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Author Topic: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.  (Read 123743 times)

Offline Loner

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #285 on: March 17, 2010, 05:02:36 AM »
PeterPierre, That is the concept, however, it is not necessary to switch the HV.  You CAN feed DC pulses through a transformer and you can get a nice clean square wave out, if you really want to work at it.  Look at some of the Tesla stuff around here for further ideas on that.  There was an large talk about the exact method, but I have forgotten where.  In such a configuration, the chokes can act as a voltage amplifier or maybe you could call it an "Intensifier".  (Very small joke there.)

You have finally brought up what I have asked many times, as to why the "Conditioning" of the water cap was so important.  The only people that got fairly good results described the "White" coating that would develop on the plates/tubes and lo and behold, measuring the resistance of this coating showed it to be an insulator.  Guess it is important, eh?

For reference, clear paint didn't hold up well for me and RE charges have their own troubles, but I think you are on to the first and most basic problem with most setups.  I have yet to get a good "Conditioning" coating, with one exception.  My pet peve;  If you can measure the signal at the water cap with an o'scope, you are not going to get anywhere.  Gotta set that up before the HV output, unless you happen to have HV, Hign Impeadance probes, etc.  No-One wants to mention that part, including, normally, me.  (No need for me to explain why, is there?)   Ignoring the "Ground" in the drawings can also help, as can using the "VIC" as a magnetic amp as well as a step-up.  (Just part of the DC Pass-through specs...)

(Note:  VERY High Voltages can develop with this and arcing normal HV will ignite the HHO.  Even if the Arc is under the water, if production is really ripping there is enough exposed to pop.  I've seen that one...  Am I correct in my memory that it was mentioned by Stan that 20,000V was possible on the cap?  If so, forget grounding and build accordingly....  I would assume a good HV diode would be required as well. Like TV HV...)

Great thoughts.....   Maybe someday, but I'm still too nervous from a blown intake manifold to go back into that area, yet....

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #285 on: March 17, 2010, 05:02:36 AM »
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Offline peterpierre

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #286 on: March 17, 2010, 12:01:29 PM »
Blown intake manifold, eh? Wow, how did u do that? LOL ... besides it's not anything to be spooked over, it's not like the engine or the car exploded, crap like that happens all the time to people who buy those ready to buy HHO Cells, which are nothing else but regular 12V electrolysis. I think I found a proper way of coating 'electrodes' it's a tad bit pricey to say the least but I built a mini cell with plates, so the plates are sandblasted and coated with PVC, assembled and then tested with a induction tester (not cheap at all) but basically it increases the voltage until it arches (on purpose) - then you know how high you can go with the cell voltage before all hell breaks loose. Secondly ... my personal opinion ... I think anything from 600 to 800V DC is perfectly sufficient to provoke water polarization, especially with such sml plate / pipe distances, as I had mentioned before - what do you want 20 kV for? planning on tasering somebody? :)

P.S. HV Diode - no problem, but it's not only that, you also need one that can take the hit once the capacitor discharges ... example I step charge it with 600V ... upon discharge those 600V turn into 600A ... u need a really fat heavy duty current diode in order to hold that blast, else you will be collecting ur 1N4007 from all over ur place lol (probably partially be picking it out of ur teeth lol)

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #286 on: March 17, 2010, 12:01:29 PM »
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Offline Loner

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #287 on: March 18, 2010, 12:55:12 PM »
PeterPierre, I wasn't really "Looking" to get 20KV, I just remember Stan Meyer mentioning that number.  I think that's very high, myself.  I was just trying to infer that such voltages were possible, in a properly setup system.  Many have stated that this is NOT possible with the VIC circuit, and I tend to disagree with that.  I certainly agree that lower is fine.  The lower it can be and still provide the effect, the better I feel.  I haven't the slightest idea what the values I got were, as I wasn't really looking at it that way....

I wouldn't think the pulse would be that high of a current, as the chokes will limit the actual flow, which is where the voltage comes from, so most HV diodes should be OK, as they usually have fairly high pulse ratings.  This Still sounds OK to me.  Even a 1n914 can handle 100A Pulses, if they are short enough.  (Of course, a little too big, and you might not even find the pieces....)   ;D

Offline peterpierre

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #288 on: March 18, 2010, 01:04:37 PM »
LOL True, Well look, the thing with the VIOC does work ... the only reason why the other say it does not work is because they go by Meyers drawings, as I mentioned in my last post, Meyer switched places of the VIC and PWM, and trust me on this one when I tell you, the only way you get a proper HV DC pulse is if you first step up your voltage and afterwards invoke the pulses, it cannot work any other way - one good reason that supports my statement, the ferrite core of the toroidal transformer I am using to get up to 600 V DC, supports only and AC current with a 50Hz / 60 Hz Frequency so it brings 24V AC up to 400V AC after which 400V AC are rectified to ca. 570V DC ... the whole stepup process needs a proper carrier frequency to do it's job. Now ... what hapens if you pulse a toroid core which is provisioned to withstand only 50/60Hz with let's say ... 30,000 Hz? ... well ... you will break the damn transformer, you'd loose. So think about what I said it might just have merit ... maybe also because I tried it both ways and the one described herein by me - the latter does indeed work :)

Offline Loner

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #289 on: March 18, 2010, 01:35:00 PM »
Sounds good.  If it works, then it works.

Now, I must read the entire thread to get fully sync'd in with the exact concept so I don't sound too foolish.  (I tend to get far too long-winded on a lot of things, and I'm fighting with 2 other projects right now.  Just trying to "Prove" the reality of certain things has turned out to be a lot harder than I thought.)  If the method you have laid out actually gives the results you want, then what can I say other than "Good Job", grab the data and see how well I can do with it.

Thanks, and I'll refrain from making comments till I can offer some "Experienced" data.  No need for me to add "Confusion" factors as there are plenty available to do that already.  (60Hz limited Torrid?   Hmmmm.)

Thanks again.

Offline peterpierre

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #290 on: March 18, 2010, 01:39:43 PM »
Look, I will give you the make and A of the stepup toroid in the pic ... its being sold as a 400V to 2x12V 75VA Toroidal Power Transformer: Make: Nuvotem Model: SFB0075-400-12 ... supported AC Frequency 50 or 60Hz .... cost: around $80 (55 Euro) P.S. Manufacturer is 'TALEMA'

So, you feed 24V AC in to the 2 outer pins of the 12V end  (each of the two pins is marked with 12V) the center pin is marked 0 and should not be connected to anything) ... on the 400V end u get your 400V AC ... now you must rectify those into DC and you will get roughly 570V DC after rectifier.

Authors Note: Do not mistake AC Frequency with Square Pulse Frequency ... Pulsed DC not equal AC
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 02:03:26 PM by peterpierre »

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #290 on: March 18, 2010, 01:39:43 PM »
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Offline peterpierre

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #291 on: March 19, 2010, 03:11:15 PM »
Additional Note: Why the setup Stan Meyer has in his patent drawings can not work in the sequence displayed. In order to step up Voltage, it has to be AC, you cannot directly step up DC Voltage without prior converting it to AC. The cell is driven by a square pulsed DC (according to patent but nowhere confirmed) in which polarity does not change and AC is a Sinusoid curve in which polarity does change at the rate of the AC frequency. To combine those two very different kind of forms of electricity and run them successfully over a single toroidal transformer with any amount of success might prove incredibly difficult - I would say - impossible, unless you guys have found the holy grail which would allow you to bypass quite a few laws of electrophysics. So, does anyone here like to disagree with me? Now's the time :)

P.S. Although there is also the marginal possibility that the Stan Meyer prototype was all along a AC type water cell capacitor and that the circuit was never intended to be run with DC ... but either way ... we can try both ways and see what happens :)

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #291 on: March 19, 2010, 03:11:15 PM »

Offline Loner

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #292 on: March 19, 2010, 09:24:22 PM »
Just for reference, the idea that you cannot step up DC better not be mentioned to anyone who ever worked on car ignition circuits.

Just a comment, but I see DC and AC mixed together all the time.  It's been very well proven that you can send two separate "Voltages" down one wire and they need not interact with each other.  One of the "Issues" in Steven Mark's TPU device was this very thing, and simple examples were given.

A very common example is an AC waveform "Riding" on top of a DC signal.  Very commonly used, but along the same concept.  Use a Cap to pull the two signals back apart.  (Yeah, I know, That's old stuff.)

I'll shut up now.

Offline peterpierre

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #293 on: March 19, 2010, 11:17:04 PM »
Sure you can do that, however, for the particular setup displayed in stans patent drawings, completely not suitable - it does not give you the desired results.

Ah and:

A very common example is an AC waveform "Riding" on top of a DC signal.  Very commonly used, but along the same concept.  Use a Cap to pull the two signals back apart.  (Yeah, I know, That's old stuff.)

---

That would be a false statement, that is a 6 pulse rectification of AC to DC with residual AC in the DC after rectifier ... by using a cap you merely get rid of the residual AC in your DC which would be very desireable (again, see my last pics ... notice the big capacitor in there right behind the rectifier?)

Offline peterpierre

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #294 on: March 20, 2010, 03:15:00 PM »
Another cute definition of the term dielectric .. which in our case is supposed to be water, once again hinting on the fact that in order to comply, the electrodes MUST be isolated, it also hints that in this particular occasion, we indeed have to be working with a DC circuit in order to make proper use of the dielectric properties of water ... guys, do not condition your electrodes - isolate them, as of in 'entirely' ... here the definition as reference:

A dielectric is an electrical insulator that may be polarized by the action of an applied electric field. When a dielectric is placed in an electric field, electric charges do not flow through the material, as in a conductor, but only slightly shift from their average equilibrium positions causing dielectric polarization: positive charges are displaced along the field and negative charges shift in the opposite direction. This creates an internal electric field which partly compensates the external field inside the dielectric. If a dielectric is composed of weakly bonded molecules, those molecules not only become polarized, but also reorient so that their symmetry axis aligns to the field.

While the term "insulator" refers to a low degree of electrical conduction, the term "dielectric" is typically used to describe materials with a high polarizability. The latter is expressed by a number called the dielectric constant. A common, yet notable, example is that a dielectric is the electrically insulating material between the metallic plates of a capacitor. The polarization of the dielectric by the applied electric field increases the capacitor's capacitance.

The study of dielectric properties is concerned with the storage and dissipation of electric and magnetic energy in materials. It is important to explain various phenomena in electronics, optics, and solid-state physics.

The term "dielectric" was coined by William Whewell (from "dia-electric") in response to a request from Michael Faraday.

For any additional questions please reference the aricle in Wikipedia.

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #294 on: March 20, 2010, 03:15:00 PM »
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Offline peterpierre

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #295 on: March 24, 2010, 05:33:41 PM »
Wow, who would have thought ... not a single post, no reply, no questions, no critics - nothing ... well, I guess not then ...

Offline haithar

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #296 on: March 24, 2010, 06:08:44 PM »
your post only states fact, nothing to comment on?!
probably distilled water is enough to do the isolation though?

Offline peterpierre

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #297 on: March 24, 2010, 06:16:33 PM »
if you have 2 electrodes (example) with a distance of 1 - 3 mm and apply a High Voltage DC Pulse you will notice very quickly that given circumstances, although distilled - it is quite conductive, it will arch (probably fry your electronics and/or transformer(s)) and a current will flow, at which point it becomes inductive and no longer capacitive ... dry ice would be good as a dielectric, but the moment it starts to melt and has water on the surface it will also start conducting ... so the only way is to isolate :)

Note: For safety reasons (mainly to your electronics and transformers) after proper isolation, the electrodes should undergo a induction test.

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #297 on: March 24, 2010, 06:16:33 PM »
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Offline haithar

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #298 on: March 24, 2010, 09:16:14 PM »
I once built the Water Fracture apparatus from Chris Eccles, two plexiglass sheets were the walls of a container, cm in width, water in it.
Aluminum sheets were the electrodes, the high voltage pulses came from a timed flyback transformer.
Sometimes it would ark through the whole centimeter (so the voltage must have been > 10kV), but the water didn't change a bit. Since then i'm skeptic of the high voltage water fracturing thing.

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #298 on: March 24, 2010, 09:16:14 PM »

Offline peterpierre

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Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
« Reply #299 on: March 24, 2010, 09:21:35 PM »
Well, if u had > 10 kV then the current was probably minimal and also the question comes up, were you pulsing it and how were you pulsing it? ... P.S. the moment it arches it looses it's ability to affect the water, you have to lower the voltage and reduce the distance of the electrodes.

 

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