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Author Topic: The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop  (Read 19711 times)

Cap-Z-ro

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The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop
« on: October 01, 2008, 09:41:30 PM »

A very interesting and practical concept.

More here...

http://www.blfdesigns.com/frictionheater/






tak22

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Re: The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2008, 09:18:29 PM »
This topic has some very interesting potentials and is being discussed in depth over at energetic forum, where Rick has been in contact with Lloyd Tanner.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2835-friction-steam-boiler.html

Here is one of Rick's summary posts:

Quote
The original design, as shown in the video is simplistic enough as to be duplicated after a careful review of the video, but Lloyd has made several refinements since then that make it even more productive. The use of a long, horizontal roller, and a wider trough, allows several chunks of wood to be set against the friction roller at a time, thus generating multiples of the heat and steam produced. What you see happening here is something that anyone owning a circular saw with a dull blade has already seen. The wood cuts slowly, and chars, and the saw blade gets very hot quite rapidly. As Jetijs points out, the rotational speed is an important factor, and Lloyd says 1800 to 2000 rpm seems to be an ideal rate. Very little force is needed for the friction required to heat the metal wheel or roller to a temperature high enough to convert water droplets to steam, and even less is required to maintain the temperature once reached, so a relatively low hp steam engine should do the trick for a home sized unit. The entire unit is airtight, with the covers and steam vessel mounted, so the heat and resultant steam pressure build up rapidly with no losses (except for the trough's exterior surface to air heat transfer, but this also provides heat to your home). The pressure is held within the steam vessel until Lloyd opens the valve on the front of the steam vessel, allowing steam to rush into the inlet of a steam engine, if one is utilized. Remember, the wood never actually burns - it only chars, and slowly but eventually wears down. I believe that a 3 hp steam engine would be sufficient for home heating and domestic water production. A 3 hp steam engine will put out 100,000 BTU per hour from its exhaust, about the same as a conventional oil burning home heating system boiler. Of course you could couple the exhaust to a radiator system with an electric circulator pump to distribute heat around the rooms of your house, and recycle the still warm water at the end of the radiator loop back to a tank that could be used in refilling the water hopper. Normally, a 3 hp steam engine, if using a wood fired boiler, requires about 20 pounds of hardwood per hour to produce continuous steam sufficient to run the engine, so you can see the tremendous advantage that Lloyd's setup has over conventional methods of producing steam. Imagine running almost continuously (excepting for occasional maintenance) for 5 years on just one cord of firewood. Just imagine that, and you will realize the potential for this device. With a 5 to 10 hp steam engine, you can not only provide heat and hot water for your home, but have enough reserve engine power to drive an electric generator head to provide 2.5 to 5 kw power for your household electricity needs. Those who don't require heat can convert more of the steam engine's power to generating electricity. A 3 hp steam engine will produce 1.5 kw from the shaft power, even while producing 100,000 BTU's at the exhaust, which is an adequate amount for running a refrigerator, TV, crock pot, and some lighting, while others are without electric power. So the optimal steam engine size is determined by your energy needs. It should be noted that reciprocating piston steam engines rotate much slower than steam turbines, generally in the 700 rpm range or thereabouts, so to obtain the ideal rotational speed of the friction wheel or roller, you would need a 1:3 gearing ratio. A 2,000 rpm direct drive would be at the lower end of a steam turbine's capability for rotational speed output. While turbines are expensive to buy, they are not all that complicated to build if you have access to a machine shop. Mart provided a good link for a 3 hp reciprocating engine, and a larger one too, if you decide to go that route. The link provided by Jetijs shows a really nice radial design engine. It would be great for experimentation, and probably sufficient to run a small friction heater that would at least produce domestic hot water or heat a small cabin if you are well insulated and not living in a climate having extended low temperature ranges. Edit - Here's what the builder says about this little engine: "The engine has a 1" bore, and 1" stroke. The hp is unknown, rpm is 50-500 rpm aprox. This is just a model and is not designed to do any real work, it is mechanical art for men, and is for your office desk or den as a conversation piece, it does go round and round when air pressure is applied."

While the electric motor, seen in Lloyd's video, worked fine to start up the steam processing, Lloyd says that he much prefers the new method using propane. No electric motor, motor mounting hardware, switches, controls, batteries, electrical connections, wiring, or additional drive mechanisms are needed. The propane works quickly for start-up, and is then turned off. The system is then self-sustaining as long as water drip is available and the friction producing wood is loaded.

Just some clarifications and additional food for thought from the man in Maine.

Nothing new from Lloyd at this time, but I will post anything that comes along as quickly as is possible.

Best regards to all,

Rickoff  :)

Images provided by Lloyd are here:

http://cid-a4a1d6e4bb17a7e3.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Public/Lloyd%20Tanner%7C4s%20Friction%20Heater?uc=1

tak

resonanceman

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Re: The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2008, 10:30:58 PM »
A very interesting and practical concept.

More here...

http://www.blfdesigns.com/frictionheater/







I think  that   the water  hammer  device or  spinning  disks or  cylinders in  oil  can  do the same thing ...........without  wasting  wood .

friction is  caused  by  making  atoms  bump into each other  at a faster rate .  There are lots of ways to  create it without  direct contact .

gary   

rickoff

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A note from Rickoff
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2008, 07:22:13 AM »
Hi folks, I'm glad to see that you have a thread going here about Lloyd's device.  I have been quite busy the past few weeks in the thread at EnergeticForum, and there is a lot of new information posted. My post #32 gives full details about the functional parts.  See that here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2835-friction-steam-boiler-2.html#post31322

If you read my post #60 of the same thread, I think that will make it clear that the Griggs pump is not the way to go, and that Lloyd's device is more effective.  I posted a new concept drawing on October 28, in post # 93, that shows how I would go about constructing a replication of Lloyd's device, and I think this will help people to better visualize everything that is going on. Thanks for your interest, and I hope that you will find the information both interesting and useful.

Best wishes to all,

Rickoff

nitinnun

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Re: The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2008, 12:49:25 PM »
i want to do this exact same thing. but with one steel bowl spinning inside another. another that has motor oil in it.


the friction is what causes the heat.
it is not necessary to destroy materials, to get friction.

mscoffman

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Re: The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2008, 04:06:39 PM »

Don't forget the wood is being slowly combusted during the friction event.
So in this method, one has heating from both the mechanical friction and the
chemical value of burning the wood. But CO^2 is released to the atmosphere.
It is better though then pure wood burning in a furnace. I think the key might
be to have it burn standard sizes of wood like 2"x4"'s  or those commercial
fireplace logs. One could load then into a bin and forget them.

Oil friction furnaces are different in the the oil is not consummed.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Paul-R

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Re: The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2008, 04:19:33 PM »
What is the electrical power into the motor?

What is the rate of heat supplied to the water?

Paul.

rickoff

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Replies
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2008, 09:20:23 PM »
i want to do this exact same thing. but with one steel bowl spinning inside another. another that has motor oil in it.
the friction is what causes the heat.
it is not necessary to destroy materials, to get friction.

Yes, that's a good point, and a viable option, although not as effective at producing heat as a solid-to-solid friction device like Lloyd's.  Jetijs has been experimenting with the idea of using the oil method to transfer heat directly from the rotor of Lloyd's device to the steam vessel.  He has a separate thread going for those ideas, and it can be seen here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2878-my-replication-fuelless-oil-heater.html#post31564  For construction plans, see the following site: http://1a26.com/pdf/Free%20Energy/Fuelless%20Heater.pdf  This does produce heat, and it would be a viable source for home heating if operated by a low amperage drive motor such as a Lindemann attraction motor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyuTOQkb91k, or a RotoVerter. http://www.panaceauniversity.org/RV.pdf

As to the non-destructive aspects, the fuelless heater method is a winner - no doubt about that.  But keep in mind that millions of people are already burning wood, or wood pellets, to produce heat, and that the trend increases with high heating oil prices.  Wood is a renewable resource, so it will always be used by people. Use of LLoyd's device to heat their homes would immensely reduce the amount of wood being used, and would also greatly decrease emissions, while also providing a method of generating household electrical power.  The cost savings would be very substantial, and I think that is what would motivate most people to implement Lloyd's device.  It just seems like a win-win situation for everyone (except big oil and the utilities, of course).

Best to you, 

Rick   :)


rickoff

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Re: The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2008, 10:16:00 PM »
Don't forget the wood is being slowly combusted during the friction event.
So in this method, one has heating from both the mechanical friction and the
chemical value of burning the wood. But CO^2 is released to the atmosphere.
It is better though then pure wood burning in a furnace. I think the key might
be to have it burn standard sizes of wood like 2"x4"'s  or those commercial
fireplace logs. One could load then into a bin and forget them.

Hi Mark,

The 4x4's used by Lloyd will last for a 3 day continuous run, and that is while using the 16 inch long chunks as shown in the video demo.  You certainly could use smaller dimensional wood, such as 2x4's, and that would be very practical for Lloyd's newer horizontal friction roller design, where you can load in multiple pieces of wood at one time.  Lloyd is also suggesting use of a vertical cartridge type of loading mechanism, similar to that of a rifle cartridge magazine.  Another possibility is to build a longer trough and load several lengths of wood end to end.  Relatively short pieces of wood, perhaps 16 to 24 inches, appear to work best to eliminate feed problems otherwise caused by warpage.  Keep in mind, too, that Lloyd's device is meant to use green, unseasoned, rough-cut hardwood with a full size cut, and not dried dimensional lumber.  As to environmental aspects, Lloyd's method is far more environmentally friendly than burning wood.  No chimney is required, and Lloyd says that only a small amount of ash is produced as the wood wears down.  It is an established fact that dead and decaying wood, when left in a forest, essentially produces the same emissions as burning of wood.  Also, tree growth is accellerated when a forest is thinned out to remove competitive trees vying for the same growth area, nutrients, and sunlight.  So continuous management, harvesting, and utilization of renewable wood resources is actually beneficial, when conducted properly.  Here in Maine, a great many people rely on wood heat, either totally or as a supplement, and 95% or more of all existing and newly constructed homes are wood framed.  Still, fully 90% of the land area in Maine remains as forested land fully capable of sustaining such usage.

Just some food for thought.  Best wishes to you Mark,

Rick   :)

   

rickoff

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Reply to Paul:
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2008, 11:21:16 PM »
What is the electrical power into the motor?
What is the rate of heat supplied to the water?
Paul.

Hi Paul,
The answer to these questions depends upon factors related to your actual build, and how you intend to use the device.  If you use an efficient motor, such as the Lindemann attraction motor or the RotoVerter (see my earlier post for information about these) then your power in will be about 1/4 or less than if you operate Lloyd's device using a conventional motor.  Also keep in mind that the motor is only used as a start-up device if you plan on using a steam engine.

Lloyd has tested his device to poduce a constant flow of steam at up to 565 F degrees, and that would equate to a pressure just over 200 psi.  There is no need to operate nearly as high as that, though, to operate a steam engine.  Many will start turning at less than 20 psi.  Also keep in mind that a small increase in temperature produces a relatively large gain in pressure on the steam saturation curve.
(http://ckta4q.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p02vKnWbfDK1PoE5lK3NqswP3VnuF4N5jEXKwEzk2KHSC9Xnrnbi0qfhg8VEzsq-4ngWl1fNSUWZ7KyXWkPGCaQ/Steam%20temp%20and%20pressure%20chart.gif)
You don't need to double the temperature to double the pressure. And if you only want to produce domestic hot water, and/or baseboard heating hot water, you only need heat the water to between 140 and 160 F degrees at atmospheric pressure (14 psi).  Lloyd's device can do this so easily that it will not have to run continuously, and a thermostatic switch would only start the motor when the temperature of the water falls to the lower end of the desired range.  Incidentally, I recently picked up a Honeywell R8182H boiler control unit for just 99 cents on Ebay, and this would be perfect for controlling water heating applications with Lloyd's device.  The retail price of a new R8182H unit is over $400, so I really found a great deal.  Turns out that I was the only bidder!   ;D

Rick   :)

Paul-R

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Re: Reply to Paul:
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2008, 04:32:00 PM »
Hi Paul,
The answer to these questions depends upon factors related to your actual build, and how you intend to use the device.
In the case of the photograhed implementation, what was the electrical input in watts to the motor, and what
was the rate of increase in temperature of the water per gallon?

These are crucial questions.

fuzzytomcat

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Re: Reply to Paul:
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2008, 09:26:51 PM »
In the case of the photograhed implementation, what was the electrical input in watts to the motor, and what
was the rate of increase in temperature of the water per gallon?

These are crucial questions.

Hi Paul-R

I started a thread at "Energetic Forum" http://www.energeticforum.com/31085-post1.html and Rickoff has been kind enough to contact
"Lloyd Tanner" and spend time to advance this topic, he has a very unique quality to communicate with others better than most.

I made a sketch and posted it http://www.energeticforum.com/31786-post54.html when Rickoff indicated that "Lloyd Tanner" had really
only the video as a reference there were "No Drawings" available for us to use. This is a "On Demand" system with no storage of hot or
boiling water.

This is a extremely worthy project that all should be participating in and I would suggest that any "Overunity" members that are
interested to advance this quickly and get everyone up to speed is to check it out and get this thread moving here.

Attached is my sketch of the original concept of Lloyd Tanners "Friction Boiler" (subject to interpretation)





Regards,
Fuzzy
 :)



« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 12:57:33 AM by fuzzytomcat »

fuzzytomcat

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Re: The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2008, 09:28:09 PM »
Hi all,

I can't believe that only eight members are interested in this topic with only 568 views and 11 replies in over one month ....... and "THOUSANDS" of views and replies on political, paranormal and alien space ship topics here at this forum ???

WHERE DID THE SCIENCE GO ??  :o  :(  :o  :(


Fuzzy

rickoff

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Re: The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2008, 03:08:58 AM »
Hi all,

I can't believe that only eight members are interested in this topic with only 568 views and 11 replies in over one month ....... and "THOUSANDS" of views and replies on political, paranormal and alien space ship topics here at this forum ???

WHERE DID THE SCIENCE GO ??  :o  :(  :o  :(


Fuzzy

Well, Fuzzy, that's too bad.  But at least we have given enough information so that those who are interested enough will hop over to the EnergeticForum.com thread to learn more.  We have had over 5,000 views there in the first month since the topic was posted, and that was thanks to you, Glen.

Rick   :)

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2008, 04:16:22 AM »

@Rick,

I registered on your site a few days ago, and am acknowledged as a member there...but am still restricted to reading text only.

Has this happened to anyone else, or is it just me ?

Thanks.

Regards...