaded and with the backing magnets in place:  during all this the rpm stays.
I think what may happen here is that the Bloch wall is "marching" in the core in a dircetion lengthwise when the backing magnets are in place and any one rotor magnet passes the core, this is the flux change causing unbalance in the bifilar induction. 
Perhaps using some further similar cores with the same number of bifilar coils with backing and connecting them both first parallel (as Romero did via the diode bridges) and in series too to see if rpm is affected or not. What do you think (if you consider the bifilar in series cancel mode)?
Yes, the washers effect is also important.

Thanks,  Gyula

Free Energy - Freie Energie - energia libre - OverUnity.com

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5721 on: February 23, 2012, 10:01:44 PM »

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5722 on: February 23, 2012, 10:06:36 PM »
Interesting proposal. Not sure if this may be 'better'.

May I analyze this?

As it is now; the current stator plates are just plain, acrylic disks, that each have 4 mounting holes and 1 bearing hole therefore only takes a few minutes to fabricate then use acrylic weld cement to attach the coils.
And, if current coils are unsatisfactory, have to set that aside and build a new pair of stator plates complete with coils.

Am I to understand the new proposal is as such?
Build the same plates, but also use additional materials to fabricate 18 acrylic mounts, drill 72 additional holes, tap 36 holes to accept nylon, machine thread, screws, cement coils to said mounts, install mounts with screws, while, at the same time, making sure everything is still perfectly aligned and no gaps under mounts, or movement around screws,.
And, if coils are unsatisfactory, have to either re-wind or install new coils onto 18 new acrylic mounts, complete with 36 new holes and reinstall 36 screws.

This is cheaper and easier?!?

Interesting plan, for additional fabrication and versatility, and I will certainly consider this proposal in the future.
But, for right now, my plan is to make my current creation actually work and won't need to replace the stator, EVER.

NEVER EVER!
It WILL work!!! :)

Disclaimer:
The opinions, and positions, of the persona 'Scorch' are not, necessarily, the opinions, or positions, of this Creator.

}:>

PS:
Who says coils have to have round ends?
If I am going to fabricate acrylic mounting plates; why not just make oval, or rectangular, coil ends with mounting holes and completely eliminate glue?

Now THIS may actually be easier!
Instead of cutting circles; can simply cut strips and cut the strips, to the desired length, and drill the same hole, for the ferrite rod, plus mounting holes.
This would also provide an easy way to mount coil bobbins (with no center hole) onto a winding jig.


Hey Scorch

may be better to glue the coils to small thin plexy plates that can be then attached to the larger mounting plates. Its cheaper and easier if you have to make changes. Coil modules. ;]  Plastic/nylon screws/bolts from home depot or lowes to attach the modules.

Mags

Free Energy - Freie Energie - energia libre - OverUnity.com

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5722 on: February 23, 2012, 10:06:36 PM »

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5723 on: February 23, 2012, 10:35:08 PM »

The distance of each coil?
Is this in reference to the distance BETWEEN coils?

I think ZFF had mentioned the capability to adjust individual coils in relation to the rotor.
Not sure if this would be a great advantage.

If coils are consistently wound there should be no need to adjust one closer, or further away, from the rotor.
And the bias magnet position, or size, is just as good for adjustments of individual coils.

One of the biggest issues I see is the consistency of the magnets in the rotor.
I think that if their magnetic strength, or flux pattern, are not all within 5-10% of each other this may have a substantial effect on performance.

}:>


Hi Scorch,
    I agree with mags, also we need to have an adjustable coil, so we can easily adjust the distance of each coil.

Free Energy - Freie Energie - energia libre - OverUnity.com

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5723 on: February 23, 2012, 10:35:08 PM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5724 on: February 23, 2012, 11:30:25 PM »
Hi Marius,
 
 I assume the scope shows the induced voltage waveforms and when you connect the 24 leds and place the backing magnets behind the core, the waveform peaks seems to be cut only a little which means about  1.1 Volt from the positive and the negative peaks each (3-1.9=1.1 if I consider the DVM values, on the scope this seems less difference if we consider the full peak to peak value). 
 So what I mean with this is that the led diodes as a load do not behave as real loads like a resistor would,  below the leds forward voltage there is no load current and over the forward voltage there is load current.  Understand this?   
 Let's say one full waveform is 2 millisec long in time and the loading current can only flow for much less than 2ms, just during the positive and the negative voltage peaks whose time length is say only 2 x 200 microsecond=400us=0.4ms  this is 20% of the 2ms waveform one full period in this example and there is no any load for the rest of the waveform period of 80%.  This means Lenz if is present at all, it can only be present for 20% not for 100%.
 So you may want to repeat the test with a resistor load which is surely present as a load for 100% of the waveform time period and then see the rpm change if there is any Lenz drag at all in this present setup.
 (In this example I assume 12 led diodes load the positive half of the  induced voltage and 12 led diodes load the negative one, is this correct?)
 
 Thanks,  Gyula
 
 PS Please confirm if you connected the bifilar coils in series cancel direction?  (i.e.  one end of a coil is connected to also the end of the other coil and the output is taken from the two start wires?  or vice versa)
 
 
Hi all

I have seen in mr. R videos a type of bifilar coil that cancels eachother the output. But when adding a magnet behind the coil there is output. i have found a sweat spot that doesn't affect the rpm when the leds are lit. The coils in the video are using this principle but i'll make one for further experiments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocrpEpL-D9M&feature=youtu.be

Free Energy - Freie Energie - energia libre - OverUnity.com

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5724 on: February 23, 2012, 11:30:25 PM »
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Offline konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5725 on: February 24, 2012, 07:48:21 AM »
Hi Gyula and Mariu
So the LEDs might not be such a good load to test if Lenz has vanished or not, since they work like diodes so they are not offically a resistive load?
Also Mariu, do you have that larger coil you stick magnets behind, in bifilar-wind? And, it is series-cancelling, so you get practically nothing from it in voltage, but when you add the magnets then is sort of jams the bloch wall forward like Gyual mentions with it "marching",  and this upsets the balance of  the coil (sort of) so that then the magnet behind the core, make the coil make some decent voltage - all the while no extra draw...
One thing is, what is the amperage created when the LEDs light up? It could be such low amperage that that is reason there is no lenz effect seen by ammeter....mabye rpm meter will show drop of 10 or 20 rpms that you can't really "see" with ammeter or scope showing the shapes...
Also Gyula mentions somehting about a diode bridge, across each coil, (I assume he means the bifilar) and then also the coil is connected series-adding and canceling-seires too...this would be neat thing if it is that easy to  take power out of coils lenz-free.,...
so: bifilar series cancelling winds, magnet of proper strength and distance behind core, and power comes out from both halves of bifilar at once into load using two diode bridges...
 

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5725 on: February 24, 2012, 07:48:21 AM »

Offline mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5726 on: February 24, 2012, 01:48:20 PM »
Hi guys

Yes, it is a lenz coil too. I have built other 3 to make sure of that. But anyway it is interesting  how it works. The rotor is NSNS; haven't tested yet on NNNN.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5727 on: February 24, 2012, 06:32:24 PM »
Hi Gyula and Mariu
So the LEDs might not be such a good load to test if Lenz has vanished or not, since they work like diodes so they are not offically a resistive load? 

 Hi Doug,
 
 I agree, the strange thing is that LEDs behave as a load only when the AC peak voltage is higher across them then their forward voltage (3.1V for a single white LED) and when the AC voltage goes below that, then the LED behaves as open circuit just like an Si diode below 0.7V.  I attached a picture which includes a single cycle of an AC sine wave with 8V peak to peak amplitude and I show a LED pair connected in antiparallel.  The so called current 'caps' or 'hats' shown below the sine wave are meant to represent current and the horizontal width of these 'hats' indicate the time when the LEDs are able to conduct within a single AC cycle.  When the LEDs can conduct the current is limited by the R series resistor.
 IF you connect all the LEDs uniformly i.e. all the anodes are joined and all the cathodes are joined to form a 'single big'  LED and then you connect this 'big' LED to such an AC voltage as shown then the real loading effect from this big LED would further be restricted to only a single current 'hat' within one AC cycle instead of the antiparallel case with the two current 'hats'.
 (By the way those current 'caps or hats' waveforms I show in the picture could be seen by a scope across the resistor R.)
 
 One more thing: if you use a full wave diode bridge without a puffer cap, then the rectified waveform looks like as two (positive) half sinewaves within one cycle and if you now load the bridge output with LEDs (uniformly connected of course, not antiparallel) then these LEDs still do NOT represent a full load on the original AC waveform because the half sinewaves will have amplitudes which will be below the LEDs forward voltage threshold, just like in the non-rectified case.  This is why a puffer capacitor is needed at the bridge output to store energy when the AC half waveforms are near the zero line or are less than the LEDs forward voltage.  So with the puffer capacitor in place the (uniformly) connected LEDs now represent a full load to the original AC waveform, in every single moment within a full cycle, as if they were a resistor.
 I uploaded a second picture to show this diode bridge situation, substitute LEDs in place of the load resistor  (nothing special of course).
 
 
Marius,
 
 Thanks for showing your coil style, this is not what I imagined yesterday, :)   I show in a picture below what I meant but probably in that case the induced voltage in your setup shown would be much less than what you find with your shown coils arrangement.
 I assume you already tested a bifilar coil (as I show the bifilar coil with guiding two wires in parallel close to each other, the start of both wires are joined and left floating and the end of the wires are the output points) and maybe you found they give output but it is rather small, much less than what you have shown in the video yesterday?
 
Perhaps you may wish to test your LED array as a load with a diode bridge and a puffer capacitor  OR just use a single resistor instead of the LED array: the value of this resistor would be approximately  3V/(12*10mA)= 25 Ohm  try using any value between 22 to 47 Ohm and place the scope across it like you placed it across the LEDs in the video.

 Thanks,  Gyula

Offline mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5728 on: February 24, 2012, 08:07:53 PM »
Hi Gyula
 Thank you for the detailed explanation.
 A normal bifilar series canceling curent is giving me nothing on the output. This new coil I saw it first in one of Mr. R videos and he put a document on his site about this bifilar mirror image coil. This is just a picture from the patent; i cant upload it here.  I was going to look for it in the site but:
Connection Problems Sorry, SMF was unable to connect to the database.  This may be caused by the server being busy.  Please try again later. Service Temporarily Unavailable The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later.
 

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5728 on: February 24, 2012, 08:07:53 PM »

Offline konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5729 on: February 24, 2012, 09:06:27 PM »
Hi Mariu
What do you mean by "its a lenz coil too" - is this a typo, and you mean that it is a "no-lenz coil too"
or do you mean it does suffer from lenz?
That is interesting idea, to wind a coil in opposite directions on the core with it attached in middle seems like it should do some crazy things for sure - do you take out power through two FWBRS or diode bridges at once, one on one half, and other on other half?

 

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