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News announcements and other topics => News => Topic started by: peterpierre on October 11, 2008, 11:01:21 PM

Title: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on October 11, 2008, 11:01:21 PM
Built in Germany - operational going into ultra sonic trials next week. My name is Pete and yes - I am the guy in the pic :) Cell tested without electronics - in less than one hour pressure of 2.5 BAR (almost 36 PSI achieved and it holds it as well - over pressure protection valve operates as anticipated) :)

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: vonwolf on October 11, 2008, 11:25:59 PM
Good luck Pete;
   Are you going to run the motor on hydrogen converted by the cell with no external power?
Keep us informed  Pete
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on October 11, 2008, 11:38:41 PM
Actually the cell will be powered as prescribed by 12 V tops 6A - however we are adding an accoustics system to the cell as well - not sure what power range will be necessary but I am certain we can learn from the behaviour of dolphins in regards to accelerated H2O decomposition. Will keep you guys posted of course - exciting times, time to free ourselves from what is happening or things will have a really bad ending ... we don't even have a choice anymore - really ...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: MeltDown on December 03, 2008, 10:12:14 AM
The ultrasonic is a good idea and that is plainly visible in Meyers photos.

On the original cell, freeze the video when you wee the top of the cell and look at the center tube. You see a clip holding something inside that cell. That is most likely the transducer.

In the final resonant cavity, he used a 40 prong resonator made of titanium.

The toroid people can't seem to get replicated is because they don't understand that it is a flyback inductor.

I am going to build it and demonstrate what happens when the core is configured to properly flyback. The positive goes high, and the negative goes lower and overall the voltage potential is many times higher than a regular transformer.

Also the voltage goes two different directions instead of their just being positive and ground. That is what Meyer meant when he talked about pure voltage potential and in the drawings you see B+ and B-

That means a three rail power supply or what I just described.

The voltage just places stress on the water and it does. Put two wires from a neon sign transformer and watch the water move.

The ultrasonic then fractures it. At that point you have two types of cavitation, ultrasonic and voltage but almost no current.

Nice cell by the way. Don't build pressure in your cell like that. If that were to explode with that much pressure in it, you could kill yourself and you WOULD damage your home.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 03, 2008, 12:47:55 PM
Thanks for the help and ecouragement :) I am well aware of what will happen should there be indeed an explosion at 2.5 bar ... there won't be much left of the cell ... or me and perhaps there might be one wall missing but that would no longer be any of my concern LOL ... just kidding, no I am careful. So - you are right MeltDown, because the way you explained it is how I interpreted Stan Meyers circuit as well ... it is a stepup transformer and the circuits are electrically separated ... the stepped up voltage picks up in the secondary circuit throught the pattern generated by the pwm circuit and bounces off the diode and goes back where it gets hit by the next pulse train which comes in through the inductor with a slight delay by the gating space mark so it bounces back and forth until it gets in resonance with the water and at that point it is virtually just voltage and no current and it is also self sensing in the way Stan Meyer describes it and it only gets faster and faster. I will attach some pictures of the sonic transducer we built for the cell .., it is one of our "brainfarts" I am certain it looks strange - unusual but it definitely has great potential if it happens to operate as anticipated ... if not I guess it will need some more improvements to it ... but those are only preliminary pictures. The more we are progressing with the cell and with the technology involved in it - the more futuristic and "weaponlike" it begins to look but don't take my word for it see for yourselves :) I thing we're right on the jackpot here :) As I had said before - money was the last thing on my mind as I started dealing with this type of science - but free energy was always more valuable to me than anything else ... yes the equipment purchased and used in this prototype has cost me dearly (my poor bank account and Credit cards) but it seems to be definitely worth and rich I am not ... I hope I will be better off some day (else my girl might ditch me) but thats only a hope :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: MeltDown on December 04, 2008, 09:17:45 AM
Interesting resonator. Are those piezo disks in between or magnets?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: MeltDown on December 04, 2008, 09:19:33 AM
Also that pitting you are seeing on the ends of the tubes from ion collisions can be reduced by wiring the tubes (inner/outer) from opposite ends.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 04, 2008, 08:26:09 PM
Those actually are kick-ass heavy duty piezo discs. Max. powered at 200V AC ... the resonance cavities these things can produce probably would rip even captainpeacan off his chair LOL  :o
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: MeltDown on December 05, 2008, 06:05:19 AM
Those actually are kick-ass heavy duty piezo discs. Max. powered at 200V AC ... the resonance cavities these things can produce probably would rip even captainpeacan off his chair LOL  :o

So it will be interesting if you time the piezo pulses at the same time or run them with a flip flop. This is a test I have been meaning to do but find the cell voltage causes my piezo to not run. I was just using a pond fogger for the piezo.

If you need a simple circuit to drive it just use a 555 to a decade counter. Then you have flip flop or whatever you need depending on where the reset os on the decade counter. A high power 555 and NTE4017B are a good match.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 05, 2008, 10:54:20 AM
So it will be interesting if you time the piezo pulses at the same time or run them with a flip flop. This is a test I have been meaning to do but find the cell voltage causes my piezo to not run. I was just using a pond fogger for the piezo.

If you need a simple circuit to drive it just use a 555 to a decade counter. Then you have flip flop or whatever you need depending on where the reset os on the decade counter. A high power 555 and NTE4017B are a good match.

Hm, well those pics are the piezos only provisorically in the resonator ... the top plate is one pole but the bottom pole is for each piezo separately addressable so I can drive each of the 6 with a separate frequency ... so the pics are a while old.  for driving them I have a power amp .... 12VDC to 200VAC with a IRF640 n-Channel MOSFet wich is addressed via BNC by a Function Generator variable from 0.1 Hz - 5 MHz .... sooo I think I have addressed most possible issues and since the cell circuit and the sonic circuit are totally separate of each other, I am convinced that I should not encounter any errors.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on December 05, 2008, 01:51:35 PM
P.S. addition ... I am convinced the resonant frequency (variable) will be in the lower Hz values (below 10k) so we would no longer be talking about ultrasonic here because that is well within the human audible range so we are actually talking about a sonic disruptor here :) and I should perhaps correct the title of this post because the direction in which this project has deviated in has absolutely NOTHING anymore to do with Dave Lawton he might be a really nice and intelligent guy but he was way off with the interpretation on Stanley Meyer's circuit - not even close. Not to mention that the Dave Lawton PWM circuit board shows a major weakness, I do not know if anyone here actually ever built one but if anyone did or is planning on building one (not necessarily a waste of time) the two resistors 100 Ohm (gating and frequency sections respectively) rated at 0.25W are insufficient and if you start tuning the circuit and achieve a resonance with your power supply those two resistors will start smoking and then sparking and they will plainly burn out - I know because it happened to me - once I had replaced them with 1 Watt 100 Ohm, the circuit was stable - no more smoking and sparking resistors ... but still the circuit as it is in  itself is not sufficient to produce the desired results. Thanks for reading my notes :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: MeltDown on December 06, 2008, 08:22:26 AM
Meyer used inbound and outbound longitudinal waves and magnetic wire in the version you built. Also appears to have used ultrasonic or vibration from piezo.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 06, 2008, 05:19:33 PM
Meyer used inbound and outbound longitudinal waves and magnetic wire in the version you built. Also appears to have used ultrasonic or vibration from piezo.

It is easy to speculate on what he may have used but as we all know speculation does not really solve a problem alone. My bet still is with the sonic-mechanical transducers and the secondary high DC voltage circuit to agitate the water molecules with an electrical field rather than with high currents.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: MeltDown on December 07, 2008, 12:41:08 AM
So you don't want me to "speculate" but your "bet" is... Hum..  :)

Meyer always talked about the four forces of the atom. Meyer always talked about using steel (composite) wire. This tells us that he was sending magnetic energy to the cell or that he was using that magnetic energy to do something OR he was trying to prevent amp flow in case of a flash over. The last one would be my bet.

If you look at Meyer's notes, on memo 429 page 10-12 he calls the wire "stainless steel 430FR/F inductive resistive COMPOSITE wire". Maybe these guys could help you out.
http://www.torpedowire.com/SuperCu.htm

If you look at memo 429 page 10-9 you see Meyer measures the water gap at 78.54 ohms. So your coil /cap would have to ohm out at 78.54 ohms to impedance match the water to prevent reflection? The wire becomes part of the core?  Since matter is held together by a scalar wave - an inbound longitudinal wave overlapping and slightly offset outbound wave I am betting he was doing that to de-spin the matter? On all his core you see the word magnetic coupling so that tells us the core is gapped?

My bet would be something along those lines, good luck with your bet.

People don't get the step charge because they do not include the caps?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: Grumpy on December 09, 2008, 05:15:00 AM
oops
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: MeltDown on December 09, 2008, 07:04:13 AM
Yeah.. dat's da ticket. Point a cloud buster at it and be sure to wear a tinfoil hat for safety reasons.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on December 09, 2008, 08:59:47 AM
Well, I am glad you guys are in good spirit and also seem to have a good sense of humor but I am not really sure if we are still on topic here ... I can tell 'MeltDown'  has a sarcastic day today and err ... 'Grumpy' .... I understand the first part of his post but then the rest - not really quite sure what he is talking about and why ... nothing here has really in any which way with joe cell or spark gaps to do ... but I am glad if you guys are entertained by my confusion :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Grumpy on December 09, 2008, 03:07:02 PM
...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on December 09, 2008, 05:15:01 PM
Oh!, but they do have much in common.

MeltDown has probably never heard of exploding water or exploding dielectrics or energy fields discharging violently when their polarizing field is suddenly cut off - or maybe he has.  Cavitation was brought up a while back as the answer to all of these strange occurences resulting is excess energy, so I ask what causes the cavitation in the first place and what is actually cavitating?

Isn't water a highly polar dielectric - you bet it is.  Don't recall if Meyer's used electrolyte, but don't think he did.  Dale Pond claimed to have told Meyer's about Keely's experiments dissociating water and then Meyer's went on to do just this.  Who knows though, maybe Dale was full of it.

Well, we're all bound to find out now aren't we (although MeltDown seems to disagree - at least in part - with my approach) ... lets see how things look in about 2 months or 3 ... shall we? :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: MeltDown on December 10, 2008, 02:12:54 AM
Well, we're all bound to find out now aren't we (although MeltDown seems to disagree - at least in part - with my approach) ... lets see how things look in about 2 months or 3 ... shall we? :)

Yes we shall my boy standing there all proud with his shiny new cell. I have been at this game for a long time. Here are a few things that I stopped believing in half a century ago:

1. Santa Claus.
2, The Tooth fairy.
3. Orgone energy.

That is what happens through life experience, you replace beliefs with knowledge. Well, most people anyway.

I'll check back in 2 -3 months. It sure does take you a long time to test your cell.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on December 10, 2008, 09:42:02 AM
Yes we shall my boy standing there all proud with his shiny new cell. I have been at this game for a long time. Here are a few things that I stopped believing in half a century ago:

1. Santa Claus.
2, The Tooth fairy.
3. Orgone energy.

That is what happens through life experience, you replace beliefs with knowledge. Well, most people anyway.

I'll check back in 2 -3 months. It sure does take you a long time to test your cell.

Sounds like somebody is bitter about something ....
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Grumpy on December 10, 2008, 03:03:26 PM
In any event, until we see a working replication of Meyer's device - theories are like orifices - everyone has one.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on December 10, 2008, 03:21:27 PM
LOL!

Orgone is no different than "scalar fields" or "potentials" or "radiant electricity" or "dielectric flux" or "displacement current" - just another term for somthing that is not understood.

"Spooks" always disregard these things as well.

People disregarded Walter Russell too, until he produced flourine.

In any event, until we see a working replication of Meyer's device - theories are like orifices - everyone has one.

I am sorry ... I am afraid you miscalculated ... each of us has more than one ... err ... orifice ... LOL
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: Grumpy on December 10, 2008, 03:36:25 PM
I am sorry ... I am afraid you miscalculated ... each of us has more than one ... err ... orifice ... LOL


You are correct.  I should have specified "which" orifice.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 10, 2008, 04:02:26 PM
Hm, I was never of the opinion that you were "full of crap" nor can anyone make me believe that you or anybody else is ... you see I am the kind of guy that is used to make up his own mind. If I were to go by what people are saying or hinting on I would wind up in Australia with my head shoved up my ass ... hm ... or was it in the sand? LOL - Either way I know of this document and I have never ignored it, actually that is part of my implementation anyways, I am really good at actually listening to people when they talk so as I watched the two "sessions" that were caught on video of Stan Meyer making a presentation I was not only watching them - I actually did absorb every single bit of info I could get out of it and then after that I put the bits and pieces back together and it all actually makes perfectly sense ... he is very right by applying the K.I.S.S. rule - Keep it simple stupid :) and simple it is if you open your mind and ears. He was a very smart man, especially with the way he split up the patent in like 40 small patents and selectively dropping one or the other detail out of some of them and I do not blame him but unfortunately it did not keep him alive either so I guess I will try the opposite and apply a "brute force" approach at full speed, the worst that might happen to me would be the same that happened to the late Stanley Meyer but that is all to be seen now isn't it? So perhaps maybe I seem a bit off the wall too to some of you but how far off the wall I really am we are all gonna see as I had mentioned before - but I will also not let anybody tell me or decide for me what will or what will not work - the main reason why inventions these days either never happen and/or go to hell is because there are always others messing with the thought process of the inventor thereby messing up his train of thought/creative flux. But I do thank everyone for encouragement and constructive criticism - in general productive suggestions, I do NOT need people telling me that something will not work or how I should be doing my research and testing - and I will selectively listen or discard what i get to hear / read. Because I really want this finished off so I can move to something else that has also always interested me :) Thanks guys :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: Grumpy on December 10, 2008, 04:08:30 PM
Good luck.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 10, 2008, 04:15:21 PM
Good luck.

Thank You :) Love your signature, may I steal it? :) LOL
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: chessnyt on December 14, 2008, 06:05:32 AM
Hello Everyone,

I have been silently watching the progress of what some term as a highly efficient form of electrolysis, but Stan Meyer called it “The Fracturing of Water”.  I simply call it “The Super-magnetizing of Water”.  No matter what we call it, it is FAR more efficient than conventional electrolysis in comparison and should not cause a rise in water temperature if you are replicating Stan’s method.

I realize that Stan Meyer rejected an offer of over one billion dollars cash to simply shelve his technology.  They were not even interested in having him further prove that his process actually worked at that point.  One billion dollar sure is pretty damn sure by any standards.  It makes perfect sense to me why the interested party (the oil industry) was willing to pay such a high price to stop Stan’s work when you consider what is really at stake here.
 
What would the oil companies do with billions of dollars worth of refineries if the whole world switched to ordinary tap water (as Meyer did NOT use any salt, baking soda  or chemical additives of any kind to increase electrical conductivity) for fuel?  What would they do with billions of dollars worth of drilling equipment and super-tanker ships?  What would the Arabs sell to the world that you could not get out of your own faucet?  Where would their economy go?  They were not looking at coexisting with Stan’s technology.  They were looking at certain extinction.

Stan did not fit the profile of a typical scam artist as he would have jumped on the one billion dollar offer in a heartbeat if that’s what he was.  In exchange for the money, all they were asking for him to do is to NEVER release or sell his technology.  I believe he had the real McCoy.

The reason I bring all this up is to simply warn the researchers involved to consider making copies of accurate and precise details that ANYBODY with moderate intelligence could understand and easily replicate your findings should something happen to you (car accident, fall off a high roof, or just simply come down with a sudden case of death) so the technology will not go secretly to the grave with you as in the unfortunate case of Stan Meyer.

And lastly, if you are successful in duplicating Stan’s results, PLEASE do NOT sell out to the oil industry!  Even from a billion dollar standpoint, you stand to make MUCH more of a profit selling your fuel cell commercially to the world and you will be sure to go down in ALL of the history books as the greatest heroes of all time!  The mass pollution problem would be solved as well.

Think about (you don’t have to agree) it anyways.

Sincerely,

Joe

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 14, 2008, 09:23:51 PM
Well, I do know where you are coming from, and I would love to follow that approach angle, however I do have a family to worry about so I rather take the money and stay alive than refuse the offer and suddenly wind up dead. Hope you can understand that too.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: Grumpy on December 15, 2008, 05:09:21 PM
I think Meyer's toroid is just a regular transformer according to this from his patent:

Quote
In the Example of a fuel cell circuit of FIG. 1, a water capacitor is included. The step-up coil is formed on a conventional toroidal core formed of a compressed ferromagnetic powered material that will not itself become permanently magnetized, such as the trademarked "Ferramic 06# "Permag" powder as described in Siemens Ferrites Catalog, CG-2000-002-121, (Cleveland,  Ohio) No. F626-1205". The core is 1.50 inch in diameter and 0.25 inch in thickness. A primary coil of 200 turns of 24 gauge copper wire is provided and coil of 600 turns of 36 gauge wire comprises the secondary winding.

In the circuit of FIG 1, the diode is a 1N1198 diode which acts as a blocking diode and an electric switch that allows voltage flow in one direction only. Thus, the capacitor is never subjected to a pulse of reverse polarity.

The primary coil of the toroid is subject to a 50% duty cycle pulse. The toroidal pulsing coil provides a voltage step-up from the pulse generator in excess of five times, although the relative amount of step-up is determined by preselected criteria for a particular application. As the stepped-up pulse enters first inductor (formed from 100 turns of 24 gauge wire 1 inch in diameter), an electromagnetic field is formed around the inductor, voltage is switched off when the pulse ends, and the field collapses and produces another pulse of the same polarity i.e., another positive pulse is formed where the 50% duty cycle was terminated. Thus, a double pulse frequency is produced; however, in pulse train of unipolar pulses, there is a brief time when pulses are not present.


so, what all the hype over the toroid?

Still looking for a reference tot he piezo stuffs in his devices - anyone got one handy?

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 15, 2008, 05:42:15 PM
I think Meyer's toroid is just a regular transformer according to this from his patent:
 

so, what all the hype over the toroid?

Still looking for a reference tot he piezo stuffs in his devices - anyone got one handy?



I couldn't agree more with you Grumpy - thats exactly what it actually is :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: Grumpy on December 15, 2008, 09:25:47 PM
I couldn't agree more with you Grumpy - thats exactly what it actually is :)

I am suspecting that the piezo was BS.  Where did you get this detail from?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 15, 2008, 09:30:55 PM
I am suspecting that the piezo was BS.  Where did you get this detail from?

Nope, no BS ... it's mechanical - how did you come to think that it would be BS?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: Grumpy on December 15, 2008, 10:00:39 PM
Nope, no BS ... it's mechanical - how did you come to think that it would be BS?

I can't find an acceptable reference to support it's use (piezo that is).

I also read several explanations of how Meyer's devices work and none of them fit.  For example, Meyer used an insulated housing for his water capacitor (resonant cavity) - the water was only between the inner rod and the outer cylinder.  Don't see anyone following this approach - why not?

I would not be surprised if Meyer's wasn't electrolysing at all...

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 15, 2008, 10:20:01 PM
I can't find an acceptable reference to support it's use (piezo that is).

I also read several explanations of how Meyer's devices work and none of them fit.  For example, Meyer used an insulated housing for his water capacitor (resonant cavity) - the water was only between the inner rod and the outer cylinder.  Don't see anyone following this approach - why not?

I would not be surprised if Meyer's wasn't electrolysing at all...



Actually everything in his cell was submerged in water, besides how can you trust that whatever records exist will be telling the truth? Why do you think he is dead now and not alive? Coincidence? Misteriously after he died 2 weeks later all his equipment including the dune buggy vanished, how is there supposed to be even one accurate record of his work except for what the patent office is willing to disclose? Not to mention - the patent office = the government ... so fat chance they'll be crapping in their own backyard. What we see on the net is a 1001 interpretations of how his devices might have worked and thats all we have to go with, but neither one of those solutions by itself is really the answer, it's like a big puzzle - all we know it is working and perfectly possible, everything else is just interpretations, you have to pick the points in each interpretation that make the most sense and closest resemble his explanations in the videos (because those are the only real proof of what he really had to say - papers and drawings can be fakes or disinformation) and puzzle the thing together and then and only then will you find the real truth. He was right K.I.S.S. is the motto ... Keep it simple stupid. And simple it is - really if one is willing to open their eyes and ears (and mind perhaps). But thats my point of view - everybody has to make their own mind up, I made mine up. :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: Grumpy on December 15, 2008, 11:51:34 PM
Actually everything in his cell was submerged in water, ...

...But thats my point of view - everybody has to make their own mind up, I made mine up. :)

I don't think it will work with everything submerged.

I made up my mind too.  We'll see how it goes.

EDIT:

Stans gives a figure of 22 gallons of water to drive the dune buggy across the USA in the "Action News" video - this is not conventional electrolysis or HHO production - period.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 19, 2008, 04:36:31 AM
Well, Buzz ... I agree :) Nice 9V Torch :) I like. What I am going after are 35L / min. at approx. 48 to 60 W input. Well not going after ... more like "went after" LOL and there is more truth to it than one would even begin to imagine :) *jumping up and down* Stan Meyer was right with everything he was saying if people would only read his plans and explanations right ... we would already have long been over the hill and tearing down oil refineries and obsolete power plants ... but it still will happen the way it was meant to be ...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 21, 2008, 12:05:22 AM
Well, Buzz ... right on the money :) It is the Voltage, not the current :) Good News: The cell seems to be ready with the mod's for the sonic transducers - at last (I am sorry for the delay) but you do not just cough up shit like that from one day to another, it requires engineering and consideration in regards to what you are actually dealing with ... so it is done - thanks to some people in my life - I do have the person who is an ace in regards to engineering and manufacturing of  heating / cooling systems (extremely talented and capable guy - responsible for the cell construction and engineering to my specs) and I do have the other guy - also extremely skilled and capable and experience in ultra sonics and life force energy (quantum mechanics, resonance and white noise) for over 30 years and then in turn his electronics guy who does the manufacturing of all his frequency generators and power amplifiers. We got the perfect combination of people and skills and equipment and now slowly but surely it is time for us to put all the pieces together and call it a day. I will never lack appreciation and credit for these people in my life because this would not have been possible without their skills and input and last but not least ... perhaps my ability to research, learn and understand :) ... the rest well ... we shall see ... :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: Grumpy on December 21, 2008, 05:13:22 AM
perhaps the piezo material is being used as a dielectric

 ;)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 21, 2008, 05:15:40 PM
Well all six piezos are entirely isolated from the water so we do not have any voltage leaks whatsoever - I got the cell from the shop today but I am still waiting on the power drivers for the resonator block so this might take me another week or so but we shall see said the blind man ( ... ran into the wall and broke his nose) LOL :) Anyways ... as soon as I have the drivers for those suckers and my secondary cirsuit I'll put the whole thing together and will post my findings :) I am sure to 99.9% we have got it covered and it will be fully operational as anticipated within operational limits :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: Voltrolysis on December 21, 2008, 11:25:35 PM
I'm working on http://h2o0il.com/Stanley-Allen-Meyer-Diagrams/meyer-triode-better-ventation-and-better-surface-efficiency.png (http://h2o0il.com/Stanley-Allen-Meyer-Diagrams/meyer-triode-better-ventation-and-better-surface-efficiency.png) drawings for  3 concentrics and making both sufaces functional on the center tube. ::)

In order to cool off the hot burning hho when it is the only fuel for ice (internet combustion)...I'm looking at these ultrasonic foggers for steam conversion, to lower the temp and keep the hydrogen from entering the metals exposed to the explosion, weaking their crystal structure.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 21, 2008, 11:50:45 PM
You guys are going way to complex about the whole thing ... read through my last few posts. Not being negative or discouraging - I am very open minded but always remember, keep things as simple as possible :)

P.S. Remember we are talking about electrostatic bonds - not magnetic bonds.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: chessnyt on December 22, 2008, 01:25:02 AM
Hi Peter,

I must commend you on your honest reply to some suggestions I gave you earlier.  I am a man with small children as well and so I do indeed empathize with your sentiment.
 
I am interested in building a complete working unit on a slightly smaller scale in order to run a modified Brigs and Straton small one cylinder engine (5 Horse Power) until the engine fails from wear.
 
I was hoping you might know where I could get complete plans to put together a small version of a WFC that uses a “Meyer-like” approach to fracture the water molecules without causing a rise in the reactors (Cell’s) water temperature. 

Sincerely,

Joe
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 23, 2008, 01:06:23 AM
I am sorry Joe, to this day I am yet to see one person who has interpreted Meyer's plans accurately. There doesn't seem to be any. The reason is simple - most people have a job and a life (unlike myself) and they treat the whole development of such a device as 'extracarricular activity' ... as long as someone treats it as such you cannot expect any great success - once you decide to fully devote yourself to the cause you will get the answers you need to achieve the intended results. I used to do it like most others until 2006 ... well I did do it on the side and I had a full time job ... then I got kicked out of Canada I had gotten so used to and therewith lost my job and life and everythng that came with it and the whole thing froze in time ... in 2007 I was in San Diego and met a lovely girl I fell in Love with ... she advised me to try to go back to Canada but that did not work to well for me, so Canada sent me back to Europe and then she got me back into the HHO develpment because that would be the only thing apparantly that would give us the ability to be back together again ... so I got back into it and now almost entirely done - what normally would take years took only months instead ... this is my story - believe it or not.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: peterpierre on December 23, 2008, 09:30:35 PM
So, no more comments? Anybody? LOL  ;D
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design - Dave Lawton Instructions.
Post by: Grumpy on December 23, 2008, 09:57:58 PM
So, no more comments? Anybody? LOL  ;D

No.  Said what I had to say already.  I'm just watching and letting you "roll on" with it.

Keep an eye on the "cavitation" thread - Buzz and others have made some comments there regarding Meyer's work.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on December 25, 2008, 10:02:35 PM
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to ya'all :) Hope everyone got what they wanted ... my Christmas was kindda shotty ... spent it all by myself - what can I say - last Christmas was way way way better but there is always the next one to look forward to, maybe that will be ok again. :) Cheers, Pete
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: chessnyt on December 27, 2008, 03:08:48 AM
Peter,

What do you think of Ravi's cell?  He claims to be using only 520mA with his cell.  A little more than just 1/2 amp is pretty good, right?  Should I follow his plans?

The video is here:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9XrLOudwRw
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on December 27, 2008, 03:15:06 AM
Peter,

What do you think of Ravi's cell?  He claims to be using only 520mA with his cell.  A little more than just 1/2 amp is pretty good, right?  Should I follow his plans?

The video is here:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9XrLOudwRw

He is following Dave Lawtons plans - which in turn are an attempt to replicate Stanley Meyers PWM circuit, I did initially too however there is a flaw in the design, the two entry resistors are to weak as per dave lawton specs. 100 Ohm 0.25W should be replaced with at least 100 Ohm at 0.5W or even better at 1 W. Also the diagrams you see is only the primary circuit, you need the secondary circuit as well also commonly known as VIC. Without the VIC the PWM is virtually useless. You also may consider piezo resonators which increase the effect.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Grumpy on December 27, 2008, 04:06:26 AM
Without the VIC the PWM is virtually useless. You also may consider piezo resonators which increase the effect.

You can't make this statement until you have the goods.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on December 27, 2008, 04:08:43 AM
You can't make this statement until you have the goods.

Is that so? Well look I am only talking about things I already know because I have already done them. Ok? The two entry resistors are indeed to weak for this circuit - I know because I already burned 2 of them out and learned my lesson so it is a verified by me personally fact. I also have used that very same pulser as RAVI has - same schematics on my cell and the pulser itself does virtually nothing except for limit the current and run your cell cooler. The circuit all by itself does not produce more HHO especially not with the specified 12V at 6A. And why you are being grumpy today - I have absolutely no clue ... LOL - Did Santa not bring you what you wished for?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Grumpy on December 27, 2008, 03:39:05 PM
maybe I misunderstood you

what "effect" do piezo resonators improve?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on December 27, 2008, 04:34:08 PM
Pretty much they have the very same effect as an electric resonating field would have - depending on how they are mounted the effect can be greater or lesser than the effect of an electric resonating field, however if both are combined (electric and electro-mechanical) and one produces a harmonic sub and/or overtone of the base resonance you better buckle up for some surprises ... wether they will be pleasant or unpleasant is a different question but there is no way that it will have "no effect".
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: chessnyt on December 29, 2008, 04:40:59 AM
Hello Everyone,

After reading a little more of the details in this thread, it has become obvious to me that this thread is not really going anywhere.  I now realize that the prospects of this whole thread going anywhere for the furthering of the Stan Meyer WFC technology hinges on disclosure of the building of the cell from start to finish.
 
As it stands, we are many minds trying to help only one guy (because through vague and obscure feedback from the one person who has the furthest developed WFC here, it is impossible for me to even have a good rough idea on where to begin) who in turn is telling us basically we are either hot or cold in our thinking/ideas being offered or guessed. 

If we indeed help Peter (or the case may even be that he doesn’t need our help) in succeeding with his WFC project with either equal or similar results of such people such as Stan Meyer, one of the following things will occur.  He will first, most likely, be approached by the oil industry and be offered a buyout agreement like they did in the case of Stan Meyer.  We know beforehand that Peter will accept their offer as he has stated this earlier in this thread.  When Peter accepts their offer, he will enter a point of no return.  I’ve reviewed similar offers to inventors from large entities (such as the oil industry) and they always seem to contain two stipulations consistently.  One is that the inventor is contractually prohibited from developing, manufacturing, disclosing, or in any way furthering the development of his invention or technology.  The second stipulation in such agreements is that the inventor is even prohibited from divulging who has bought him out.  A breech of any of the above stipulations usually are tied to threats of severe legal consequences such as returning all of the money that was paid to the inventor and any damages incurred by the breach of contract (including but not limited to the cost of high priced attorneys and litigating expenses).

Even if Peter changed his mind at this point and decided to provide specific and exact building instructions of his WFC to us, he would already be forever prohibited legally from doing so.  He simply could not.

If, for the sake of argument, Peter did not take any buyout offers, things would most likely go the way of the buffalo.  Peter would get to join the growing list (just to name a few) of successful alternative energy inventors before him like Stan Meyer, Arie M. DeGeus, Edwin V. Gray, Rory Johnson, Eugene Mallove, etc.  all of which are no longer with us.

The implications of Peter or anyone else succeeding by themselves are of epic proportions.  The oil industry is a deeply entrenched, multi-trillion dollar power base that will not go quietly, I assure you.  Nobody ever wins.  EVER!   
 
Our only shot at succeeding is together through open sourced efforts in a new thread where everything is disclosed for the benefit of all.  Peter would not have even benefited from Dave Lawton’s circuitry in the first place if Dave was not an open source engineer sharing his technological contributions free of charge for whoever is interested.  And by the way, Ravi discovered the flaw in Dave’s plans and gives the remedy for the two inferior 100 ohm resistors in his latest PDF file that I am giving a link to.

Anybody who is seriously interested in building a replicable successful water fuel cell that really works and performs at least over 100 percent efficiency, please privately e-mail me at chessnyt@yahoo.com.

I am attaching the latest complete as I can find information on a WFC that Ravi (another open source engineer) has released to the public free of charge that our new group can start building from.

Selfishness will get us nowhere.  Our planet becomes more damaged the longer we do nothing.  Please write me and download Ravi’s latest PDF file.  Together let us begin another thread on this site where we can reach success together and end the certain destruction of our planet and the iron control of the oil industry at the same time. 

Ravi’s latest PDF file can be found at this link:  http://www.esmhome.org/library/stan-meyer/
The PDF file is named ravi.pdf and is dated July 17, 2008.  The size is 1.8MB.

Sincerely,

Joe 
chessnyt@yahoo.com

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on December 31, 2008, 12:12:08 AM
Hello Everyone,

After reading a little more of the details in this thread, it has become obvious to me that this thread is not really going anywhere.  I now realize that the prospects of this whole thread going anywhere for the furthering of the Stan Meyer WFC technology hinges on disclosure of the building of the cell from start to finish.
 
As it stands, we are many minds trying to help only one guy (because through vague and obscure feedback from the one person who has the furthest developed WFC here, it is impossible for me to even have a good rough idea on where to begin) who in turn is telling us basically we are either hot or cold in our thinking/ideas being offered or guessed. 

If we indeed help Peter (or the case may even be that he doesn’t need our help) in succeeding with his WFC project with either equal or similar results of such people such as Stan Meyer, one of the following things will occur.  He will first, most likely, be approached by the oil industry and be offered a buyout agreement like they did in the case of Stan Meyer.  We know beforehand that Peter will accept their offer as he has stated this earlier in this thread.  When Peter accepts their offer, he will enter a point of no return.  I’ve reviewed similar offers to inventors from large entities (such as the oil industry) and they always seem to contain two stipulations consistently.  One is that the inventor is contractually prohibited from developing, manufacturing, disclosing, or in any way furthering the development of his invention or technology.  The second stipulation in such agreements is that the inventor is even prohibited from divulging who has bought him out.  A breech of any of the above stipulations usually are tied to threats of severe legal consequences such as returning all of the money that was paid to the inventor and any damages incurred by the breach of contract (including but not limited to the cost of high priced attorneys and litigating expenses).

Even if Peter changed his mind at this point and decided to provide specific and exact building instructions of his WFC to us, he would already be forever prohibited legally from doing so.  He simply could not.

If, for the sake of argument, Peter did not take any buyout offers, things would most likely go the way of the buffalo.  Peter would get to join the growing list (just to name a few) of successful alternative energy inventors before him like Stan Meyer, Arie M. DeGeus, Edwin V. Gray, Rory Johnson, Eugene Mallove, etc.  all of which are no longer with us.

The implications of Peter or anyone else succeeding by themselves are of epic proportions.  The oil industry is a deeply entrenched, multi-trillion dollar power base that will not go quietly, I assure you.  Nobody ever wins.  EVER!   
 
Our only shot at succeeding is together through open sourced efforts in a new thread where everything is disclosed for the benefit of all.  Peter would not have even benefited from Dave Lawton’s circuitry in the first place if Dave was not an open source engineer sharing his technological contributions free of charge for whoever is interested.  And by the way, Ravi discovered the flaw in Dave’s plans and gives the remedy for the two inferior 100 ohm resistors in his latest PDF file that I am giving a link to.

Anybody who is seriously interested in building a replicable successful water fuel cell that really works and performs at least over 100 percent efficiency, please privately e-mail me at chessnyt@yahoo.com.

I am attaching the latest complete as I can find information on a WFC that Ravi (another open source engineer) has released to the public free of charge that our new group can start building from.

Selfishness will get us nowhere.  Our planet becomes more damaged the longer we do nothing.  Please write me and download Ravi’s latest PDF file.  Together let us begin another thread on this site where we can reach success together and end the certain destruction of our planet and the iron control of the oil industry at the same time. 

Ravi’s latest PDF file can be found at this link:  http://www.esmhome.org/library/stan-meyer/
The PDF file is named ravi.pdf and is dated July 17, 2008.  The size is 1.8MB.

Sincerely,

Joe 
chessnyt@yahoo.com



Look guys, I'm not perfect - I never claimed to be perfect. Yes I can make it open source if need to be but you said yourself what the consequence of that very likely will be, so what did you expect from me? What is it that you - the community wants from me? I do not know if Ravi discovered this weakness in Lawton's circuit all I remember is pointing it out to him long time before today because it happened to me, if you wanna question that - get in touch with Ravi and if he ain't to busy, he might just respond and right you are - in reality seen I have not come around to ask for your help, I have come around to share whatever findings are necessary to animate your thought process, if thats not enough, then I do not know what is. I do not know what kind of a sheltered life you had but mine was not sheltered at all - it was pretty shitty to say the least and I have been working hard to get to the point where I am at, no one has given me the complete answer to anything - only hints - just as I am right now giving to you. No one will serve the holy grail on a silver platter - just in case you haven't gotten the message right yet - I have not done anything wrong so I really really would appreciate it if you do NOT judge me for my beliefs and ways of thinking or acting, I have not caused harm to anyone.

Thank You,

Pete

P.S. If you guys want to declare this thread for dead - fine by me, go right ahead, I said what I needed to say with all due respect and on another note, Dave Lawton's circuit - despite flaw been corrected is no longer employed in this application due to it being limited in amps and frequency, so if you are counting my success by what Dave Lawton disclosed to the public, think again.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: CrazyEwok on December 31, 2008, 03:05:57 AM
Peter,
Please don't let the spectators and "idealists" stop you from posting. I have found your posts and the information that you have provided helpful and usually fairly correct (or correct enough for myself to get the rest of the problem sorted). As you said there is no free lunches in this world (not your words but you get that) and thats all the lazy people want. I look forward about hearing your results of your tests and any video you can supply.

On a personal note from myself, i am yet to see someone produce enough sustainable HHO to run a car / truck, if i saw such a feat done this would by far increase the likely hood of the cat skinning senario (if it can be done one way it can be done many ways) So good luck to you and i will hold no grudge against you if you perfect your device and sell it off. I just ask that you do a demonstration here and maybe help others in their experiments. Also if you do perfect it i would really like to see some video of your device. just seeing it in action would be awesome and awe inspiring.

Saving the world from polution is one thing. But remember that even some of histories greatest men died poor. Don't follow in their foot steps...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: chessnyt on January 01, 2009, 03:23:22 AM
Dear Peter,

I was never under the assumption that you (or anybody else for this matter) were perfect.  I’ve yet to meet such a person.  I can never expect anybody on this planet to ever be perfect let alone myself.  I have my shortcomings as we all do.  I can walk on water, providing the water is frozen, but that is the closest I can come to being anywhere near perfect.

As far as the “kind of a sheltered life” statement that you assumingly suppose to be the case in my upbringing, I can assure you that you didn’t want to really open that door with me.  I am one of three children from a broken family (where my parents divorced and went separate ways) where I dropped out of school with my only official High School Diploma being a General Education Diploma (or GED for short as it is called in the U.S.).   Before dropping out of school, at the age of 14, my first job was at a local liquor store as a box boy sweeping and mopping the floor and stocking merchandise.  I had to work illegally under the table (as I was too young to obtain a work permit in my state) for an hourly wage of $2.10 an hour. 

After dropping out of High School, I went to work full time in a factory making minimum wage.  My mother remarried and her new husband kicked me out of the house forcing me to live in a seedy motel with no kitchen, refrigerator or stove to cook food with.  I had to buy non-perishable foods (such as peanut butter, honey and canned goods) as I had no means to cook or keep food fresh.  I washed what little dishes I owned in the shower as my only sink was only large enough to wash my hands in.

My girlfriend at the time left me (and I didn’t blame her) as I had barely enough income to support myself let alone provide any kind of a life for her or a future family. 

My sister didn’t fare as well as me.  She turned to a life of drugs which eventually led to her incarceration. 

My brother joined a branch of the military and after four years of service was honorably discharged.

I went on to join an apprenticeship program in which I eventually became a Class “A” Journeyman Electrician making a decent living.  I am currently working as an electrician for a company that manufactures parts for the aerospace and automotive industries.  I specialize in Motor Controls and PLC automation.

I could go on to include greater travesties in my upbringing and other economical obstacles that I have had to overcome earlier in my lifetime, but I think what I have stated thus far shall suffice.

If this is the wonderful “sheltered life” that I have led as described above, then I would hate to have seen what the unsheltered version would have looked like.  I say all this not to complain (as some have had much worse than I) but to simply put to rest the notion that my life was some sort of a fairy tale existence with a silver spoon in my right hand.  If not for the level of adversity in my early life, I would not be the same person that I have become today.  I am not ashamed of my humble beginnings past.  It has served to make me stronger.

I am not judging you or accusing you of any wrongdoing.  If this is what you are suggesting, then you have completely misunderstood my earlier posting.  What I am actually trying to point out is that every individual attempt to successfully make the WFC technology (of the Stan Meyer nature) accessible to the public thus far has failed. 

The key word here is “individual”.  As an individual, if I am successful in further developing Ravi’s WFC to the point it can be mass produced and made available to the general public, but I do so without making public exact replication building instructions, then all the current energy providers need to do is to stop one person.  This is a tremendous advantage they have not only previously exploited, but they have also come to count on.  They love those who go it alone.  It makes it much easier to fight people who are isolated than it is to fight a large group of people who are publicly connected making the technology public domain. 

On the contrary, if I am part of a community effort (which is why I joined this wonderful website in the first place), then the powers that be can eliminate me entirely and still fail to stop the end result which is to end their solid reign and the certain destruction of our planet in the process.  The community based efforts of selfless men such as Dave Lawton and Ravi Raju (who are both open sourced engineers) can not be erased by the untimely demise of either man.  This is what, in my opinion, has kept them alive (unlike Stanley Meyer, Dr. Henry Puharich, and Dr. Yull Brown for example). 

I am not expecting anyone to hand me anything!  I have worked hard for what I have today and none of it was handed to me on a silver platter.  I intend to continue to work hard at furthering the WFC technology in my spare time sharing with and learning from other more intelligent persons than I as we accomplish our common goal together.  Together is the only way that we will ever get there.  Of this I am sure.

With or without you, Peter, the open source community will arrive at complete success.  It would be nice to have your help, but we will continue in the absence of anybody’s assistance until the world ultimately benefits from the research and design of water as an alternate fuel source. 

I don’t need to see another video proving the technology works for me to keep motivated and moving forward.  Just imagining the situation the world will become when the planet is either polluted to death or we run out of fossil fuel resources is enough inspiration for me.  I believe that when you are no longer part of the solution, you automatically become part of the problem.

Sincerely,

Joe 


       
 
         

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: froarty on January 01, 2009, 11:21:42 PM
You want to encourage pitting not reduce it! see hydrino production http://byzipp.com/energy/index.php  AND Casimir Fusion http://byzipp.com/energy/blog3.php
anomalous heat readings reported in failed cold fusion experiments and seemingly fradulent claims of HHO devices supplementing automtive fuel systems are being generated by casimir force. Instead of just pushing microscopic plates together and extinguishing the exclusion field, we utilize Casimir cavities where permanent exclusion fields exist because the plate geometry is fixed. This creates a "safe harbor" where longer vacuum flucuations are restricted and the ratio of short to long flucuations is different than normal space-time. These cavities can occur naturally in metals and semiconductors but occur most frequently in electrodes with high surface area and skeletal catalysts like Rayney nickel used by Black Light Power to produce hydrinos. They can also be formed inadvertently thru chemical leaching of metal materials immersed in an electrolyte to form primitive skeletal catalysts. These cavities allow gas atoms to relax their electrons into novel orientations only possible inside the Casimir exclusion field. If however two of these relaxed atoms happen to form a covalent bond while inside this exclusion field then the novell electron orientation can be preserved outside the field with one atoms' orbital leveraged against the others' through their molecular bond. When this new molecule exits the casimir field the stream of normally chaotic vacuum fluctuations must align in an organized boundary of potential energy waiting to sweep these arrogant little electrons back down into their normal orientation of least resistance. Depending on the type of gas atoms used it can form a molecule like the hydrino cited in a 5/8/2008 CalTech description and patent and long claimed by Black Light Power as their energy transport, or, depending on how "stressed" this molecules' orbitals become may have its' covalent bond ripped apart supplying heat into the electrolyte and accounting for the anomalous readings often associated with cold fusion. Black Light Power takes its' name from the plasma color generated by these tearing hydrino bonds which are just the same as those in cold fusion anomalies but on a scale magnitudes higher
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on January 02, 2009, 11:40:15 PM
You want to encourage pitting not reduce it! see hydrino production http://byzipp.com/energy/index.php  AND Casimir Fusion http://byzipp.com/energy/blog3.php
anomalous heat readings reported in failed cold fusion experiments and seemingly fradulent claims of HHO devices supplementing automtive fuel systems are being generated by casimir force. Instead of just pushing microscopic plates together and extinguishing the exclusion field, we utilize Casimir cavities where permanent exclusion fields exist because the plate geometry is fixed. This creates a "safe harbor" where longer vacuum flucuations are restricted and the ratio of short to long flucuations is different than normal space-time. These cavities can occur naturally in metals and semiconductors but occur most frequently in electrodes with high surface area and skeletal catalysts like Rayney nickel used by Black Light Power to produce hydrinos. They can also be formed inadvertently thru chemical leaching of metal materials immersed in an electrolyte to form primitive skeletal catalysts. These cavities allow gas atoms to relax their electrons into novel orientations only possible inside the Casimir exclusion field. If however two of these relaxed atoms happen to form a covalent bond while inside this exclusion field then the novell electron orientation can be preserved outside the field with one atoms' orbital leveraged against the others' through their molecular bond. When this new molecule exits the casimir field the stream of normally chaotic vacuum fluctuations must align in an organized boundary of potential energy waiting to sweep these arrogant little electrons back down into their normal orientation of least resistance. Depending on the type of gas atoms used it can form a molecule like the hydrino cited in a 5/8/2008 CalTech description and patent and long claimed by Black Light Power as their energy transport, or, depending on how "stressed" this molecules' orbitals become may have its' covalent bond ripped apart supplying heat into the electrolyte and accounting for the anomalous readings often associated with cold fusion. Black Light Power takes its' name from the plasma color generated by these tearing hydrino bonds which are just the same as those in cold fusion anomalies but on a scale magnitudes higher

Instead of using electrodes with electric potential, or using piezo-electric or sonic waves to seperate the hydrogen, start giving a thought to a much more promising method.

If you take a radiowave transmitter with a crystal fixed on the resonant frequency of water, you can transmit the radiowaves through the vessel the water is contained in to destabilize the water molecules and cause the hydrogen to seperate with no additional input.

The resonant frequency of water is 45.8 khz.  Instead of buying an expensive and inefficiant variable radio frequency transmitter, you can order the exact frequency crystal and plug it into an old analog radio transmitter which accepts these fixed frequency crystals.  To see an example of what radio waves alone can do to water, just watch the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OklIm5a1Lc&NR=1
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on January 03, 2009, 01:44:06 PM
Instead of using electrodes with electric potential, or using piezo-electric or sonic waves to seperate the hydrogen, start giving a thought to a much more promising method.

If you take a radiowave transmitter with a crystal fixed on the resonant frequency of water, you can transmit the radiowaves through the vessel the water is contained in to destabilize the water molecules and cause the hydrogen to seperate with no additional input.

The resonant frequency of water is 45.8 khz.  Instead of buying an expensive and inefficiant variable radio frequency transmitter, you can order the exact frequency crystal and plug it into an old analog radio transmitter which accepts these fixed frequency crystals.  To see an example of what radio waves alone can do to water, just watch the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OklIm5a1Lc&NR=1

Thank You for the suggestion and I had given that some extensive thought as I had first heard of it / seen it but according to my latest findings, resonance - generated by high voltage and electromechanical forces is far more effective because it directly interferes with the medium (water), does not require any additives and it produces a fuel which can be controlled fairly easy (increasing / decreasing the ambient air mixture). Radio waves in contrast to this are hindered by certain materials, they can get either blocked or severely distorted at which point the whole solution would loose it's purpose, so unfortunately with this project there is just no more efficient solution than the one with a separate water splitting reactor which then provides the HHO to the engine, I know it is by far not as effective as Victor Schauberger's implosion technology but I just am not there yet :( Remember? One step at a time and one project at the time :) Anyways ... I wish everybody here a Happy and Successful New Year :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on January 08, 2009, 10:11:29 AM
So, seems like either everybody is doing spring cleaning or hibernating ... or possibly decided to declare the thread for dead. Oh well, I'll post a final reasult in these next week or two as anticipated the system is right on schedule in time for early february :) Keep that overunity price ready :P LOL  ;D
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on January 08, 2009, 03:00:43 PM
Hey Peter, are you doing multiple frequencies or a single frequency with the piezos.

Actually they are all individually wired and isolated so I can drive each of the six piezos separately in different formations with different frequencies :) The initial thought was to wire them all to fire the same frequency but I changed that  because from what I figure it will be better if each can be addressed by a separate driver :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on January 20, 2009, 10:32:49 PM
Hey everyone, sorry I've been rare as air but I had to much on my plate and not because of the project but that really does not belong in here LOL. Anyways I am well and this Thursday we'll see some true colors :) Finally - it was about time this comes to an end :) There are other things I wanna mess with, it's just that I never leave a job unfinished, results should be available by the beginning of next week and what the hell, might as well post them with most info needed to replicate them, because if I don't do that some people around me might get greedy and take me out anyways ... you'll have your simplified explanations so you can replicate the system :) At least if someone takes me out I'll know that it will go on - yes - I might not make any or much money if I stay alive but what the hell :P It's just money, right? Oh and FYI ... I did loose my girlfriend ... mainly through my own mistake but I will not elaborate on that here, it's really my problem and not yours.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on January 26, 2009, 01:50:59 AM
Is it just me or did you all declare this thread for dead?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: ramset on January 26, 2009, 02:24:14 AM
Peter

Thank you so much for your research!!
Hope you have a winner

       Chet
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Grumpy on January 26, 2009, 05:36:57 PM
Actually they are all individually wired and isolated so I can drive each of the six piezos separately in different formations with different frequencies :) The initial thought was to wire them all to fire the same frequency but I changed that  because from what I figure it will be better if each can be addressed by a separate driver :)

Hey Peter,

What is the frequency range of your peizo's?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Zipster on January 29, 2009, 05:20:56 AM
Great post indeed, it came on top search when I typed "hho stanley meyer fuel cell" in Google.

I'm looking forward to build the Ravi generator myself. Now, Joe, I need to know a few things before I start. Considering the amount of gas generated is directly linked with the plates surface, how much surface will I need, or how many tubes of what length to make for example 2LPM and how much power (in Amps) will be needed under 12V. Does it have to be DC only or can it work with 60Hz AC?

Don't worry I will not take any customers of yours, I'm in Australia (43degC. atm)!

Have a look at this website.. this is an Indian company, they are selling what they call S.Meyer type cell (no resonator, just plain tubes) have a look: http://www.hydroxygarage.com/cell.html

All the best for Pete, I can't wait to read his results. Did you know that it is possible to expand your power input of 440% before it hits the cell? Check this out http://lutec.com.au .


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And if you want to keep your girlfriend as long as you want without having to worry about that anymore, I suggest you for a few readings on http://fastseduction.com/ ... you will see its real easy to make woman happy. Tschuss!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Zipster on January 30, 2009, 05:15:02 AM
Dear Buzz,

I'm not targeting S.Meyer's techniques at all, its certainly too edgy for me. What I would like to replicate is what Ravi has done in term of electrolysis. It will take me a while to read through all the discussions on oupower.com as I just discovered it. What I noticed yesterday is that Ravi is using some PWM signal with a specific setting am I right?

Pace out.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Grumpy on January 30, 2009, 05:36:26 AM
Ravi and Lawton missed.

If Peter is at the wrong freq range, he will miss too.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Grumpy on January 30, 2009, 03:55:26 PM
Burn through the bitches!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: ramset on January 30, 2009, 04:38:42 PM
BUZZILLA AND GRUMPENSTIEN

Leading the way

 With all the finesse of a Sledgematic

        Chet[ You go boy's!!]

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: spinner on January 30, 2009, 05:08:24 PM
BUZZILLA AND GRUMPENSTIEN

Leading the way

 With all the finesse of a Sledgematic

        Chet[ You go boy's!!]



He he ;)...
The "Saint" Buzz, Grumpy and mr. Ramses are still the best pair....  ;D


What, you guys are getting bored?  Why did you live your home terrain ( the "cavitation" thread)?

Is the world facing the "Ultimate Revelation" now?
Heil, Gods!

Please, be gentle with the stupid people - peons - like me....
Ave!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: ramset on January 30, 2009, 05:36:33 PM
Spinner
How many years has it been TWENTY?? more[Meyers?]

The secrets of water, will be secrets no more

   Chet

 Water does not have the characteristics of the living, but without water there is no life.......

Water does not have the.....expressions of life (growth,fertilization, reproduction, metamorphosis, nourishment,metabolism and so on), but these all only become possible through water........

 

What is it that enables water to accomplish this?

 

By renouncing every self quality it becomes the creative substance for the generation of all forms.

By renouncing every life of it's own it becomes the primal substance for all life. By renouncing every fixed substance it becomes the carrier of all substance transformation. By renouncing every rthythm of it's own it becomes the carrier of each and every rthythm.

Theodore Schwenk
   

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Zipster on January 31, 2009, 05:55:38 AM
Never give up. One man made it, he was certainly no wizzard, just a man like you and me. So don't you fuckin give up, ever. If you missed the point, it means you are on the right track. Many people around the planet are working on it as we speak... don't you worry.

So heads up gentlemen.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: GadgetMan on February 04, 2009, 04:04:53 PM
I think you'll find the best results to be between 14 and 16 KHz.

Other than that, you seem to be on track...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: turbo on February 05, 2009, 04:12:37 PM
I think you'll find the best results to be between 14 and 16 KHz.

Other than that, you seem to be on track...

I was reading this paper on splitting water with RF energy:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item16 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item16)

And i noticed they use the same frequency (13.56Mhz) as the RFID Transponders use.....

Is that just coincedence or what??  ::)

Maybe they deliberatly reserved this frequency so they can say hey you cant use that.  :-\

M.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Dave45 on February 05, 2009, 05:55:10 PM
please excuse my ignorance but what is a rfid transponder.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Dave45 on February 05, 2009, 05:59:53 PM
 >:( never mind the control chip- not me, the only way they will inject me is after Im dead.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: ramset on February 05, 2009, 06:09:10 PM
Dave

Radio frequency Identification

Apparently allocated already for another use [As pointed out by Marco]

So if you transmit you get a knock on the door [no MIB  just the way it is]

 I would think a Faraday cage would stop this from happening

 It is a good idea to never transmit
 
Chet
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: xinmogg on February 09, 2009, 08:54:35 PM
Hey Peterpierre,

I am getting a bit worried about you. After following this topic for some weeks I got really anxious too read about your results. Now your deadline has well passed and you have stopped posting for a while ??? Are you still with us? Is there any help you could use with finishing your experiment?
I`m keeping my fingers crossed for your success ! And please drop a line or two if you can to give us an update.

Cheers,

Xinmogg
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: xinmogg on February 09, 2009, 08:55:47 PM
Hey Peterpierre,

I am getting a bit worried about you. After following this topic for some weeks I got really anxious too read about your results. Now your deadline has well passed and you have stopped posting for a while ??? Are you still with us? Is there any help you could use with finishing your experiment?
I`m keeping my fingers crossed for your success ! And please drop a line or two if you can to give us an update.

Cheers,

Xinmogg
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Zipster on March 03, 2009, 02:45:50 AM
In hope Peterpierre is not in jail for beating up his woman or dead from being severely electrocuted, here is a link that might help his business.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on June 24, 2009, 12:33:29 AM
Alright guys, sorry bout me disappearing again on you - I am not in jail - haven't beaten up anybody (you just don't do things like that - especially not to a woman) ... electrocuted I am not either, contrair to common beliefs and no ... I did not get arrested or killed by any government or oil company - however I have kept on going with my work and finally there is light at the end of the tunnel - it is very hard to hold all ends together especially with me being in a new country now and stuff. Anyways the electronics turned out to be quite a bit more complex than my initial assumptions permitted me to imagine. The pulse train pattern is very complex and has to be compensated (almost constantly) and you have to compensate for distortions in the pattern cause through induction coupling - still - stan meyer is very accurate on the fact that voltage does the work, however that VIC is also far more complex than the actual schematic suggests because just a ferrite ring core transformer doesn't cut it quite - there is much more to it but with some help from the people I am working with we have been puzzling the whole thing together without much talk and publicity, so the results as originaly promised will be delivered - as soon as present :) Looking good guys - sometimes keeping your mouth shut or lying (if necessary) through your teeth might make the difference between succeeding or failing miserably, for all of you who are bound for success in matters of free energy, just try to mimic the strategies the US government uses in order to hide or twist things ... might be very helpful :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Gauss on July 09, 2009, 09:20:20 AM
I would like to suggest to all Stan Meyer experimenters to try very soft rubber spacers(3 each at the top and bottom) and a free hanging cell in the electric cables, the SS316L cylinders must be allowed to vibrate. Use no coils, just pulse the cell with at least 2.5 Volts 50% duty cycle square wave. Use distilled water. You will get HHO, it is that simple, check for yourself.

I call it vibralysis and I suspect Meyer´s work is all about vibration of crystals and acoustic tuning. The HV and low amps are needed to drive the crystal(s) or actuator(s)..
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 09, 2009, 01:31:33 PM
I thank you for your suggestion - I appreciate it but ultimately it comes too late because I cracked the math on the system already and it does exactly what it should be doing and with deepest regret must point out to you that you got the whole process completely wrong interpreted, but as I always like to say - nice try :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Gauss on July 09, 2009, 02:18:01 PM
How many replicators do you have? ;D

I have many... :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 09, 2009, 05:24:48 PM
What is it that you call a "replicator"? LOL ... are you referring to the cell or to a "secret ingredient" LMAO  ;D
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Gauss on July 09, 2009, 08:43:23 PM
You sure got it Peter.... ;) A kid who wants to do lots of HHO from distilled water can now do it in less than 10 minutes with some soft rubber spacers and the cell hanging freely in the water;D



Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 09, 2009, 08:54:04 PM
Um, I am glad this works out for you great but from the little bit I have heard from you so far - your approach and my approach are groundbreakingly different ... kindda like the difference between night and day. First of all - distilled water is a no no for my system and secondly I bet our electronics and values of current and voltage are entirely different as well and definitely no free hanging electrodes for me please LOL :D
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: ramset on July 09, 2009, 09:01:06 PM
Gauss
Distilled water? vibrations? Could you explain more ?
I don't find this at all funny.It sounds very, very interesting

Thank you
Chet
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 09, 2009, 10:17:37 PM
Tap Water - at first - why bother with distilled? First to expensive secondly you get a much better bang out of tap water and a better gas to that. Breakdown of tap water is also easier than the breakdown (at least for people utilizing common electrolysis - like your system seems to do) ... Vibrations is correct but not in the way you are doing it ...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Gauss on July 10, 2009, 10:16:20 AM
Yes, you can do HHO with distilled water and 2.5 V input, and with tap water of course, with tap water gas production and amps rise and efficiency drops from more electrolysis effect(we suspect). To show the principle of vibralysis distilled water is best.

3 MOhm water resistance between cylinders and 10 amps running at 30V input - that is truly breaking many laws of physics! Even better, ANY FREQUENCY WORKS.... No need for coils, conditioned pipes or anything. It just works, always.

The secret is OUT, all the good experimenters like Ravi who had success get VIBRATIONS at the bottom of their cylinders(receiver and transmitter system vibrating freely, one sheet metal side attached to the foam/rubber spacers might just give more gas but still unconfirmed, rubber dampens vibrations that is why we need crystals in the future) because they use soft rubber or foam spacers between the cylinders, also Ravi had foam spacers!

Put 3 soft spacers in the top(120 deg apart with gaps for gas to escape and 3 soft spacers in the bottom(120 deg apart) between the cylinders and hang them in their electric cables inside the water so the cylinders can swing like a teeter. The longer and thinner cylinders you use the better production you get. If you fix the pipes you get NO GAS or almost nothing at least depending on the stiffness of the holder.

All the vibralysis gas is produced at the bottom of the cylinders, hence we know how to relate to a tuning fork. Acoustic tuning of the cylinders will be the melody of the future. Conditioning like Ravi will produce crystalline coating which also vibrates, hence a higher COP is obtained especially from the top where the holders destroy all the vibrations.

A kid can do this simple experiment now. If you want more details apply for membership at ionizationx.com. Good luck!

Peter, you think you are brilliant, special and know alot? Many people do! Just consider the ideas and results of other people, you might learn something.





Gauss
Distilled water? vibrations? Could you explain more ?
I don't find this at all funny.It sounds very, very interesting

Thank you
Chet
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 12, 2009, 11:59:10 AM
I always consider the results of other people my friend - that is not the issue but maybe I am noticing here and there mistakes and I happen to know that in fact because I have made the same mistakes along the way however now I do know much more (perhaps not everything) and maybe there is a reason why I choose not to go into details about what my current and most up to date findings are ... I will soon enough thou.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Gauss on July 13, 2009, 09:41:42 AM
Ok, that sounds fine, I hope you will find real results soon. Maybe you should try to look at Lord Kelvin´s water dropper and the Leo Umila GEET modification to be able to ionize your gas-vapour mix better. It is just a small piece of advice and if you don´t need it maybe others need it....

Good luck and please show us your results asap! Time is short.


I always consider the results of other people my friend - that is not the issue but maybe I am noticing here and there mistakes and I happen to know that in fact because I have made the same mistakes along the way however now I do know much more (perhaps not everything) and maybe there is a reason why I choose not to go into details about what my current and most up to date findings are ... I will soon enough thou.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 13, 2009, 10:01:52 AM
Yes ... short it is - indeed  :(
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 16, 2009, 02:33:30 PM
Peter

Having only just found this thread - unusual place to put it - I have just read through it completely. I'm impressed with your engineering skills in which you appear to excel, but I'm rather interested in what your take on the electrochemistry involved is... or whether you have even given this any thought at all.

The cell build is the easy part, getting lots of gas from very little current is where it tends to get a bit more tricky.

My problem with Meyer-type WFC's is that everyone seems to think voltage alone can pull the water molecule apart, yet no one can offer any balanced chemical equation for the reactions that must take place in order for this to happen. Nor can anyone explain how doing this will ultimately evolve H2 and O2. 

In my experience die-hard Meyer fanatics tend to live in their own little world and simply and conveniently overlook or ignore the electrochemistry as if the science behind this is of little or no consequence... naively assuming, 'it just happens'.

However, anyone who fully understands how standard electrolysis works, will understand too that Faraday's laws of electrolysis, in their simplicity, are quite infallible. Which of course is why educated men often give little credence to voltage based WFC's. 

With ion current and the exchanging of charges on the plates of a standard electrolyser, it all makes sense, it adds up and chemical equations balance. Not so with voltage only, so... any thoughts on this rather crucial matter.

Good luck with your project.  Look forward to the next instalment.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 16, 2009, 02:57:51 PM
Hi there,

Thank You for your feedback. For one - Stanley Meyer "fans" (well they are not really fans else they would pay more attention to his works and explanation) are in the pursuit of fame and money - the easy way - and indeed - the process the original Stan Meyer describes, has nothing to do with electrolysis per-se. For second: current is not what will give you high gas yield, on the contrary it will make it harder if not even impossible to release any significant amount of hydrogen and oxygen (That falls under brute force). There is no balanced chemical equation for the process because it never has been written except for what Stan has recorded so briefly and certain things of course were left out. I agree - standard electrolysis very well falls under Faradays law - no doubt and no question - however if you change one or more parameters on a process defined in a law of physics, you cannot expect that the very same law is still applicable and indeed with accuracy ... the working potential in electricity is voltage, not the current. :) Hope I was able to shed some light on the matter for you.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 16, 2009, 04:02:34 PM
Thanks for replying Peter.

It's not that I need any light shedding on it, I actually have my own theories on what is occuring. It's just that I was curious to know how you would explain the 'work' that voltage alone does to evolve the gases given you have put so much effort into your build.

It is not a dig, its just that everyone assumes voltage will do this 'work', but no one has ever even attempted to explain how this can happen.

I've been at this quite a while and in all that time no one has ever actually explained how voltage alone can evolve the gases - how does pulling electrons off the water molecule (and I don't for a minute think that Meyer's interpretation of this is correct) possibly give you H2 and O2?
I've yet to see a single equation for this reaction. Indeed there are not even any theories I know of to explain the chemistry going on - as I said, lacking any satisfactory explanation for the reaction process, the actual electrochemistry part is always simply ignored.

It would be a mistake to think that Faraday's Laws apply only to standard electrolysis. Whatever the parameters, as long as ions are involved and charges are being exchanged, Faraday's Laws of electrolysis will always hold true as it simply accounts for every charge exchange - every electron - however the said charge exchange may be induced. 

The question you have to ask yourself is, 'Is current flow being induced into the WFC from somewhere other than the supply source?' Now there's a thought.

I daresay there will come a time - when you realise that the voltage itself is not pulling water apart - when you will find you have to start thinking outside of the box - outside of classical science for answers.

I reserve a healthy level of scepticism and can be terribly stubborn. It took me a long time to accept anything other than classical science and see the error of my ways. It's something that happens in it's own time, once you realise that things are not doing what you expect them to do or what classical science says they should be doing. That said, you can't simply ignore the laws of physics - there are always laws of physics that apply.

Will follow your progress with interest.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 16, 2009, 09:00:34 PM
Just wanted to chime in. Pretty simple how voltage does work. Capacitors are conductive plates between an insulating medium. The oxides on the metal actually form capacitors, thus water capacitors certainly do exist, and it is not an abberation, I've built a water capacitor that can charge to 160 volts using tiny amounts of power input.

The way you charge the water capacitor is not with current. You charge it will radiant (static electricity). Static electricity is devoid of current. You keep charging the water until the water breaks down from the voltage. The positive plate and the negative plate (being very very close together) exhibit a physical ripping force on the electron. The electrons are aiming one direction, and the rest of the atom is being pulled the other direction. Since no current is flowing, the potential keeps building, nothing moves (nothing happens at all) until very very VERY high voltage is reached. At some point the ripping voltage is too much for the covalent bond to handle.

When the voltage breakdown occurs, the covalent bonds give up an electron, which is the single electron that joins hydrogen to the oxygen atom. When you shut the pulse off the electrons flow back the hydrogen atoms, making them complete, then the hydrogen is stable and it floats to the surface, hence the requirement for a 50% duty cycle.

I experimented using 20,000 volts. I used a thin plastic sheet to separate two electrodes, with one electrode being a grounded plate. In no possible way, even with only .015" clearance, was I ever able to get more than a tiny bubble to result. I found no correlating between 15,000 volts and hydrogen production. If voltage was able to perform work, it didn't.

I've also built a water capacitor (yes a real capacitor) that I charged up to 160 volts. This didn't do anything as far as making more hydrogen. Trying to charge the water capacitor beyond this level doesn't seem likely to produce hydrogen.

Does anyone have any proof at all that it is even possible to get enough voltage to break down water? In my limited experiments, I've seen no evidence that 15,000 or 20,000 volts in short bursts is enough to do anything. Though, I have never had a real capacitor with this much voltage (I can't figure out how you could charge any capacitor this high because of all the losses).

After about 12 different experiments and 3 years of research, I have finally did the worst thing possible, and have become cynical.

I am certainly not trying to be negative, just telling you that I have given up and have no idea where else to go?




Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 16, 2009, 09:44:01 PM
Hi supermuble,

Were you working with 15 - 20 kV AC or DC? and also did you try it with the bifilar inductors in order to soften the pulses ... also the separator thin plastic sheet never occurred to me as being useful in any way - there should be no separator at all and the electrode distance seems to be too close at .015 distance ... work it actually does, however one must look at it in a slightly different fashion, just remember those laws of physics have not been jotted down yet and a proper explanation is still to be worded in humanly understandable words.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 16, 2009, 10:17:00 PM
Well you have me confused there SM

You initially seem to be saying, 'yes' it can be done, and then by way of your own experiments say that 'no' it can't - or least you couldn't achieve it. So I'm a bit mystified by your post.  When I was talking about 'work' I was referring to voltage doing the work of evolving gases.

Anyway, the most obvious, in-your-face problem is of course that normal tap water conducts from just a very low voltage. There is not much of a dielectric to break down is there... it's a good conductor.

Furthermore if it was simply about voltage pulling the water molecule apart then, yes, all we would need to do would be to insulate one electrode from the water itself.  This way you could build very high potentials up on the plates. But we both know this does not work. Voltage alone will not cause the water molecule to split and reform into H and O.

That said, I do believe that fluctuating electric fields will encourage the water to ionise into OH- and H+ (no free floating electrons).

The real question is where do you go from there?  How and where do you get the resulting H3O+ and OH- to exchange charges to become H and O?

Answer: You need a current flow between the electrodes.

Peter, I'm curious as to why you would want to 'soften' the pulses.  You seem convinced voltage alone will work, in fact you state, 'work it actually does'. I must say, I admire your optimism - I just hope you're not putting too much faith in Meyer's Technical Brief, as like many you might find yourself coming down to earth with a bit of a bump in the near future.

Don't get me wrong though, my apparent negativity is not aimed a WFC technology itself, but rather the credibility of Meyer and his Technical Briefs.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 17, 2009, 02:16:19 AM
I understand the basic principles, but obviously don't know enough to continue working. Lets be clear, I enjoy learning about this, but I am stumped about where to go from here.  ??? ;D

Meyer said that voltage potential alone does split water, and the free electrons are stripped from the water molecule, providing sustained current at the moment of molecular failure (water splitting). Breaking down the water provides free electricity and free hydrogen... If only I knew how to do it. Meyer said the current would only flow when the water was split apart, however since free electrons are literally created from scratch when the water splits, it means you get FREE current, so no input current is really needed. (If only I knew how to do this?)

The water can BE SALT WATER, 100% conductive. The chromium oxides that form on the stainless steel, which is white, and or grey/black is actually the dielectric (not the water). The conditioning takes place which makes one of the electrodes into an insulator. If you don't condition then you don't get any voltage to build. Conditioning has to take place with unidirectional current. Meyer said "unidirectional" pulses. From my studies I've found that the metal plates naturally want to turn into diodes, blocking current flow the more you use them with regular tap water, but you must use basic straight DC current, or pulsed DC, not AC.

Anyway I have some knowledge but even so, I feel completely lost because I cannot see how anyone could possibly condition the plates good enough, or come up with enough electrical power to build 15,000 volts in between the tubes/plates. I don't have enough copper wire to build an inductive coil big enough to provide that sort of power. Perhaps the water spark plug guys and their CDI (capacitor discharge) ignitions would be helpful in providing a huge burst of energy that might charge these things up and help overcome the losses.




Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 17, 2009, 03:09:27 AM
Maybe try to build that charge with the induction coil from a car, the voltages produced out of 12V in reach easily 15kV to 20kV but I would be careful at that point because you might have a unpleasant side effect such as arching and explosive discharges LOL ... I believe water capacitor is charged up to infinite high voltages using secondary output no higher than 400V to 600V at max. ... even those values might be to high ... might be as little as 300V but I'll start out with 400 and see if the darn cell will explode on me LOL
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 17, 2009, 04:26:44 AM
I understand the basic principles, but obviously don't know enough to continue working. Lets be clear, I enjoy learning about this, but I am stumped about where to go from here.  ??? ;D

Meyer said that voltage potential alone does split water, and the free electrons are stripped from the water molecule, providing sustained current at the moment of molecular failure (water splitting). Breaking down the water provides free electricity and free hydrogen... If only I knew how to do it. Meyer said the current would only flow when the water was split apart, however since free electrons are literally created from scratch when the water splits, it means you get FREE current, so no input current is really needed. (If only I knew how to do this?)

The water can BE SALT WATER, 100% conductive. The chromium oxides that form on the stainless steel, which is white, and or grey/black is actually the dielectric (not the water). The conditioning takes place which makes one of the electrodes into an insulator. If you don't condition then you don't get any voltage to build. Conditioning has to take place with unidirectional current. Meyer said "unidirectional" pulses. From my studies I've found that the metal plates naturally want to turn into diodes, blocking current flow the more you use them with regular tap water, but you must use basic straight DC current, or pulsed DC, not AC.

Anyway I have some knowledge but even so, I feel completely lost because I cannot see how anyone could possibly condition the plates good enough, or come up with enough electrical power to build 15,000 volts in between the tubes/plates. I don't have enough copper wire to build an inductive coil big enough to provide that sort of power. Perhaps the water spark plug guys and their CDI (capacitor discharge) ignitions would be helpful in providing a huge burst of energy that might charge these things up and help overcome the losses.

I've conditioned tubes till the whole gap (1.5mm)  was filled with white oxide..  I never saw any voltage build up,  and the oxide layer in water is not a dielectric at all.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 17, 2009, 07:16:44 AM
Newbie, if your oxide is not working, then you have chemicals in the water that is damaging the oxide when it is being created (Just a guess).

Here is an example. Take baking soda and mix it with water. Put two aluminum plates in the water. Now slowly introduce voltage to it. You won't be able to pass a bit of current after about 10 minutes. Now, plug 120 volts AC to the plates, the plates won't flow any voltage at all. You see, the oxide (aluminum oxide) is a dielectric, it does not conduct electricity, and it is in CONDUCTIVE soda bath. Pretty fun experiment. You can charge up aluminum plates because aluminum oxide forms a true water capacitor. The plates will block 99% of the current, so you can charge the thing up as long as you want. Stainless steel forms a similar oxide, but you have to have the right chemicals in the water to get the oxide. I think some chemicals destroy the oxide before it can be formed, or it forms incorrectly. I don't have much experience because I don't have patience trying to condition stainless. And therein lies my confusion. I don't see how Stan got high voltage with stainless? With Aluminum YES, but not with stainless.


Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 17, 2009, 07:47:20 AM
Newbie, if your oxide is not working, then you have chemicals in the water that is damaging the oxide when it is being created (Just a guess).



I'm 99.9 percent sure the oxide layer is only non conductive  when it's completely dry, when wet (and in a cell) current will find a way through the oxide layers (with distilled water)...  making it conductive..   It will restrict current slightly but not much at all...  But the H2 O2 gas bubbles will be much larger  ... Just like in Ravi's videos.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 17, 2009, 07:57:20 AM
Well if the oxide conducts electricity in water, then you don't have a water capacitor. You need to figure out how to form the correct oxide right? Try the same setup with aluminum and baking soda with distilled water. You will have a salt water conductive water that is actually 100% INSULATING, IT WILL NOT FLOW electric current at all because of the aluminum oxide. Then you'll see what I mean. Makes me wonder why stainless steel is necessary at all?

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 17, 2009, 08:12:50 AM
Well if the oxide conducts electricity in water, then you don't have a water capacitor. You need to figure out how to form the correct oxide right? Try the same setup with aluminum and baking soda with distilled water. You will have a salt water conductive water that is actually 100% INSULATING, IT WILL NOT FLOW electric current at all because of the aluminum oxide. Then you'll see what I mean. Makes me wonder why stainless steel is necessary at all?

It sounds to me like you probably just created a diode..  Not so much a capacitor.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=612.0%3Bwap2
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 17, 2009, 09:13:13 AM
SM

Quote
Meyer said that voltage potential alone does split water, and the free electrons are stripped from the water molecule, providing sustained current at the moment of molecular failure (water splitting). Breaking down the water provides free electricity and free hydrogen... If only I knew how to do it.

This is the real heart of the problem in my eyes, the, 'What Meyer said' syndrome. Meyer says a whole lot of things, a lot of which is clearly gobledegook nonsense. This is most peoples downfall. Don't take anything he says literally (remember he has no scientific credentials to his name - don't let the Technical Brief lull you into a false sense of security), or do as I do and accept that his theory is all wrong and nothing he states can be trusted.

Again I don't know why anyone would try to build up a dielectric on the plates by chemical means when you could simply insulate them with, say a clingfilm type material.  Of course once you have a dielectric in place, the action (the voltage) is then across the dielectric ... not where you want it across the water.  The water is then simply acting as one of the electrodes.

Besides, SS is nonreactive in the first place because of it's chromuim oxide layer. This itself is a form of dielectric, but niether this nor the build up of calcium carbonate on the cathode prevent dc current flow.  Put a meter on the calcium carbonate layer and you will find it is a very good insulator, but I guess at molecular level it is very porous.

Again though, the voltage would need to be across the water to be of any use, not across any other dielectric.  To have a water capacitor, the dielectric HAS to be the water itself.

Quote
Makes me wonder why stainless steel is necessary at all?

Right, it wouldn't be if the plates were properly insulated. This in itself tells us that the plates need to conduct - that some current flow is involved in the reaction.

Car ignition coil set ups are very simple using a 555 timer cct. Great arcs, etc. but little or no gasing from a cell when you drop this voltage across the plates. Again this tends to emphasise that voltage alone is not doing the work of evolving gases. But this is all part of the experimenting and learning process.

Peter

Quote
I believe water capacitor is charged up to infinite high voltages using secondary output no higher than 400V to 600V at max

Dielectrics by their very nature tend to be good insulators. How can you conceive of this when tap water is an extremely poor dielectric and in fact readily conducts. How do you go about charging up plates across a conducting medium?  As I said, if you introduce a true dielectric between the plates, the voltage drop is then across that dielectric, NOT across the water.  See the problem?

Some of us have been experimenting with this stuff for many years, and little be little things do tend to start falling into place. But with no real 'Bible' on the science involved to fall back on, it can be slow going, and at times very frustrating.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 17, 2009, 04:37:53 PM
Farrah Day, I agree with everything you said. That's why I say I am stumped... Anyone who claims to have "replicated" Meyer could be a fraud, because Meyer's results were amazing to say the least.

My thoughts-- Using water as a dielectric isn't ever going to happen. A real capacitor has a dielectric film that is invisible to the naked eye because it is literally a few nanometers across (or some very small number). When you use aluminum plates, the aluminum oxide flows current in ONE direction, so water becomes the electrode, with one electrode conducting into the current, the other electrode STOPPING current, yes it is a diode and a capacitor. It is a good capacitor because the dielectric is very thin, so you get very high capacitance.

The beauty of aluminum oxide is that it stops current. Electrolytic capacitors use aluminum (not stainless steel). Maybe someone should try experimenting with aluminum. I know it sounds stupid, but aluminum oxide is used on commercial capacitors. It is made to be a capacitor. I've actually plugged 120 volts AC from the wall outlet, directly to two aluminum plates submerged in distilled water and baking soda. Guess what, not more than a few tiny micro specks of hydrogen bubbles, almost zero current. Now keep something in mind, when you unplug these plates, the voltage drops SLOWLY, because there is no loss.... That means you can build potential the way Meyer said, without having a huge amount of incoming current.

Just my thoughts...  I suppose we should forget about science altogether and just goof around like Meyer did. As most inventors have shown, it doesn't hurt to experiment.






Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 17, 2009, 05:04:14 PM

Just my thoughts...  I suppose we should forget about science altogether and just goof around like Meyer did. As most inventors have shown, it doesn't hurt to experiment.

The chances that Stan Meyer really had a FE/OU cell is pretty slim.  But If he did somehow achieve anomalous gas production, the chances that he 'harnessed' a well known phenomena are much greater than something unknown...  But if he did have  overunity, I still think it had to be  nuclear (i.e. CF)


Meyer says he used voltage potential to produce hydoxy gas...  I think he might have meant electric fields  which can  really effect water...
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/magnetic.html

Here is another phenomena that could tie  into the dielectric/capacitor aspect...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_breakdown
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_avalanche

 


Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 17, 2009, 05:15:10 PM
SM, I totally agree about ali foil capacitors and the dielectric oxide layer.

And yes it is the oxide layer on aluminium that protects it from further oxidation, just as the chromium oxide layer on the SS does.  However, SS is far more inert in electrolysers, especially where electrolytes are used, so SS tends to be the metal of choice.

I'm not sure how much of an insulator the aluminium oxide is in it's micron standard form, (I would guess similar to the chromium oxide of ss) because aluminiun conducts just fine - I have one aluminium cell arrangement that I've experimented with in the past. Using AC is why you didn't get any gas evolved, not because of the oxide layer. Try it again with just a 12 volt battery and see how good the oxide insulates then. ;)

Scratch through the oxide layer of aluminium submerged in water and the aluminium reacts with the water molecule to become aluminium oxide and hydrogen.

My reluctance to trust anything said or written by Meyer is simply down to the fact that I feel he was making up the science to seemingly fit the facts. If Meyer did what he claimed, then his biggest downfall was in trying to invent the science to explain it. Credible scientists would have looked at his Technical Brief, laughed at the psuedoscience and binned it... probably without further considering whether or not he actually had a working device.  If his device worked as claimed, then I think he tried to be too clever and this cost him any credibility.

My alarm bells went off only a couple of pages into his technical brief, when he talks about the dielectric constant of water being 78.54, at one point quantifying this figure in ohms... but also stating any old water can be used!  From then on it was all downhill for me.

Water as a dielectric is far more credible with AC, as a true resonant cct can be configured with the correct frequency... but of course Meyer was talking about massive dc potentials. I ask you, if you charge, or attempt to step charge, two highly conductive plates across a conductive medium you don't need to be Einstein to realise that current will flow.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 17, 2009, 06:35:04 PM
My alarm bells went off only a couple of pages into his technical brief, when he talks about the dielectric constant of water being 78.54, at one point quantifying this figure in ohms... but also stating any old water can be used!  From then on it was all downhill for me.

That's funny, my electronics 101 book from college states the dielectric constant of water to be roughly 80 ohms @ 20 degrees Celsius. What exactly is your point of argument here?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 17, 2009, 07:12:00 PM
Quote
That's funny, my electronics 101 book from college states the dielectric constant of water to be roughly 80 ohms @ 20 degrees Celsius. What exactly is your point of argument here?

Does your Electronics 101 book also point out that that figure is for absolutely PURE, de-ionised water only obtainable under laboratory conditions?

Pure water is a very good insulator and so indeed, yes is a fantastic dielectric, 'pure' being the operative word here.

Dielectric constant or relative permittivity is a ratio - if your 101 book gives it as a measure of ohms I should take the book back and get a refund!

Has it not occured to you that if tap water was such a good insulator, then electrocution from a mains appliance dropping into your bath while bathing would not be an issue.

Incidentally, even if you seriously think that your bath water is a good insulator with a dielectric constant of 80 (@20 C), I really would advise against experimenting with mains voltage while bathing in it!

That basically is the point of my argument.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 17, 2009, 10:16:42 PM
Farrah Day,

I once read a previous thread on this site in which you were pretty much ridiculed and discredited but I abandoned reading any more of the previous thread due to the quality of the information being presented.  I’m pretty thick skinned so the name calling didn’t bother me as much because my motive for reading the thread was purely WFC technology advancement – enlightenment – related.  I am glad to see you are now here participating in this one.  It’s a much more civilized debate and discussion here in this thread so far. 

I don’t always agree with what you present but on the suspicion that Meyer left stuff out and inserted made up stuff…yes.  I would agree.  Partly to protect his invention from being copied and sold under the table by hacks but that would have eventually taken place anyways after he sold his very first unit or kit at Walmart to the public. 

Some keep insisting you are “Buz” who was banned under another screen name but I really don’t care which is the case.  Whether or not you are really someone else in disguise is irrelevant to me because I’m just here to learn, not be a politician.

Glad to see you,
Oscar.     
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 17, 2009, 10:35:25 PM
What exactly is your point of argument here?

I think the point is: Stan Meyer was full of more BS than truth, and he shouldn't have as much credibility as some folks here give him  ...      There are some parallels between LENR/CF and Stan Meyer's, but that is all he really has going for him IMHO.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 17, 2009, 10:58:30 PM
Thanks Oscar

I guess whatever we each individually think of Meyer is somewhat irrellevant, each to his or her own, eh - and it's certainly not going to bother Meyer now is it? It really all comes down to one thing: Whether or not the technology was genuine or simply a big con. However misunderstood Meyer's technology was and still is - by himself or anyone else - it either was genuine and it worked or it was a clever scam and it didn't. I guess the verdict's still open on this one until someone actually replicates it.

Though I don't rate Meyer as a very credible intellect, I like to think that there is indeed possibilities with the technology.  To my mind the Kanzius discovery from a couple of years ago opens up new avenues of thinking in respect of Meyer's WFC.

I do tend to speak my mind, and this coupled with the fact that I have a very low tolerance for idiots does not always make me 'flavour of the month', but I do show respect where it's due. It only takes one foul-mouthed, illiterate retard to spoil the party and lower the tone, so let's indeed hope things stay civil here on Peter's thread.

Farrah
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 18, 2009, 01:39:36 AM
Thank you Farrah,

We need skeptics around here anyway or it would be one sided. I'm short on time for now, I'll be back later...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 18, 2009, 07:15:25 AM
Good insights. I agree that Meyer was annoying as heck with his useless technical jargon. On the other hand, I can't claim that he was a fraud, I would never do that. I believe he achieved something, but never got around to explaining it properly. If he had just come forward and said 10 key points to make it work, we would all have figured it out and he would have saved the world. He really liked to talk about angels and god, but he was being very greedy by not disclosing anything. If he hadn't been so greedy with a "world saving" invention, then he may have actually saved the world sooner... 

Think you missed the point about aluminum. Since we are not trying to use current and perform electrolysis, the aluminum would be more suitable (not less suitable). You can't pass current because aluminum oxide adjusts automatically, the more voltage you feed it, the more oxides build up, and the more resistant it becomes. I know that you cannot use AC voltage for making hydrogen, because it reverses the process that you started with, but I did a test. I wanted to see how much current the aluminum can resist. Well guess what. The aluminum plates are inert, even with direct 120 volts mains power, that is how resistant to current flow they are. Another thing that leads me to believe that Meyer is telling the truth.

THE ALUMINUM PLATES GLOW IN THE DARK AND DON'T PASS ANY CURRENT WHATSOEVER, WHEN PLUGGED DIRECTLY INTO THE WALL OUTLET 120 VOLTS. THIS IS PHOTON EMISSION? PHOTON EMISSION REPRESENTS A HIGHER ENERGY STATE. RIGHT?

If you use two plates, and you use a base, like baking soda, or Borax, then there is no current, and you can experiment with high voltage water cell charging. If you notice, not ONE person anywhere has been able to step charge stainless steel to thousands of volts... Well with aluminum, you could do it. It's feasible. We need an easier method to simply "observe" the stuff that Meyer claimed. I have given up on stainless, because I don't believe it. I just don't believe that Meyer used tap water and regular stainless steel to build thousands of volts. It doesn't make sense. We are missing something.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 18, 2009, 08:15:04 AM
120V mains through aluminum plates! Yikes! The material of the electrodes has nothing to do with raising or holding the voltage. A water fuel cell alone does not have much for capacitance, but, the circuit as a whole can have a distributed capacitance with the ability to be step charged much like any normal capacitor being step charged with pulsed DC. Why is everyone focused on electrodes and not circuits? Show me yours and I'll show you mine!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Gauss on July 18, 2009, 10:15:26 AM
Anyone imagined the possibility the coating is there to increase vibrations via the crystalline layer vibrating each time you send a pulse? In addition you will have many different spacings with coating allowing for more resonance points.

But then again, it seems noone pays attention to Ravi´s soft foam spacers and their very low Q value, if we could use ceramics or crystals we might take down burst frequency, saving lots of energy. Then the acoustic tuning of the pipes and the pipe thickness importance in getting a good tone resonance. Remember Stan had a 0.04 and 0.035 inches gap. That in my opinion will give strong resonance around a few kHz.

Puharich came first, Stan came after him... What did Puharich do????!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 18, 2009, 11:08:00 AM
Hi SM

Quote
Think you missed the point about aluminum. Since we are not trying to use current and perform electrolysis, the aluminum would be more suitable (not less suitable).

No, I didn't miss the point, it's just that most people are experimenting with some form of standard electrolysis, electrolytes etc, to which SS is simply very inert. Once someone achieves a current-less WFC then other metals can be considered.

I don't think the problem is the fact that no one has been able to step charge ss plates, but rather that the water in between conducts, so won't allow any plates to step charge.

You've got me puzzled about aluminium. I have an aluminium cell that conducts just fine from only a few volts and as aluminium is very reactive in water, it obviously has it's protective oxide layer in place... why I wonder do we seem to both have such differing opinions on the properties of this oxide layer?

Quote
The aluminum plates are inert, even with direct 120 volts mains power, that is how resistant to current flow they are. Another thing that leads me to believe that Meyer is telling the truth.

SM, you're still talking about AC here. You will find that your ali plates impede current flow because of the air gap, not the oxide coating. Do the same test with ss plates and you will see the same thing. Air is a much better insulator than tap water, so is a much better dielectric. Two ali plates a set distance apart in air is a capacitor, put those plates in water and you no longer have a capacitor, but a non-linear resistor and current will pass nicely.  If you put those ali plates at mains voltage in water, you would get a large bang, a big flash and trip the house fuse ccts as excessive current would immediately flow, effectively shorting out the house electrics - the oxide layer would do nothing to prevent this.  Please don't try that! 

However, even if your oxide layer was a good a dielectric in water as you suggest it is, the underlying problem is that which I referred in previous posts. And that is, that you would effectively be charging across the dielectric, NOT the water. The water would be at the same potential as one of the electrodes, but have no voltage drop across it per se... do you see what I'm saying?  I have experimented with this using one ss electrode and one aluminium one, so know this to be the case.

I personally don't think that the protective oxides on the plates play a very important part other than preventing the metals in the plates themselves from reacting... that said they will no doubt exhibit some capacitance effect. Nor do I think it has anything to do with physical vibrations of the electrodes themselves - at this point I do not believe that cavitation is playing a part in the process. But then again this is only my opinion based on what I have gleaned over the years.

Water surely has to become the dielectric, which means that ultimately the cell itself can be quite straight forward in design. The key to achieving results is in the electronics that precede the cell, which is where I'm currently focussing all my attention.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 18, 2009, 06:39:12 PM
While Meyer was purposely vague on many aspects of his system, I believe there were some things he was straight forward with.  I believe he was telling the truth about using SS electrodes.  I believe he was also being straight forward about using ordinary tap water in his cell.  He was obviously using DC voltage as is evident in his patent’s electrical schematic which shows a diode after the secondary transformer winding. 

What I would like to know is what size is his outer plastic tube and what type of plastic is it, what schedule of plastic, and how tall is this outer tube.  I can not find his plans anywhere on the web.  After all, I am trying to replicate Meyer’s cell, not Ravi’s, Peter’s or David Lawtons.

Thanks,
Oscar. 
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 18, 2009, 07:22:22 PM
Oscar, if you haven't already seen the video, go here:

http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/

Click on the top left introductory video to see an actual Meyer unit in operation and to determine the approximate specs.

Regards
Farrah
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 18, 2009, 07:24:32 PM
While Meyer was purposely vague on many aspects of his system, I believe there were some things he was straight forward with. 
How do you know S Meyer was 'purposely vague' in his patents...   
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 18, 2009, 07:46:20 PM
How do you know S Meyer was 'purposely vague' in his patents...

First off, just look at his patent’s schematic drawing.  He has a component drawn in his electrical schematic and he simply labels the component “Amp consuming device”.  Give me a break.  Even a resister is considered an amp consuming device!!!!  He doesn’t state which device that consumes amps that he actually used!! 

Oscar.     
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 18, 2009, 08:28:24 PM
Supermuble, nice to see you are still around. Sorry I forgot to say hello. When I get some more time we will have to chat some more. I have been so busy lately after I moved into my new place.

Oscar, the size of the clear container is roughly 4 to 4.5 inches ID. The thickness should be close to a half inch so you have room to drill pilot holes to attach the end caps. The end caps will have to be custom made with a lathe. The stainless steel tubes should be from 16 to 18 inches long. Recently I tested the "tuning" of the tubes which I found to be a myth. The slots cut out of the outer tubes must be for something other than tuning the tubes. All of my research so far has ruled out ultrasonic cavitation also.

I am currently researching how to build Tesla coils. After reading a few books on the subject I found the same characteristics described as Stan had. The secondary of a true Tesla coil will reach voltages beyond normal transformers, but, with absolutely no current flowing. Tesla called it very high potentials with no current. Could it be that Stan utilized Tesla's technology in his devices? The secondary of a Tesla coil is also step charged due to the high capacitance of the coil. Scalar waves may have a play in it also.

That's all the time I have for now...

HairBear
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 18, 2009, 08:34:47 PM
A drawing of the cell...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 18, 2009, 09:41:45 PM
First off, just look at his patent’s schematic drawing.  He has a component drawn in his electrical schematic and he simply labels the component “Amp consuming device”.  Give me a break.  Even a resister is considered an amp consuming device!!!!  He doesn’t state which device that consumes amps that he actually used!! 

Oscar.     
Vague is probably an understatement..     His patents are so "vague"  that nobody can create a working replication, and I'd bet they're too vague to protect his claimed inventions as well..
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 19, 2009, 12:58:03 AM
copied from this page... http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061205/110247.shtml

It's no secret that we have serious concerns about the patent system, and how it's abused -- often by patent attorneys -- well beyond what the system was intended to be used for. The system is supposed to put in place incentives for innovation, but it actually puts in place incentives for claiming an invention... and then suing anyone who innovates. Rick Klau points to a writeup by Erik Heels where he complains about how patent lawyers are being trained to write patents these days. Basically, they're told to write patents that are as broad as is humanly possible

How many patents have you read and tried to build from?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 19, 2009, 01:55:49 AM
copied from this page... http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061205/110247.shtml

It's no secret that we have serious concerns about the patent system, and how it's abused -- often by patent attorneys -- well beyond what the system was intended to be used for. The system is supposed to put in place incentives for innovation, but it actually puts in place incentives for claiming an invention... and then suing anyone who innovates. Rick Klau points to a writeup by Erik Heels where he complains about how patent lawyers are being trained to write patents these days. Basically, they're told to write patents that are as broad as is humanly possible

How many patents have you read and tried to build from?

HeairBear, I hear what you are saying about the patent system and you left out one other little detail in your point that I would also like to mention.  I realize that so many inventors are gung ho over getting patent protection while overlooking the entity that awards and records the actual patents.  When you apply for a patent, the wait is roughly around one year before they are even reviewed from what I’m told.  Because you are dealing with the government, other government agencies are at liberty to secretly examine your invention for things such as military viability in which case they may cause your patent to be considered a matter of national security – like they did with anti-gravity inventions - and become classified information so enemy countries can not use your new technology against the U.S. as a military weapon.  This classification also gets abused too.  Mostly because if Americans dropped oil and started using water as a fuel, it’s not just the “big oil” lobbyist that would go completely bankrupt.  Our government would lose billions of dollars in tax revenues it counts on to balance its budget and pay for new road construction and maintenance.  They also realize if they try to shift the current oil taxes onto water, the people will revolt as water is a necessity of life and if we pay $3 a gallon for water, many poor people will die of thirst.

What makes Meyer technology even more threatening to “big oil” and our federal government is Stanley claimed his cell could run on salt water or rain water.  How would you tax that?  You would have to guard the beaches and lakes so nobody filled up a container to use free water to make fuel and possible drinking water – as Meyer claimed the byproduct was fresh water – so enforcement of the water tax would be harder to enforce than the current oil/gasoline taxes.

Open source efforts are the only way to go in this particular case because I highly doubt the U.S. government will allow it – Meyer WFC technology - to become available to the general public for the previous reasons I’ve stated.  Once the genie is out of the bottle through open sourced efforts, good luck getting the genie back into the bottle and trying to erase the technology completely.  Our government found out the hard way this exact lesson with nuclear energy.  Now that it’s out, even the Koreans have it and now maybe the Iranians.   

Meyer’s patent for his fuel cell expired in 2007 anyways and is now considered public domain, if I am correct.  I am only using the Meyer patent for clues and take nothing in there for gospel except SS electrodes, tap water and DC voltage.  The rest is experimental.  I just want to build the demo model in his video.  The circuit I will play with on my own.  I do believe you are on to the right idea as far as the Tesla coil because callapsing fields can be attributed to energy anomalies too.

Thank you very much for the posting of the test cell.  I got it!!! The only thing is, it lacks dimensions and readable text.  Is there a copy that might have readable text? 

Thanks again HeairBear,
Oscar.



 
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 19, 2009, 02:13:32 AM
The pic came from the "independent study" document. The pdf is 80MB, so, I can't upload it here. I'm sure you can find it somewhere on the net.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 19, 2009, 04:04:00 AM
This is the Meyer schematic with the "Amp consuming device" component for anyone who wants it...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 19, 2009, 04:10:48 AM
That diagram is a sort of mock up of the electron extraction circuit. Notice the "gas" resonant cavity, not a water cavity. The EEC is pretty much the same thing as the WFC only the liberated gases are run through the cell much like an ozone generator. The chokes will prevent sparking like a ballast.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 19, 2009, 04:19:01 AM
Is the “ozone generator” used in his injection system to slow down the burn rate – velocity – of the hydrogen in order to retrofit to gasoline engine standards?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 19, 2009, 04:25:36 AM
No, Stan used recirculated exhaust for the retardation of the flame speed. We use the same thing in our cars today called an EGR or exhaust gas recirculator, although, the EGR does some things a little different than retard combustion rates.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 20, 2009, 02:12:22 AM
I apologize for my jumbled words. What i mean to say is that aluminum with baking soda and water forms aluminum oxide that builds stronger with a slow increase in voltage, and as the oxide builds, the current is restricted. If you put two pure aluminum plates in water, with baking soda/water and no other chemicals, then you can hook up ANY AMOUNT OF VOLTAGE OR CURRENT (AC/DC) it won't flow current.

Sorry for sounding like an idiot! ;D I know we don't want AC current. However the aluminum plates act as a diode, and they will effectively block current, but only in one direction. If you use one aluminum plate and one stainless steel plate, you can form a capacitor with pulsed DC, however you can't form a capacitor with two stainless plates, at least not in the conventional sense, since water is not really an insulator like aluminum oxide is.

It seems to me like we should start with one aluminum plate, and one stainless steel plate, then we have a current restrictive cell which is a REAL capacitor. It uses water as the electrode. No current can flow, but you are still imparting an electrical potential ripping force on the water molecule.

I don't agree that water is ever going to act as a dielectric. It can't. Meyer said you could use salt water. That immediately cancels the option of using the water as an insulating medium. Right?

I totally agree that it is possible that the cell design is totally useless... Except for one other problem. Meyer said that before the invention of "304 Stainless Steel" (not 316, etc), you could NOT do what he did... He must have discovered a special electrical property of 304 stainless oxide.

OK, so I have my own radiant battery charger. It uses 10,000 hz 150 volt static electricity spikes. These spikes are reduced to 6.5 volts when I hook it up to my water fuel cell. From what I've seen, no person has ever charged their cell up beyond this level of voltage. What do I need to do differently? I'm already using pure radiant energy to charge the cell...... By default, I'm using something that is devoid of current....  Can anyone share any real "proof" that the electronics are the key? I would like to learn how.









Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 20, 2009, 12:50:18 PM
SM

Quote
It seems to me like we should start with one aluminum plate, and one stainless steel plate, then we have a current restrictive cell which is a REAL capacitor. It uses water as the electrode. No current can flow, but you are still imparting an electrical potential ripping force on the water molecule.

I don't agree that water is ever going to act as a dielectric. It can't. Meyer said you could use salt water. That immediately cancels the option of using the water as an insulating medium. Right?


I guess we might have to remain somewhat at odds with this as in my experience the aluminuim oxide, like the chromium oxide on ss has no appreciable current blocking properties whatsoever.

I do seem to be repeating myself somewhat here, but aluminium already has an oxide layer, that is what stops it oxidising in air or water.

And again, you don't seem to be appreciating the fact that even if the aluminium oxide was enhanced to be very good insulator, the voltage drop would be across this oxide layer, NOT the water - where we would want it to be.  Don't you see, the water would have NO electrical potential across it whatsoever as it would effectively simply be a liquid electrode, so would not in anyway be stressed.  But I've said all this before in previous posts.

You really do need to give this some thought, and perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from.

Are you comparing a WFC to wet electrolytic capacitors that use the oxide layer as the dielectric? Because if you are it's not the same thing - that is, it's not what we are trying to achieve.  In wet electrolytic capacitors the dielectric IS the oxide layer and the electrolyte acts as one of the electrodes. In this case the electrolyte is made to be a good conductor, while chemicals in it maintain the dielectric oxide layer on the aluminuim. Unlike other capacitors they are somewhat self healing and can reform the dielectric if over-voltage causes it to break down. Again however, the voltage is across the oxide layer, NOT the electrolyte.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 20, 2009, 05:30:58 PM
I am really just discussing possibilities, that's all. Hope that's ok.

Aluminum blocks current, only when used with distilled water and baking soda. It doesn't block current in chlorinated tap water, at least in my experience. Aluminum in a solution of either borax laundry softener, or baking soda, forms a perfect capacitor or a diode since the aluminum oxide builds within minutes and blocks current. This only works with baking soda, or borax. I've experimented with everything else and it doesn't work at all.

I don't know if aluminum has any value at all. I just thought we should consider it.

It makes sense that if you use water as an electrode, then you directly imparting an electrical stress on it. But I really have no idea what I am talking about. To me, it makes sense to use water as the electrode. I will try to study more to see why that won't work.  ;)

One other thing I should mention. Meyer's cell supposedly emitted photons (it had an orange glow) in the water. In my tests, using straight DC and one of my aluminum capacitors with baking soda in the water, the aluminum plates begin to glow when they approach 100 volts potential. The higher your charge the plates, the brighter the glow becomes. You can see small blue sparks coming from the aluminum, like little sparkles. What the heck is this? I find it very interesting. Though, it may not have any useful value.

Ok, so lets move on to discussing electronics.


Found this online:

"An incorrect electrolyte formula within a faulty capacitor causes the production of hydrogen gas, leading to bulging or deformation of the capacitor's case, and eventual venting of the electrolyte. In rare cases, faulty capacitors have even been reported to pop or explode forcefully. Although modern manufacturing techniques normally ensure they vent safely rather than explode, manufacturers have been known to omit the key safety features that allow this."


I would have to say that water with baking soda is an INCORRECT electrolyte... LOL


"Another compromise must, however, be made in relation to the voltage breakdown of electrolytic capacitors.

It has been observed that this sparking voltage V is determined by the specific resistivity r, of the electrolyte, and for a specific thickness of oxide film may be expressed as follows:

V = a log r + b

Where a and b are constants.

The increase of V with r may be explained as follows: the greater the concentration of ions in the electrolyte, the greater will be the number of electrons emitted from the electrolyte and hence the greater the number of electrons migrating to the dielectric, and the more readily will breakdown occur.


In theory at least, electrolytic capacitors can be designed to have a very high breakdown voltage by simply making the specific resistivity r, of the electrolyte, sufficiently great. This again results in a large increase in the equivalent series resistance R; so again a compromise must be made. "

http://www.faradnet.com/deeley/chapt_02.htm

Water has a high resistance, thus VERY high breakdown voltage.


__________________________________________________________________________________


More information I found. It sounds like this is what we want:

"Avalanche breakdown is a phenomenon that can occur in both insulating and semiconducting materials. It is a form of electric current multiplication that can allow very large currents to flow within materials which are otherwise good insulators.
Explanation

Avalanche breakdown can occur within insulating or semiconducting solids, liquids, or gases when the electric field in the material is great enough to accelerate free electrons to the point that, when they strike atoms in the material, they can knock other electrons free: the number of free electrons is thus increased rapidly as newly generated particles become part of the process. This phenomenon is usefully employed in special purpose semiconductor devices such as the avalanche diode, the avalanche photodiode and the avalanche transistor, as well as in some gas filled tubes.

Once begun, avalanches are often intensified by the creation of photoelectrons as a result of ultraviolet radiation emitted by the excited medium's atoms in the aft-tip region.

When one or more electron avalanches occur between two electrodes of sufficient size, complete avalanche breakdown can occur, culminating in an electrical spark that bridges the gap."


http://www.answers.com/topic/avalanche-breakdown
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 21, 2009, 07:57:34 AM
I have found sources for information who claim to have met with Meyer in person and watched one of his many demonstrations of the demo cell in action.  This source says he used 36VDC as an input voltage to the cell’s electronic circuit.  They claim the cell had only a milliamp current draw.  Supposedly Meyer told them he used 410 stainless steel tubes for electrodes (or exciters). 

Another source says he used only 304 SS in his cells.  If anyone has access to more exact or precise details of his demo cell, I would really be in your debt. 

Also, I saw something in his video demo which looked sort of like a clip of some sort at the top of the center electrode or SS tube.  I could not find this component anywhere in his patents or even the drawings posted on here.  What in the world is clipped to the inside of the center tube number 10?  Why is it NOT mentioned at all in his patents?  Not even vaguely.

Please help me with these mysteries as I would like to figure this demo cell completely out and give it away just for free.  It is in no way patentable now.  They wouldn’t grant anyone a patent now being that it’s all prior art and public domain. 

Thanks EVERYONE in advance for the much needed help as I don’t have these critical answers yet many of you have been willing to share what you know or at least best guess is true.

Oscar.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 21, 2009, 11:19:05 AM
Quote
Please help me with these mysteries as I would like to figure this demo cell completely out and give it away just for free.

Oscar, welcome to the mysterious would of Stanley Meyer water fuel technology.

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about which ss Meyer used or getting your WFC to exactly the same specs as his, as these kind of discrepancies are unlikely to be important and more to do with available material and construction techniques.

The electronics side is where people really need to be focussing their attention - this is what would turn a standard electrolyser into a Meyer-type unit.  As I said to Peter, building the WFC itself is the easy part.

The electrochemistry has always fascinated me, and if you can crack this, you will know exactly what is happening and how to enhance the effect.  The problem is, the electrochemistry simply does not add up... at least if you are looking at it from Meyer's perspective.

Meyer talks of electrons being pulled off the water molecule... I say bullshit, there are no free floating electrons in a liqiud!

Meyer talks of an amp consumong device... I say bullshit - invented jargon to describe something as simple as a resistor!

Too many people still take Meyer at his word and simply assume what he says is how it is, that he knew what he was talking about... again, I say bullshit - he didn't have a clue!

To really get to the bottom of this, people need to forget Meyers depictions and descriptions and start thinking for themselves about what it is they are actually trying to achieve... and why!

Everyone by now should know that if you totally insulate one electrode, you can pulse very high voltages across a wfc without any gas being evolved - voltage alone will not do the job.

Meyer's electrodes were both in contact with the water, presumably because they had to be. The only reason they would need to be in contact with the water would be to allow charge exchanges - why people can't see this I find a mystery in itself.

This then leads to a further conclusion. Forget all the electrons being pulled off nonsense... the water is being ionised into H+ and OH- just like any other electrolyser.

Now, going right back to basics, why do standard electrolysers require a high current flow to produce a good amount of gas?  Well if you consider that ions in a non-reacting electrolyte such as, say Na2SO4, are the current carriers, ask yourself, what exactly are these ions doing? Afterall they don't react at the electrodes.

Consider this: All these electrolyte ions do is barge their way through the water to the electrodes. But in doing so they bump and bang into water molecules creating fluctuating electric fileds which causes the water molecule itself to ionise.

Now we have ionised water, and these ions react at the electrodes to evolve our gases.

Two things now should be apparent.

1) At any given time there are likely many OH- and H+ ions that are too far from the electrodes to react and simply reform as H2O.

2) All the electrolyte ions are doing is adding energy to the water molecule to cause it to ionise in the first place - they do no other work.

Now to my way of thinking, if we do away with the electrolyte altogether and instead of using ion current to induce water to ionise, we use high voltage pulses, we will surely also be able to induce water to ionise.

The thing is, we still need to get our OH- and H+ to exchange charges somewhere if we want to evolve hydrogen and oxygen.  Hence voltage may well have induced ionisation, but more needs to now be done to make use of the resulting ions.

I believe that Meyers cell would have been pulling as much current as any standard electrolyser, and that Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis would still fully apply. 

All the talk of this is a different technology and Faraday's Laws no longer apply, is in my eyes, once again... total bullshit.

The current draw from the input may well be low, but the current flow around the WFC/inductor circuit would no doubt be quite high - but this was never measured or stated.

So to summarise, we have low current, high voltage pulses across the WFC. The HV pulses create electric fields that readily induces the water to ionise without drawing the heavy, non-productive ion current of electrolyte ions. And as long as we maintain some potential across on the electrodes, any ions in the vicinity will exchange charges and gases will be evolved.

In theory then de-ionised water should also be more efficient.

This is a far more simple and logical way of looking at the possible processes involved than all of Meyer's gobbledegook and pseudoscience.

Of course I may be wrong, but in reality my approach is far more logical and hence is a far better place to start than trying in vain to understand Meyer patents.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 21, 2009, 04:28:34 PM
Farrah Day good point about the water contacting the electrodes.

Something of interest... When you use radiant energy to charge a lead acid battery, you can produce "cold boiling" hydrogen gas with very little current using pure static electricity. Bearden and Bedini claim that a lead acid battery will "charge its self" with little to no electrical current, so long as you pulse very high voltage to the battery. The battery then begins to boil, producing hydrogen gas in the same way that normal current would produce hydrogen gas. No need to change the inside of the battery, the high voltage pulses are what create the effect. The catch is, you have to "condition" the battery over a period of 5 or more charge cycles, and then the battery starts producing the effect very easily, charging up very quickly and violating conventional wisdom.

Perhaps we should start with a Radiant battery charger which is by default, devoid of current, and using high voltage pulses. It would be an easy starting place. Here's a link.

http://www.r-charge.com/faq.html


Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 22, 2009, 06:28:49 AM
Both Farrah Day and supermuble make some very good points.  My own opinion of the electronics used on his cell is that very high voltage was being used in combination with a varying frequency of this high voltage.  At a specific frequency the water molecule begins to fall apart resulting in high gas production.  I believe the low current is in part due to the high voltage because whenever you raise voltage levels, amperage drops at the same time like in a motor for example.  You will always notice a drop in the amperage draw on a motor’s nameplate when wiring the said motor’s windings for the high voltage diagram which comes with the motor.  But high voltage alone does not add up as there would be constant temperature rise – increasing temperature in the water over extended periods of time - which would happen with any voltage used including low voltage.  So I believe there is a combination of the two being used together sort of similar to the motor soft start technology which amazingly extends motor life – avoiding high amperage conditions in the motor startup window - in large horsepower motors.  Another similar technology is that of varidrives which are used to change an AC or DC motor’s speed without producing overcurrent conditions by modifying the voltage frequency.

These are some of things I will be trying anyways on my water cell.  I could be WAY WAY off but in the end I will at least know what doesn’t work and tweak the electronics from there.

Just going for it medieval style,
Oscar. 
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 22, 2009, 11:21:22 AM
Oscar, a couple of things.

Quote
But high voltage alone does not add up as there would be constant temperature rise

Any amount of high voltage won't produce heat. Heat is a result of current flow through a resistive medium, so as long as little or no current flows, little or no heat will be produced.

Quote
At a specific frequency the water molecule begins to fall apart resulting in high gas production

Many people say this, but do you really think that the water molecule can or will just conveniently 'fall' apart into H and O?  Again if this was the case, the electrodes would not need to actually be in the water.

I do think that it is very likely that high voltage pulses induce the water molecule to more readily ionise, but that this is only half the story.

The only reason the electrodes would need to be in the water is to provide somewhere for ion charge exchange.

Remember, ionisation is an endothermic process. To ionise the water molecule has to absorb energy. So, if the water molecule was being induced to ionise from voltage instead of current the cell would remain cooler.  Conversely, although the current induced ionisation would still be an endothermic reaction, the passage of this current itself through the resistance of the liquid medium is many more times exothermic.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 23, 2009, 05:32:45 AM
Oscar, a couple of things.

Any amount of high voltage won't produce heat. Heat is a result of current flow through a resistive medium, so as long as little or no current flows, little or no heat will be produced.

Many people say this, but do you really think that the water molecule can or will just conveniently 'fall' apart into H and O?  Again if this was the case, the electrodes would not need to actually be in the water.

I do think that it is very likely that high voltage pulses induce the water molecule to more readily ionise, but that this is only half the story.

The only reason the electrodes would need to be in the water is to provide somewhere for ion charge exchange.

Remember, ionisation is an endothermic process. To ionise the water molecule has to absorb energy. So, if the water molecule was being induced to ionise from voltage instead of current the cell would remain cooler.  Conversely, although the current induced ionisation would still be an endothermic reaction, the passage of this current itself through the resistance of the liquid medium is many more times exothermic.

Farrah Day,

We both agree on the fact that current flow through a resistive medium causes heat.  So then we must reason that we do NOT desire current flow because we want to avoid generating heat and consuming excessive amounts of energy in the process which is what occurs in normal Faraday electrolysis.  Even with high voltage, you will still have current flow in tap water because it has conductive properties – such as minerals – which will ALWAYS lead to current flow as long as the stainless electrodes come in contact with the water.  You end up with a “dead short” condition which means that Meyer had current limiting capabilities in his circuitry.  He even states in some of his own literature that his circuitry does in fact detect dead short conditions and interrupts the voltage pulse train for several cycles in order to “allow the water to recover” he says.  Now this does make sense.

"Many people say this, (that frequency is the key) but do you really think that the water molecule can or will just conveniently 'fall' apart into H and O?  Again if this was the case, the electrodes would not need to actually be in the water."

Frequency has to be the alternate means of causing the separation of the hydrogen from the water molecule or we’re back to typical Faraday electrolysis and we already know how to do this.  To say that the electrodes don’t need to be actually in the water in order for varying voltage frequency to work is like saying wires do not need to be hooked up to a motor in order for a varidrive to alter its speed when it changes voltage frequency.  If we were talking about radio frequency, you would be correct but voltage frequency and radio frequency are two separate things.  What we are really talking about here is hertz or cycles per second and without altering this frequency, electricity here in the U.S. is normally 60 hertz (as I'm sure you are aware).  In Europe the frequency in their electricity is 50 hertz (which you already know).  Now if I change the frequency to say 10 hertz, this will affect the operation of all the electrical devices I hook up to this electricity and they will most likely not function properly if they operate at all.  Even when I change the frequency, I still must still have the load connected in order to attempt to operate an electrical device.  The water is our particular load.

Oscar. 

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 23, 2009, 06:01:02 AM
You brought up a good point just now. A capacitor that fails goes into a "dead short" and drains all the current in one burst across the plates, through the electrolyte. If using a water capacitor, then it stands to reason that Stan charged it up, then waited for a catastrophic failure to occur (capacitor failure) and when the short circuit was detected, the process was shut down.. This cycle repeats, though the capacitor failure must be quelled because the water restricts amps, so the plates don't arc too bad, otherwise they would burn. This doesn't happen since we are using plain tap water with high resistance, hence the orange glow and the appearance of sparks under the water is really a capacitor failure, recurring in quick cycles.


Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 23, 2009, 06:49:21 AM
You brought up a good point just now. A capacitor that fails goes into a "dead short" and drains all the current in one burst across the plates, through the electrolyte. If using a water capacitor, then it stands to reason that Stan charged it up, then waited for a catastrophic failure to occur (capacitor failure) and when the short circuit was detected, the process was shut down.. This cycle repeats, though the capacitor failure must be quelled because the water restricts amps, so the plates don't arc too bad, otherwise they would burn. This doesn't happen since we are using plain tap water with high resistance, hence the orange glow and the appearance of sparks under the water is really a capacitor failure, recurring in quick cycles.

Bingo!!!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 23, 2009, 12:30:31 PM
Quote
Farrah Day,

We both agree on the fact that current flow through a resistive medium causes heat

Do we? Not according to your earlier statement:

Quote
But high voltage alone does not add up as there would be constant temperature rise – increasing temperature in the water over extended periods of time

You also said this:

Quote
To say that the electrodes don’t need to be actually in the water in order for varying voltage frequency to work is like saying wires do not need to be hooked up to a motor in order for a varidrive to alter its speed when it changes voltage frequency.

You're completely wrong with this statement, this is the very principle by which a true capacitor operates. Either you are not properly reading what I'm saying or you're not understanding what I'm saying, but it is very basic science and electronics. When I said the electrodes would not need to be actually in the water if voltage alone was able to produce gas, I was of course inferring that they would not actually need to be in contact with the water, ie they could be insulated from it. For example, the outer electrode could simply be aluminium foil wrapped around the cell container, so not in contact with the water. Whilst the other electrode could be sitting within the water, with or without insulation - it wouldn't matter.

You guys seem to be struggling with a few basic facts here... and I'm really at a loss as to why.

Firstly, as we've discussed numerous times, tap water is not high resistance - it readily conducts. I'm not sure from where you are getting the misconception that it is some phenomenal dielectric.

In fact given it will conduct from around just 2 volts, how do you expect a high voltage to build up on the ss electrodes.  You talk about the water as a dielectric breaking down, well it's not a dielectric at all is it if it effectively breaks down with around just 2 volts!! How can you possibly conceive of charging the electrodes up to apparently thousands of volts when just applying a mere 2 volts will cause the water to conduct!  Think about it - please consider ohms law for a moment.

It's like trying to fill a bucket up from a tap, when the bucket has a great big hole in it, as fast as the water goes in, it comes out of the hole - you can never fill the bucket up.

Capacitors will block dc, our tap water cell won't!  Surely you can see this?

I don't expect everyone to take everything I say as a given, but most of what I'm saying is quite easy to verify.  However, for some reason or another you seem to simply choose to ignore it altogether.

If you guys really think that tap water is such a good insulator, why do you think that bathrooms have pull cord light and shower switches rather than wall plate switches?  Why are shavers plugged into dedicated shaver sockets in a bathroom... why isn't there a standard 3-pin mains socket in there?

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 23, 2009, 05:54:15 PM
When I said the electrodes would not need to be actually in the water if voltage alone was able to produce gas, I was of course inferring that they would not actually need to be in contact with the water, ie they could be insulated from it. For example, the outer electrode could simply be aluminium foil wrapped around the cell container, so not in contact with the water. Whilst the other electrode could be sitting within the water, with or without insulation - it wouldn't matter.
is this proven?

stiffler has some very creative ways to evolve gas that aren't the norm.
single wire electrolysis.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuMMp3KK9gI&feature=channel
one electrode electrolysis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_yOSDVJ1vY&feature=channel_page
heavy oxygen, no can't be  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktHaAIKPOCo&feature=channel
not much gas evolution but principle is proven.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 23, 2009, 06:10:52 PM
heavy oxygen, no can't be  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktHaAIKPOCo&feature=channel
not much gas evolution but principle is proven.

He says that oxygen isn't forming, but that isn't accurate (and in reality impossible)......   Oxygen is forming but instead of bubbling up, it is most likely forming an oxide layer on the electrode, then falling off....        Stifler seems quick to jump to conclusions at times.    Cool experiment though.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 23, 2009, 06:14:09 PM
He says that oxygen isn't forming, but that isn't accurate (and in reality impossible)......   Oxygen is forming but instead of bubbling up, it is forming an oxide layer on the electrode....        Stifler seems quick to jump to conclusions.
is that a fact? i missed where he said that, could you give the time in the vid where he says that? (in reality you are not an authority on what is possible or not)
do you have a hypothesis and experiment(s) to verify this? you failed to noticed the stuff pouring off the electrode and settling in the water? how is that an oxide layer? it is distilled water, deionized.
you seem quick to jump to conclusions. i'm wondering what you think then of the single electrode electrolysis? obviously contradictory as stiffler noted.

edit: i see you have edited your post to now to include, 'then falling off....'  ::)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 23, 2009, 09:21:19 PM
Quote
When I said the electrodes would not need to be actually in the water if voltage alone was able to produce gas, I was of course inferring that they would not actually need to be in contact with the water, ie they could be insulated from it. For example, the outer electrode could simply be aluminium foil wrapped around the cell container, so not in contact with the water. Whilst the other electrode could be sitting within the water, with or without insulation - it wouldn't matter.

is this proven?

Is what proven?  I was not trying to prove anything, rather just making a logical statement in the case of folks that assume voltage alone will dissociate water.

Anyway nice one with the video links Wilby - I've not seen those ones before. Got to say I find these videos and indeed Stifflers SECs quite fascinating. But I can tell you, as simple as it is the SEC circuit is a real sod to replicate.

I love the SEC stuff though, because it really does seem a strange but fully demonstratable science, and certainly opens a few doors to new ways of thinking.

Granted, there looks to be some strange thinks happening and though Stiffler does not mention it, I think Newbie has a good point.  If that electrode is copper then it could well be oxidising, so he would not get oxygen evolved. And, given that copper oxide is a solid so of far greater density than a gas, even a tiny build up would compare to the hydrogen being evolved.

However, with hydrogen being given off at the ss cathode, the reaction would balance and Faradays laws of electrolysis would apply.  If this experiment ran for longer, it might be more telling.

If anything I think it would be foolish not to initially assume the copper to be oxidising as we would then appear to have an unbalanced equation. However, should this prove not to be the case then we would have something really intriguing.

Although he calls it single wire and wireless electrolysis, there always does appear to be two wires actually in the water itself. I wonder why there is no mention of this experiment with regular tap water...  as it would be a very logical step.

There might well be a very logical reason why the hydrogen is not immediately leaving the water. All electrolysers do this, they just get cloudier a lot faster. The resulting gas always mixes with the water and never goes straight up and out. It's just like the head settling on a pint of Guiness.

In Stiffler's case, the gas is being evolved so slowly that large bubbles do not form, and the tinier the bubbles the more they are affected by the movement of the water molecules themselves and water currents. I personally do not think this in itself is anything remarkable.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 23, 2009, 10:51:54 PM
Is what proven?  I was not trying to prove anything, rather just making a logical statement in the case of folks that assume voltage alone will dissociate water.

Anyway nice one with the video links Wilby - I've not seen those ones before. Got to say I find these videos and indeed Stifflers SECs quite fascinating. But I can tell you, as simple as it is the SEC circuit is a real sod to replicate.

I love the SEC stuff though, because it really does seem a strange but fully demonstratable science, and certainly opens a few doors to new ways of thinking.

Granted, there looks to be some strange thinks happening and though Stiffler does not mention it, I think Newbie has a good point.  If that electrode is copper then it could well be oxidising, so he would not get oxygen evolved. And, given that copper oxide is a solid so of far greater density than a gas, even a tiny build up would compare to the hydrogen being evolved.

However, hydrogen would still be being given off at the ss cathode, the reaction would balance and Faradays laws of electrolysis would apply.  If this experiment ran for longer, it might be more telling.

If anything I think it would be foolish not to initially assume the copper to be oxidising as we would then appear to have an unbalanced equation. However, should this prove not to be the case then we would have something really intriguing.

Although he calls it single wire and wireless electrolysis, there always does appear to be two wires actually in the water itself. I wonder why there is no mention of this experiment with regular tap water...  as it would be a very logical step.

There might well be a very logical reason why the hydrogen is not immediately leaving the water. All electrolysers do this, they just get cloudier a lot faster. The resulting gas always mixes with the water and never goes straight up and out. It's just like the head settling on a pint of Guiness.

In Stiffler's case, the gas is being evolved so slowly that large bubbles do not form, and the tinier the bubbles the more they are affected by the movement of the water molecules themselves and water currents. I personally do not think this in itself is anything remarkable.
i never said you were, i was just asking for clarification as to whether or not your statement was an assumption or conjecture or something you had seen demonstrated.

thanks. fascinating indeed. actually it is pretty easy to replicate, after all it is only 15 components or so. of course having an original one of stiffler's SEC 15-3's to reference from helps a lot.

i agree, except with that 'demonstratable' word you used.

the electrode is not copper.

again, not a copper electrode. bugger huh?

speaking from over a year of experience with the SEC 15-3 i think it would be foolish to assume anything.

yes in one or more of those videos there is actually 2 wires in the water, but only one wire supply. one of those clips has only one electrode in the water, and it is evolving hydrogen. here is the 'easy button' for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_yOSDVJ1vY&feature=channel listen at around 2:50.
why would tap water be the logical next step?

the hydrogen is immediately leaving the water, it is the ?oxygen? that is not. furthermore, the guiness analogy doesn't hold. anyone who has built a cell will tell you the evolved gases fill the top of the container and then start 'saturating' down. this does nothing of the sort. watch again, or better yet get a working SEC together and try it yourself.

really? got other examples of this rate of gas evolution at the same power input that stiffler is using? or other examples of using one electrode and still evolving gas?

what's with you and the spell check? browser doesn't support it? too lazy? is the clue in my forum name?  demonstrable, oxidizing, electrolyzers ;)

edit: imho, you misspelling oxidizing twice does damage to your chemistry credibility.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 23, 2009, 11:14:43 PM
In Stiffler's case, the gas is being evolved so slowly that large bubbles do not form, and the tinier the bubbles the more they are affected by the movement of the water molecules themselves and water currents. I personally do not think this in itself is anything remarkable.

"Making the normal sound  remarkable" is pretty much the theme of this site, for the most part imho....     But if Stiffler had real information/data/measurements on what was forming on the cathode in his experiment, and actually SHOWED the product is something other than oxide or O2, then it might be interesting, but all you can do is speculate after watching his video (which isn't very scientific and standard procedure here on this site) ...

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 23, 2009, 11:18:29 PM
"Making the normal sound  remarkable" is pretty much the theme of this site, for the most part....     But if Stiffler had real information/data/measurements on what was forming on the cathode in his experiment, and actually SHOWS the product is something other than oxide or O2, then it might be interesting, but all you can do is speculate after watching his video (which isn't very scientific and standard procedure here on this site) ...

i'm calling bs here. stiffler provides plenty of information to replicate this, he just doesn't tolerate ignorance, like yours.

here is where you speculated (which isn't very scientific and standard procedure here on this site).  ::)
He says that oxygen isn't forming, but that isn't accurate (and in reality impossible)......   Oxygen is forming but instead of bubbling up, it is most likely forming an oxide layer on the electrode, then falling off....        Stifler seems quick to jump to conclusions at times.    Cool experiment though.

anyways, my point is that there is most likely more than one answer to these questions pointing you in a crooked line. i'll leave you two to do that voodoo that you do, so well.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 23, 2009, 11:43:50 PM
Wilby, why not leave the silly games aside now?  That was a bit of playful banter on a pointless thread... we can get over that here and now.

Quote
the electrode is not copper.

again, not a copper electrode. bugger huh?

speaking from over a year of experience with the SEC 15-3 i think it would be foolish to assume anything.

yes in one or more of those videos there is actually 2 wires in the water, but only one wire supply. one of those clips has only one electrode in the water, and it is evolving hydrogen. why would tap water be the logical next step?

the hydrogen is immediately leaving the water, it is the ?oxygen? that is not. furthermore, the guiness analogy doesn't hold. anyone who has built a cell will tell you the evolved gases fill the top of the container and then start 'saturating' down. this does nothing of the sort. watch again, or better yet get a working SEC together and try it yourself.

really? got other examples of this rate of gas evolution at the same power input that stiffler is using? or other examples of using one electrode and still evolving gas?

what's with you and the spell check? browser doesn't support it? too lazy? is the clue in my forum name?  demonstrable, oxidize, electrolyzers

your chemistry credibility is falling fast when you misspell oxidize twice...

Wilby, unless your watching something different to me, Stiffler actually says it is copper - I've replayed it half a dozen times.

Granted, in one video it was hard to tell if there was more than one wire in the water, and it was not obvious that there were two, but given that the other two demos clearly showed two wires I would assume there would be two wires entering the water in every case.

Why do you say that the oxygen is immediately leaving the water?  Where is that shown?  Stiffler talks about the hydrogen evolving, and we can clearly see that circulating around in the water, but Stiffler only talks about bits falling off the anode and sinking to the bottom, so it has to be a solid oxide.

As far as the Guiness analogy goes, I think it holds up quite well. In normal electrolysers the rate of gas evolving tends to form much larger bubbles which are obviously more buoyant, this is why we see the difference.

You have no idea what power Stiffler was using as as far as I'm aware he doesn't mention it. Clearly he has a decent voltage present, but very little current flow.

If you've successfully built a SEC, congratulations, I understand they can be fairly temperamental ccts even with the correct transistor - I've not yet been able to get hold of the correct transistor and no alternative I've tried has worked.

Finally, I take it your USA. You might have noted I'm English and over here we do tend to use the Queens English, not the AmercaniZed slang version.  Hence we oxidiSe rather than oxidiZe.  But I'll forgive you this oversight if you will let the past lie... and I'll give you demonstrable.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 23, 2009, 11:58:23 PM
we are talking about the heavy water vid clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktHaAIKPOCo&feature=channel
hydrogen evolving off the black wire. at what time does he say either electrode is copper?

Granted, in one video it was hard to tell if there was more than one wire in the water, and it was not obvious that there were two, but given that the other two demos clearly showed two wires I would assume there would be two wires entering the water in every case.
i gave you an easy link as well as the time, here it is again.
here is the 'easy button' for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_yOSDVJ1vY&feature=channel listen at around 2:50.
what more can i do?

Why do you say that the oxygen is immediately leaving the water?  Where is that shown?  Stiffler talks about the hydrogen evolving, and we can clearly see that circulating around in the water, but Stiffler only talks about bits falling off the anode and sinking to the bottom, so it has to be a solid oxide.
wow where did you get that? i've already repeated myself once, i'm not going to hold your hand and do it again. i never said anything of the sort. seen an eye doctor lately? stiffler doesn't refer to them as 'bits' either, so assuming it's an oxide isn't, how did your 'mate' say it? isn't very scientific and standard procedure here on this site.  ;)

As far as the Guiness analogy goes, I think it holds up quite well. In normal electrolysers the rate of gas evolving tends to form much larger bubbles which are obviously more buoyant, this is why we see the difference.
got a reference? an example other than your opinion?

You have no idea what power Stiffler was using as as far as I'm aware he doesn't mention it. Clearly he has a decent voltage present, but very little current flow.
more assumption. i follow his work and replicate it. again you demonstrate your inability to pay attention and comprehend, he does mention it in one of the clips, 12V and .056A
yeah, 12V is decent...

If you've successfully built a SEC, congratulations, I understand they can be fairly temperamental ccts even with the correct transistor - I've not yet been able to get hold of the correct transistor and no alternative I've tried has worked.
keep at it little camper.

Finally, I take it your USA. You might have noted I'm English and over here we do tend to use the Queens English, not the AmercaniZed slang version.  Hence we oxidiSe rather than oxidiZe.  But I'll forgive you this oversight if you will let the past lie... and I'll give you demonstrable.
don't forget electrolyzers  ;)

edit: flying spaghetti monster save the queen.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 24, 2009, 12:02:26 AM
Wilby, why not leave the silly games aside now?  That was a bit of playful banter on a pointless thread... we can get over that here and now.

Lol..  Good luck with that.    He's on my ignore list for good reason.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 24, 2009, 12:27:05 AM
Quote
the hydrogen is immediately leaving the water, it is the ?oxygen? that is not

Yes you're right Wilby, on closer inspection, I don't think you did say that the oxygen was leaving the water... but those question marks throw a whole different light on the sentence don't they?  Wasn't it you that was educating me in punctuation... because that is what is important, not capital letters??

Yep I've watched that video link, but we don't really get a good look at the top of the cell do we??  And that large croc clip looks fairly close to the water level - hence my being wary. If it really is just that piece of ss wire electrode and if it is hydrogen being evolved then, as I mentioned previously this scenario would be intriguing. The cct would effectively be pumping electrons into the water. If it is hydrogen alone being evolved then there would be a surplus of OH- in the water - the water would be charged. Shorting the water to earth should see a current flow. Curious as to why Stiffler would not mention or demonstrate this.

Quote
we are talking about the heavy water vid clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktHaAIKPOCo&feature=channel
hydrogen evolving off the black wire. at what time does he say either electrode is copper?

Approx. 2 mins in... copper, copper. And you were saying about me needing my eyes testing...

Thanks Wilby, but I really don't want you holding my hand, I don't know what you've been doing with it... it's clearly not operating the Caps Shift!

Remember you called me rude Wilby, well you're not doing so bad yourself now are you? In fact I've been quite well-mannered here and you're being the asshole. Does it feel good?

Here's another edit:

Quote
again you demonstrate your inability to pay attention and comprehend, he does mention it in one of the clips, 12V and .056A
yeah, 12V is decent...

You're talking about the primary cct power, I'm talking about the secondary cct power, which if radiant energy is involved will bear little significance to the input power.

You're just arguing for the sake of it now. I'd got you all wrong, it seems you're just a literate muppet.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 24, 2009, 12:34:43 AM
Yes you're right Wilby, on closer inspection, I don't think you did say that the oxygen was leaving the water... but those question marks throw a whole different light on the sentence don't they?  Wasn't it you that was educating me in punctuation... because that is what is important, not capital letters??

Yep I've watched that video link, but we don't really get a good look at the top of the cell do we??  And that large croc clip looks fairly close to the water level - hence my being wary. If it really is just that piece of ss wire electrode and if it is hydrogen being evolved then, as I mentioned previously this scenario would be intriguing. If it is hydrogen alone being evolved then there would be a surplus of OH- in the water - the water would be charged. Shorting the water to earth should see a current flow. Curious as to why Stiffler would not mention or demonstrate this.

Thanks Wilby, but I really don't want you holding my hand, I don't know what you've been doing with it... it's clearly not operating the Caps Shift!

Remember you called me rude Wilby, well you're not doing so bad yourself now are you? In fact I've been quite well-mannered here and you're being the asshole. Does it feel good?
of course i am. the question marks are there because oxygen should be evolving at that electrode, but i am not making assumptions as you are, hence the question marks surrounding it. actually i was educating you on spell check, are we gonna leave that be or are you opening season again? abre los ojos...
now where does stiffler say it's a copper electrode?

no you really don't get a good look. why not, instead of making assumptions, build one and see for yourself? you obviously see the implications unlike your mate.

still trying to figure out the "clue in my forum name" thing... my forum name uses capitals! GASP!!!
i'm just an enigma aren't i? don't fall in love baby.

i did call you rude, and still stand by that. you were being rude. i haven't called you a retard for not being able to construct a SEC 15-3, so i'm still shiny.  ;) you're behaving pretty good here though...  wait, there you go with the name slinging again.

right on time, your speculative argument based on assumption has fallen to pieces so now you call names.

edit: i noticed you edited your post. at two minutes he states one electrode is copper. he does say something about other experiments with two copper electrodes, but this one uses a copper electrode and a copper wire plated with ? he doesn't specify other than to say "whatever they coat diodes with". i have always used steel, i missed that, my bad.
are you suggesting that a reaction is taking place with the copper through whatever is plating it? in distilled and deionized water? i would love to see your 'balanced equation' for that... ::)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 24, 2009, 12:49:18 AM
Can I be an enigma too? No, wait! Can I still buy an argument?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 24, 2009, 12:51:33 AM
Quote
the question marks are there because oxygen should be evolving at that electrode, but i am not making assumptions as you are

Why would oxygen be evolving at the cathode?

You know it's a shame Wilby, because you're clearly not one of the regular muppets, though you're also clearly just out to cause aggravation and toy with people. You clearly enjoy conflict and playing your word games, but why mess up a decent thread when old nitinnum has a whole truckload to piss with?

You could have started fresh here but you come in all guns blazing... and nobody likes you now.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 24, 2009, 12:56:14 AM
Why would oxygen be evolving at the cathode?

You know it's a shame Wilby, because you're clearly not one of the regular muppets, though you're also clearly just out to cause aggravation and toy with people. You clearly enjoy conflict and playing your word games, but why mess up a decent thread when old nitinnum has a whole truckload to piss with?

You could have started fresh here but you come in all guns blazing... and nobody likes you now.
where did i say cathode? i clearly said electrode. wow, go get your eyes checked.

indeed. me playing word games? you're the one who has misrepresented, misinterpreted and flat out fabricated things that i have said. i got heathens aplenty right here.

more assumption and speculation. nobody? i bet somebody likes me, heairbear does, he hooked me up with an original SEC 15-3. props and respect to you heairbear!

edit: removed redundant question.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 24, 2009, 01:00:41 AM
Ok, fair enough Wilby you can have the last word. I'll be wasting no more time with you anymore. I clearly overestimated your intelligence and I see that further conversation is quite pointless. 

Perhaps HB will play with you for a while.

Welcome to my ignore list.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 24, 2009, 01:17:01 AM
Great Willby! You just scared off the only two smart guys on this entire forum. What the hell are we going to do now? Don't you realize we need people like Farrah and Newb to point out the obvious? Now we have no one to call us retards. Well, maybe I can help out a bit... I am such a retard! There, I feel a little better, but, it's just not the same without them. I feel smarter already...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 24, 2009, 01:57:02 PM
more evidence of farrah's misdirection and misrepresentation...

i said:
got other examples of this rate of gas evolution at the same power input that stiffler is using? or other examples of using one electrode and still evolving gas?
that's power input we are talking about.

to which farrah responded with:
You have no idea what power Stiffler was using as as far as I'm aware he doesn't mention it. Clearly he has a decent voltage present, but very little current flow.
we are still talking about input power here. note she provided no examples, but instead responded with assumption and speculation.

and i replied with:
more assumption. i follow his work and replicate it. again you demonstrate your inability to pay attention and comprehend, he does mention it in one of the clips, 12V and .056A
yeah, 12V is decent...
still talking about input power...

she then edited a following post more than 10 hours later to add this:

You're talking about the primary cct power, I'm talking about the secondary cct power, which if radiant energy is involved will bear little significance to the input power.

i especially like how she accused me of arguing just for the sake of it. classic, and she does this in the same post that she confabulates the idea that it was secondary cct power that was being discussed, she can't even remember what it is that is being discussed, input or output...   ::)

the electrode farrah and newb were so quick to assume is oxidizing is not copper. they have been trying hard to obfuscate that.

edit: i'm still at a loss as to why she suddenly brings up "radiant energy" and how it relates to the input power in that last edit of hers. more of her usual assumption and speculation as she has admitted her failure to construct a simple (it's so easy a caveman can do it) SEC 15-3, ergo it can't be experimental evidence.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 24, 2009, 04:26:49 PM
LOL! Even better! what is added is even more damning than the original. I find it absolutely hilarious that a scramble for saving face ends up in the mud. She can't rethink around this one because she has no clue.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: TheCell on July 24, 2009, 09:41:21 PM
@peterpierre

Can you provide further information about your setup now?

Maybe this guy's device is using piezos too for resonating purpose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8tJhqOUEhM
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 25, 2009, 12:40:39 AM
Hi guys,

sorry for laying low (partially it's the fault of the forum - it just doesn't seem to want to notify me about new posts). Look I am still kind of trying to understand why people get constantly into fights and why everybody insist always on being "so right" about everything they say, this is not a peeing contest - we are trying to save the little we got left and we are not doing to good of a job when everybody tries to put the other persons ideas or concepts down. Why don't we all just collect whatever individual findings we may have and take it from there? It's really not a big deal ... and whoever is in here for wealth or fame perhaps probably is in the wrong spot - I thought that way myself too but in reality we are all born, we live we die ... just leave your mark and fuck the rest, if u are meant to be rich and famous, so be it - if not - why bother?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 25, 2009, 01:27:42 AM
Hey Peter! Thanks for joining the party! We are having a blast! So where are you at with your research? You have been gone for awhile, let's chat and see what your up to. If your not posting you must be playing with the cell.

I just found this video of Puharich. Very interesting video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oa0bFK6iNI&feature=related

Puharich says he uses sound for the driving frequency @ 600Hz. The spark plug injector uses a special material(ceramic) that resonates at 600Hz with harmonics being created. Every aspect of the plug is tuned to the resonant frequency. But, the big difference between Meyer and Puharich is AC opposed to Stan's pulsed DC. Hmmm... I wonder why that is?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 25, 2009, 02:13:16 AM
Well, neither is really wrong to be honest Puharich doing AC and Meyer doing pulsed DC ... it is simple really, in order to create a force strong enough to agitate the water molecule sufficiently you need Voltage - not current. Stepping up Voltage (because the amounts we get - even out of the power sockets in Europe are not sufficient), requires you to convert even a pulsed DC voltage to an AC Voltage carrier Wave (perfect sinus) in order to be able to step the voltage up ... as any electronics person will tell you, you cannot step-up a DC voltage without prior converting it to AC and then convering after step-up back to DC ... so in a way - both of them are right ... now the truly tricky part is the proper calculation of the step-charge effect ... it take math and utmost caution. I do have an oscilloscope but it's a cheap piece of shit basically so I'll need to get or borrow one that actually gives me acces to the information carried by the produced wave. For one ... a toroidal transformer, good idea - however you will not cause any induction sufficient to produce a voltage on the secondary winding (thats where 99% of all fellow experimenters fail) . to step up a voltage with a toroidal transformer, you need AC running with 50-60 Hz ... now separate of that comes the task to get the output AC (which no longer carries those 50-60Hz on the secondary winding) to pulse at 50% duty cycle with the necessary waveform to cause a resonance in the dielectric (water) ... then and only then, will you get the results you and everybody else here is looking for ... and don't forget the bifilar coils in that plan because you might experience a really bad awakening ... I know of a guy in the UK who has been blowing himself and his equipment up over and over again and can't seem to see the light and why that is happening ... well ... do I need to tell more?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 25, 2009, 06:57:18 AM
Excellent! I'm not so fond of winding coils myself. It seems almost pointless without exact details, which we sadly don't have, to wind a coil for the purposes specified. An alternator makes an easier project IMO and I don't need to worry about chokes. Transformers are so finicky. Stun guns don't work... Ignition coils don't work... TV and monitor flyback transformers don't work either... The only way I didn't do it was the way his diagrams show, until recently. I admit it, I can be a total retard! Maybe this time it will work.

At this point, I am pretty sure Stan wound a custom stator coil to achieve anything above 12V. Anything over 15V drags the alternator down. A definite sign of too much current. The frequencies generated start with 60Hz AC, rectified making the signal 120Hz Pulsed DC, input to the alternator. The pulley ratio is close to 3:1 and the motor speed is rated 1750 rpm. You sure do not want to be in the path of the belt if it ever breaks. The frequency measured per phase was 1.5Khz. Gas production or better yet, bubble action, was good from an open cell test of a single tube set cell.

So far, I am assuming the alternator must be custom wound on both stator and rotor for the most efficient energy transfer as far as I know. Especially if I am tuning for resonance. I still have that Dave Lawton PWM laying around here somewhere. A test with that might show a bit of insight. Maybe I can get some sort of modulation going on. It's quite a puzzle isn't it?

HB
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 25, 2009, 07:11:32 AM
Excellent! I'm not so fond of winding coils myself. It seems almost pointless without exact details, which we sadly don't have, to wind a coil for the purposes specified. An alternator makes an easier project IMO and I don't need to worry about chokes. Transformers are so finicky. Stun guns don't work... Ignition coils don't work... TV and monitor flyback transformers don't work either... The only way I didn't do it was the way his diagrams show, until recently. I admit it, I can be a total retard! Maybe this time it will work.

At this point, I am pretty sure Stan wound a custom stator coil to achieve anything above 12V. Anything over 15V drags the alternator down. A definite sign of too much current. The frequencies generated start with 60Hz AC, rectified making the signal 120Hz Pulsed DC, input to the alternator. The pulley ratio is close to 3:1 and the motor speed is rated 1750 rpm. You sure do not want to be in the path of the belt if it ever breaks. The frequency measured per phase was 1.5Khz. Gas production or better yet, bubble action, was good from an open cell test of a single tube set cell.

So far, I am assuming the alternator must be custom wound on both stator and rotor for the most efficient energy transfer as far as I know. Especially if I am tuning for resonance. I still have that Dave Lawton PWM laying around here somewhere. A test with that might show a bit of insight. Maybe I can get some sort of modulation going on. It's quite a puzzle isn't it?

HB

Actually if you would read through my last post you have all you need to know right there - thats one ... secondly how the discussion slid into using an alternator and voltages between 12V but not higher than 15V I don't know but I can say for sure it's the wrong way to go about it. Third: all mentioned by you such as stun guns, ignition coils, flyback transformers it would be possible to use them, and I did not use the coil I wound because it was malfunctioning, however I have now a professionally wound and isolated toroidal transformer which you feed with 24V AC and on the secondary winding it spits out 400V AC (which once rectified are approx 560V DC) and thats before the charging chokes .... sooo ... so much for details so far, more -> soon :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 25, 2009, 07:36:55 AM
Holy cow! Man, you guys are out for blood tonite! Maybe Farrah and Newb where right? I just wanted to offer my findings... How can you say the alternator is the wrong way to go? That's what I saw connected to the demo cell in his videos and specified in his documents. If it would help, I can show you pictures for verification

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 25, 2009, 07:56:12 AM
If you didn't want my opinion why did you invite me with the poll? Did you expect all of us to see your view without any criticism and take it as gospel? You don't even have a fully working model, but, yet you know exactly how it works and expect us to accept that as a working replication? IMO, your plan is has already failed with the idea of using cavitation or whatever it is you expect your cell to do. Quit talkin shit and show some work! I offer any documentation of my work I have so far and I am not afraid to show it. All you have to do is ask. If my success continues, I will be more than willing to share that info with out calling a person a retard or some other derogatory comment.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: dankie on July 25, 2009, 09:35:44 AM
An alternator is cool , but Stephen Meyers had a solid state oscillator wich is much more efficient and can go to higher frequencies .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6PY54QPVDk&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fuser%2Fdankiewfc&feature=player_profilepage

I'll be selling both my god circuits for about 300-400 $

Theres also my own version of the hex controller I'm working on .
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 25, 2009, 12:47:17 PM
If you didn't want my opinion why did you invite me with the poll? Did you expect all of us to see your view without any criticism and take it as gospel? You don't even have a fully working model, but, yet you know exactly how it works and expect us to accept that as a working replication? IMO, your plan is has already failed with the idea of using cavitation or whatever it is you expect your cell to do. Quit talkin shit and show some work! I offer any documentation of my work I have so far and I am not afraid to show it. All you have to do is ask. If my success continues, I will be more than willing to share that info with out calling a person a retard or some other derogatory comment.

I am sorry HB I did not mean to hurt your feelings or question  your opinion, I was seeing myself in trying to bounce something back that actually can help correct some of the false impression caused by a running alternator seen in some test setups and no I am not calling you a retard and I am sorry if my post sounded derogatory to you or anybody else I jus had a very long night and was at the same time on the phone and was setting up another computer and dun ask me what else .... hope u understand.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 25, 2009, 03:30:39 PM
Stephen? Stan's brother? Is this the device you mean?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 25, 2009, 03:32:03 PM
No problem Peter, I understand...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 26, 2009, 02:39:10 AM
If you didn't want my opinion why did you invite me with the poll? Did you expect all of us to see your view without any criticism and take it as gospel? You don't even have a fully working model, but, yet you know exactly how it works and expect us to accept that as a working replication? IMO, your plan is has already failed with the idea of using cavitation or whatever it is you expect your cell to do. Quit talkin shit and show some work! I offer any documentation of my work I have so far and I am not afraid to show it. All you have to do is ask. If my success continues, I will be more than willing to share that info with out calling a person a retard or some other derogatory comment.

HeairBear, I agree 100% about the use of the three phase alternator.  The alternator appears to be driven by a single phase, 120VAC motor with a starting capacitor.  On his dune buggy, I saw the alternator driven by the same or similar motor that he used in his home demo videos.  The AC motor is not driven by an inverter on his dune buggy though.  It’s driven by a 12VDC powered rotary generator produced by a company called Redi-line.  The generator is hooked up to a 12VDC battery and feeds 120VAC to the single phase AC motor which drives the dedicated alternator he hooks his cells up to. 

The reason is (just speculating here) I believe he doesn’t want to run the alternator off the VW engine RPMs is because it would affect the voltage frequency as the RPMs change from say an idle to full throttle.  This would affect the cell operation so he isolated it from the engines drive pulley.

Good job HeairBear!!!!!  The alternator IS key to doing it the Meyer way which is what I’m setting up and testing now.

Oscar.

   
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 26, 2009, 04:33:46 AM
Thanks Oscar! Here is my setup...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on July 26, 2009, 04:46:06 AM
I can tell where this is going ... well, I do admire your creative spirits guys :) I guess that means that any input/findings from me are no longer necessary ...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 26, 2009, 05:15:21 PM
Tell us, where is this going? I would like very much to read your input/findings if you would as to be so kind as to show them. If you have a theory, let us hear it. Showing references would help out too...

I have a question for everyone. Where does the idea of using a toroidal transformer come from? Show me the references why using one is better than say a rod or EI core.

Another question... How are Stan's chokes wound? Any drawing I have seen has shown a counter-wound non-inductive coil. What effects do you get from a coil wound in that fashion?

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: OscarMeyer on July 28, 2009, 09:42:30 AM
Tell us, where is this going? I would like very much to read your input/findings if you would as to be so kind as to show them. If you have a theory, let us hear it. Showing references would help out too...

I have a question for everyone. Where does the idea of using a toroidal transformer come from? Show me the references why using one is better than say a rod or EI core.

Another question... How are Stan's chokes wound? Any drawing I have seen has shown a counter-wound non-inductive coil. What effects do you get from a coil wound in that fashion?


@ HeairBear,

You are not going to get ANY real information out of Peter.  He is NOT replicating Meyer like his thread claims he is partaking in.  I believe Peter is a plant.  He is simply here to steer us away from what Meyer was doing along with his methods.  Notice how strongly he objects to the alternator idea when in fact it is found in both the non-vehicle and vehicle demonstrations of Stan’s WFC.  Peter may be getting paid big bucks to lead us into the wrong direction so we can never unravel this Stan Meyer mystery. 

Just look at his demo cell at the beginning of his thread and notice how it does not resemble Stan Meyer’s demo cell.  He is presenting a cell that is NOT like Stan Meyer’s cell as Stan Meyer used 10 sets of tubes in his WFC demo unit which supposedly Peter is replicating.  Now one could argue that Dave Lawton and Ravi are using different tube/electrode arrangements too.  This could simply be dismissed as typical but then notice how he is not forthcoming with any of his findings.  You ask for even theories and he does not respond.  He doesn’t have a clue.  That’s why.

Peter is totally disregarding the alternator driven by the AC motor which is obviously key to replicating Stan Meyer’s WFC.  How do we know this for a fact?  Because Stan not only used the alternator driven by an AC motor in his home demonstration video, but he also used an alternator driven by an AC motor on his dune buggy that ran on water!  To see for yourself, just go to the following link and pause the video at 25 seconds into the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a74uarqap2E

Now look at the rear driver’s side tire of the dune buggy.  Directly above this tire you will discover the AC motor that is attached to an alternator by a fan belt just like he used in his home demonstration video. 

Next, advance the video and pause it at the 30 second mark.  You will see a blue motor looking device on the left hand side of the control box that is centered in the frame.  The blue motor looking device is a DC to AC rotary generator that provides the AC for the drive motor that turns the alternator mounted above the driver’s side rear tire.  To see what it really looks like and who makes it, please go to the following link:

http://elanenterprises.tripod.com/prod01.htm

Of course Peter doesn’t want us to even consider using the alternator because he is really NOT replicating Meyer like he claims in the title of this thread.  He is just trying to through us off track.  I hope they are paying him well.

Oscar.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 29, 2009, 01:50:35 AM
Great observation, Oscar! I don't think Peter is a plant though. We should treat him and all others with respect no matter what the viewpoints are. We are entitled to our opinions and have the luxury of expressing them. Yes, even Farrah Day, although his/her name calling is nothing more than disrespectful and deserves no more than disrespect in return.

There are two demo cells Stan made and I would like to maybe discuss the similarities and differences between the two. Here is the diagram of the other demo cell for reference...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 29, 2009, 04:54:20 AM
As you can see, these devices are rather easy to understand and cheap to build. Well, comparatively...

The rotary and tubes cell setup has a fixed gap and no frequency adjustments.

The Variable gap plate setup does have a variable frequency generator, more than likely to adjust the frequency to the gap space which is also variable.

IMO, I believe this to be a big clue into what Stan was doing with these devices. What kind of resonance can you have between two plates? Spatial resonance? Was he utilizing Longitudinal or Scalar waves between the excitors? Is this why he chose the word "Waveguide" to describe a tubular cell? Stan had also referenced Puharich in at least one of his patents. A quick look we find that Puharich's patent is very similar to Stan's. I do agree that Stan was inspired from this patent, it's as plain as day. When I looked more into Scalar wave generation, I kept finding work done by Puharich concerning scalar healing devices. Very interesting! It turns out these scalar waves were first found by none other than Tesla. His wireless energy systems were based on this type of energy transfer. Most recently, Dr. Meyl and Dr. Stiffler have demonstrated this fascinating technology with plenty of information available on the internet. Replications are being done as I type.

Let's compare diagrams of Stan and Dr. Meyl...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 29, 2009, 05:21:32 AM
Further investigation shows a possibility as to why Stan may have used non-inductive bifilar wound coils calling them resonant charging chokes...

Copied from this page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalar_field_theory_(pseudoscience)

Theory of a basic scalar communications system

A scalar communications broadcast antenna does not make any sense according to normal electromagnetic theory. The goal of a scalar broadcast antenna is to create powerful repulsion/attraction between two magnetic fields, to create large scalar bubbles/voids. This is done by using a broadcast antenna with two opposing electromagnetic coils that effectively cancel out as much of each other's magnetic field as possible. An ideal scalar broadcast antenna will emit no electromagnetic field (or as little as possible), since all power is being focused into the repulsion/attraction between the two opposing magnetic fields. Normal electromagnetic theory suggests that since such a device emits no measurable electromagnetic field, it is useless and will only heat up. For a scalar broadcast antenna, any normal RF emission is wasted energy.

A scalar reception antenna similarly excludes normal electromagnetic waves and only measures changes in magnetic field attraction and repulsion. This will typically be a two-coil powered antenna that sets up a static opposing or attracting magnetic field between the coils. The coils are counter-wound so that any normal RF signal will be picked up by both coils simultaneously and effectively cancel itself out, leaving only the scalar component.


Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 29, 2009, 06:45:46 AM
Jeeze, this is a vicious forum...   ;D

Don't hurt me guys, but I wanted to recommend reading John Bedini's new book called "Free Energy Generation - Circuits and Schematics" He has the same thing that Meyer has, which is a radiant charger, producing 400 volts or more off the secondary (that's just what you can detect with a meter). The thing is, Meyer used AC waveforms to start with, Bedini uses DC to start with. But the final product, being a clipped DC voltage is the same concept. Its called "Sharp Gradients," meaning fast switching speed on inductor coils, and circuits. Circuits with fast switching speed (it has to be sharp pulsed DC - NOT AC POWER!!!) disobey the 2nd law of thermodynamics - this is proven.

In Bedini's book, his patent talks at great length about positive energy and negative energy. Negative energy enters into a given system from the ether. One important note in this book. They say that electricity comes from infinite massless energy fields in space. These fields contain no mass, and thus require no physical energy to divert them and tap into them to make electricity. One thing that is stressed is that you have to have a battery, or a capacitor to capture the radiant energy. All machines harnessing radiant energy are endothermic (taking in heat).... Conventional devices use positive energy (current) and they get hot. Clearly MEYER was NOT using conventional current in any shape or form. Bedini's information should be looked at closely because it does contain clues.

In my personal opinion, we haven't even come close to figuring out WHAT Meyer was doing.

Read between the lines:

His cell ran at ambient temperature.... Negative energy machines run at ambient (this is NOT electrolysis, and there is ZERO CURRENT). Current cannot produce an ambient cell after 30 minutes!

His cell produced free electricity which when recaptured, and fed back in, could power the machine, meaning the source of energy was NOT in the electronics, the energy was coming in from the vacuum. Meyer did NOT need an alternator, according to his literature. He didn't need any real supply power, at least not at the end. I think we have all missed this point. We are NOT dealing with conventional electrolysis.

Nobody has a Meyer cell, so there is zero proof that he used 304T stainless as per the patents. Zinc and aluminum plates form diodes and capacitors when submerged in water, due to their electrochemical coating.... How do we know for a fact that stainless is what he used?

Ok just some thoughts. Please don't kill me because I do NOT have a working cell. What I have built is a solid state radiant charger that can charge water to 200 volts and the water glows in the dark and consumes nearly zero current (it functions as a capacitor). Whether this is useful, I don't know. But at this point, we need to open our minds instead of focusing too narrowly on Meyer's papers.



Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 29, 2009, 07:31:28 AM

What I have built is a solid state radiant charger that can charge water to 200 volts and the water glows in the dark and consumes nearly zero current (it functions as a capacitor). Whether this is useful, I don't know. But at this point, we need to open our minds instead of focusing too narrowly on Meyer's papers.

Cool! Do you have some video footage?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 29, 2009, 07:33:03 AM
Nobody has a Meyer cell, so there is zero proof that he used 304T stainless as per the patents. Zinc and aluminum plates form diodes and capacitors when submerged in water, due to their electrochemical coating.... How do we know for a fact that stainless is what he used?

Hey SM! Wonderful post! I love your latest window motor build by the way. I can tell you do a lot of hands on work.

Not only do we have a signed affidavit from Materials Joining Consultants claiming the materials used were T-304 stainless steel by spectrographic chemical analysis. We have several witnesses documented seeing the devices in a public demonstration. Just recently all of Stan's newly found equipment was sold to "The Orion Project". So we still have the original equipment for reference. You may have to go through some loops to get close to it and have a closer look or maybe just write them and ask.

keep up the good work!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 29, 2009, 10:18:53 AM
HB

Quote
Yes, even Farrah Day, although his/her name calling is nothing more than disrespectful and deserves no more than disrespect in return

I may not always be 'politically correct' because I call a spade a spade and don't beat about the bush, but I do give respect where it is deserved. You say that I name-call, well if someone posts utter nonsense and I speak my mind and tell them so, and this is deemed a disrespectful so be it. We are not at junior school here, we shouldn't have to pussyfoot around mindless people making mindless posts.

If we all spoke up for common sense once in a while, there would be far less nonsense to have to cope with. I consider people like 'nitinnum' who post page after page of nonsense an insult to my intelligence and hence every bit as disrespectful as you deem me to be. Respect has to be earned - posting nonsense is not the way to do it.

Rant over.

OK, why have I never seen that Meyer diagram: Memo 420 1-6?  It is not in my copy of the Hydrogen Fracturing Process. My copy only goes to 420 1-25.

This is different to anything I've seen before.  First time I've seen mention of a variable transformer, and the inductor section is now a simple bifilar wound coil. This is also the first time I can recall actually seeing the mention of ss T304 as the electrodes.

Why I wonder was this not part of my copy of the Technical Brief, and where has this stuff been hiding?

According to the diagram it is simply the fully rectified mains voltage that is being fed to the cell via the bifilar wound inductor. The pulsing cct simply serves to gate the rectified mains voltage. 

Where did you get this from HB? 

Incidentally the alternator here has clearly been replaced by solid state circuitry, so are we to assume that the alternator was part of a much earlier set up which was ultimately superseded?

SM,

Quote
Ok just some thoughts. Please don't kill me because I do NOT have a working cell. What I have built is a solid state radiant charger that can charge water to 200 volts and the water glows in the dark and consumes nearly zero current (it functions as a capacitor). Whether this is useful, I don't know. But at this point, we need to open our minds instead of focusing too narrowly on Meyer's papers.


Stiffler has some water charging info that compares with your findings over on his website and it's something I'm currently experimenting with over on the Half-Baked Ideas section along with Loner.

Where it gets interesting is that though it appears the water can be charged, this is done with only one electrode submerged in the water. If you submerge another electrode to effectively run to ground and complete the cct, the water will discharge as fast as it charges. Hence Meyer's cct on the face of it cannot charge the water.

So the question is: What can we do with this charged water to cause it to evolve H and O, without it simply discharging.

Of course the very nature of this charged water is interesting in itself. Is it that many OH- and H+ ions have been induced? If so what is preventing them from quickly recombining back into H2O? How is water holding it's charge?

Are you charging the water with a single electrode?  Would be very interested to know more about your set up. I've had no luck at all charging water from a 1.8Kv supply and I'm wondering why this is so.. what could I be doing wrong... or not doing right.

Quote
Read between the lines:

His cell ran at ambient temperature.... Negative energy machines run at ambient (this is NOT electrolysis, and there is ZERO CURRENT). Current cannot produce an ambient cell after 30 minutes!

His cell produced free electricity which when recaptured, and fed back in, could power the machine, meaning the source of energy was NOT in the electronics, the energy was coming in from the vacuum. Meyer did NOT need an alternator, according to his literature. He didn't need any real supply power, at least not at the end. I think we have all missed this point. We are NOT dealing with conventional electrolysis.

This is very interesting stuff SM, and in my opinion where more effort should be focussed - though I'm afraid nothing will ever convince me that Meyer himself actually knew what he was doing.

I'm very much leaning toward the pulsed inductor circuitry tapping into radiant energy of some form, but at some point the water must surely be ionising and exchanging charges to evolve as H and O. If this is the case, then a good current must also be flowing between the electrodes... though if radiant energy is involved, this current would not have to be provided by the power supply.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 29, 2009, 11:35:23 PM
Forgot to add that I wonder exactly where that Memo 420 1-6 fits in chronologically with all the other stuff?

It appears we are now being told then that Meyer used 120Hz +ve half-sinosoidal pulses, at what just... 120V. And, though it is titled as a VIC, I see no voltage intensification going on, just gated rectified mains voltage.... yet another configuration and yet another side to the coin.

One thing though, this new configuration is ultra simple and very self-explanatory compared to any of the other depictions. I've actually got all the components at hand to put a test circuit together and try this.

Of course the bifilar inductor specs are an unknown and so would be trial and error.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 30, 2009, 12:14:02 AM
For a water capacitor, I use one aluminum plate, and one stainless steel plate submerged in baking soda and distilled water. The steel plate flows current in both directions. The aluminum plate acts as a DIODE, blocking current only in one direction. You have a diode, in one direction, and a capacitor in the other direction. Now you have a real water capacitor. You can charge it up to 120 volts, and unplug it, and the charge slowly goes down. After it is disconnected, you can actually discharge the water capacitor and form a HUGE snapping spark, just like a regular capacitor - the water is really charging up and retaining a charge, even after disconnected, though there is a small (tiny) amount of resistance.

Again I don't know if this is useful, but I think it is worthy of experimentation, since we can now play with high voltage, and low current.

I agree that Meyer's ideas are frustrating because he never explains things in full detail, which is annoying to say the least. In the end, I have no choice but to have faith in him. Listen to witness statements and also his "mode of operability" patent, which means his system had to work as explained in order for his patent to be granted. These things do give credibility.

I will make a video of my water capacitor. It gives off a faint glow with only 120 volts. Less than 100 volts, and the glow goes away. It appears that the water goes into a higher energy state as you raise voltage. The voltage is obviously doing something. I think it's worth investigating.

Ok, so aluminum is NOT one of the things that Stanley Meyer used. Still, I believe there are different ways to perform the same thing. The ultimate goal is to use "voltage potential" to perform work. Meyer used frequencies, and electronics. I want to try experimenting with aluminum! Thus far, I think we have failed pretty sorely on the electronics part of it. That's my opinion.  ;D








Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: georgesip on July 30, 2009, 12:19:08 AM
bonjour to all

at this pont i would just ad two schort comments

first to Oscar

if you would apply high AMP on the sytem it would deffenetly destry the BIOFILM (result of)

second to FarrahDay

what was the exakt date of the discovery of elektolyse and how mutch later were some Rules to it describet?

sorry for my englisch, but it is not my nativ language.

george
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 30, 2009, 12:25:18 AM
I found the diagrams and pictures in the independent study pdf...




Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: georgesip on July 30, 2009, 01:00:27 AM
@ supermuble

don't forget the microbiological aspect. it ist not for nothing!!!!

george
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 30, 2009, 04:43:27 AM
My water capacitor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL0WE5zZXgQ

Two aluminum plates submerged in baking soda and distilled water. This is a true water capacitor. The baking soda and distilled water forms a special electrolyte that is conductive. However, the aluminum oxide on each plate acts as a diode. No current can pass through the water bath. As you increase voltage, and charge the plates, the aluminum oxide is built up, blocking all current and raising voltage. Capacitance can be adjusted by raising or lowering the plates in the water. This is an adjustable capacitor. These plates charge up very quickly, it only took about 2 hours to charge the water to 235 volts. I used an automotive ignition module hooked to a microwave transformer. Current draw is 650ma @ 13.5 volts to run the transformer. Very little hydrogen is produced. I have not yet figured out what the maximum voltage is, or what happens when you try charging it to 500 or 1000 volts.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 30, 2009, 05:39:16 AM
Cool experiment.   I've seen similar 'sparkling'  between two electrodes connected directly to an AC wall outlet (zer0pointunlimted on youtube, the video appears to be gone now)  ... What you're doing is completely different I believe.

A sealed cell might be able to achieve higher voltage.



Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 30, 2009, 09:54:57 AM
Very interesting SM, what voltage is that microwave transformer putting out?

How do you know that it is the water itself being charged and not just a charge forming across the oxide layer?

Stiffler detailed an interesting experiment whereby he charged water with just one electrode, and was able to transfer the water to another container whereby it still held its charge.  The link to his website seems to have been contaminated at present as it's giving a pharmacy website, but I'm sure he'll sort it out soon. I have the details on hard copy if he doesn't. If you haven't seen it, then it will fit right in with your current line of work. He was using just tap water.

http://www.drstiffler.com/sgate.htm

Going back to your experiment, if the water itself is charged, then removing the electrodes completely should still provide you with a spark from the water to earth... have you tried this?

To my mind it sounds very much like the charge is sitting across the oxide layer and not the water, so there will be a build-up of ions of water grouping around the oxide layer, but the water will be merely a conductor carrying the charge.  In fact, if no current is flowing then I assume there would be a build up of ions around both electrodes, but of course no as such gas. I believe any tiny amount of gas you do get evolved will be from the aluminium reacting with the water as the oxide layer enhances. 

All very interesting nevertheless. Look forward to hearing more... I may well be missing something important here and further investigation is certainly called for.

I've got various experiments going on at present, but I think I might have to dig out my ali electrodes and have a play!

I have a 15Kv ignition coil setup that is doing everything except charging up the water!

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: wings on July 30, 2009, 11:23:17 AM
Very interesting SM, what voltage is that microwave transformer putting out?

How do you know that it is the water itself being charged and not just a charge forming across the oxide layer?

Stiffler detailed an interesting experiment whereby he charged water with just one electrode, and was able to transfer the water to another container whereby it still held its charge.  The link to his website seems to have been contaminated at present as it's giving a pharmacy website, but I'm sure he'll sort it out soon. I have the details on hard copy if he doesn't. If you haven't seen it, then it will fit right in with your current line of work. He was using just tap water.

http://www.drstiffler.com/sgate.htm

Going back to your experiment, if the water itself is charged, then removing the electrodes completely should still provide you with a spark from the water to earth... have you tried this?

To my mind it sounds very much like the charge is sitting across the oxide layer and not the water, so there will be a build-up of ions of water grouping around the oxide layer, but the water will be merely a conductor carrying the charge.  In fact, if no current is flowing then I assume there would be a build up of ions around both electrodes, but of course no as such gas. I believe any tiny amount of gas you do get evolved will be from the aluminium reacting with the water as the oxide layer enhances. 

All very interesting nevertheless. Look forward to hearing more... I may well be missing something important here and further investigation is certainly called for.

I've got various experiments going on at present, but I think I might have to dig out my ali electrodes and have a play!

I have a 15Kv ignition coil setup that is doing everything except charging up the water!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuMMp3KK9gI&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 30, 2009, 12:02:23 PM
SM

Quote
The aluminum plate acts as a DIODE, blocking current only in one direction. You have a diode, in one direction, and a capacitor in the other direction

I don't really consider this a diode as such, but rather a polarised or electrolytic capacitor, whereby connecting it the wrong way around destroys the dielectric oxide layer and hence allows current to flow.  I'm still inclined to think that the water is simply acting as one of the electrodes.

Newbie

Quote
Cool experiment.   I've seen similar 'sparkling'  between two electrodes connected directly to an AC wall outlet (zer0pointunlimted on youtube, the video appears to be gone now)  ... What you're doing is completely different I believe.

If I remember correctly Dave Lawton and Ravi both saw this photoluminescence phenomenon.

My take on this - for what it's worth - is that inducing the water molecule to ionise at the electrode is an endothermic reaction, so absorbing energy from the environment, but there will always be ions recombining back to a water molecule at the electrodes. When this happens, the energy is emitted as a photon. We don't see this if the the ions are quickly exchanging charges at the electrodes as in electrolysis, just when they are being held there as in this case. 

This just shows us how active things are at the electrodes and tells us about the constant energy fluctuations.

All good stuff.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 30, 2009, 04:38:49 PM
Here (could be) the key to all of this. Meyer said that electrons were stripped from the water molecule... But how?

According to Tom Bearden, when you charge a capacitor with "potential energy" the electrons are drawn into the capacitor from the local area. It is a phenomena that is totally separate from regular charging, and it creates a "free" charge on the capacitor. The other part is that electrons are not furnished by the circuit, so the capacitor must create electrons. Perhaps if using pure voltage potential, the electrons are actually furnished from the water molecule. According to Meyer, electrons were stripped to make hydrogen and oxygen. He said the covalent bond "switches off" because the hydrogen atom loses an electron.

Potential energy is really just the back EMF from a DC inductor coil that is rapidly disconnected (Bedini charger) or a spark coil. Spark coils do not put out much current, if any, they just emit radiant energy.

(Radiant energy/back EMF/potential energy/voltage) can perform work. According to Bearden. But only by using a CAPACITOR. The capacitor has a unique phenomena of creating it's own electrons. Since Meyer said we want to restrict electrons in the circuit, it only makes sense that Meyer was using radiant energy and a true capacitor.

Again, I am just speaking of ideas. I think this is very interesting.  ;D

Here is an excerpt from the book - Energy From the Vacuum by Tom Bearden

Figure 9-8 shows a remarkable thing when we charge the capacitor with
Dirac sea holes. Suppose we charge the rightmost plate of the same
capacitor used before, while the leftmost plate is temporarily disconnected
from the circuit (or connected to another capacitor). Now Dirac Sea holes
pile up in the local vacuum connected with the right plate. Whether or not
they interact with the right plate, these positively charged holes attract the
negative ends of the dielectric molecules, again straining the top of the
dielectric molecules to the right. The strain of the dielectric is a force
interacting upon the local vacuum, and it lifts real electrons from the Dirac
Sea (or pulls them from the circuit or other attached capacitor) and onto
the leftmost capacitor plate. The charged capacitor in its supersystem thus
has additional functions that occur. The total Vq joules stored in the
charged capacitor, were this time drawn (converted) from the applied
Dirac hole current and the resulting interaction upon the vacuum, to lift
real electrons onto the leftmost plate.261
261



 
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 30, 2009, 05:16:43 PM
Here is a more scientific explanation of the glowing & sparkling phenomena.

http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GlowExper.pdf



I'm still not convinced water can be "charged"   though..
 edit:    IE.   Dr. Stiffler's claim of pouring "charged" water into a glass, etc.





Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 30, 2009, 06:32:56 PM
That article seems to agrees with my previous post. Though it doesn't seem to go into great detail.

"The anode interphase, however, is dramatically changed by a conductive oxide layer.
Here, in order to sustain ordinary electrolysis reaction, an electron must be removed
from an OH- radical. However, a powerful gradient forms at the anode and may be
sufficient to strip electrons from neutral molecules given a sufficient lack of
availability of OH- radicals in the vicinity of the anode."

The article is saying that electrons tend to be stripped out of the water as voltage is increased above 200 volts (note that only a few people have ever got above 5 or 6 volts on their cell).


Well, the plates charge - not the water. The water is submerged in a voltage field. Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 30, 2009, 06:44:09 PM
Interesting link that Newbie, possibly that's whats occuring, but SMs glowing is clearly not blue, neither was Lawton's. Also, Lawtons was using just ss tubes without the obvious oxide layer build up of the aluminium.

Here's the possible alternative answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoluminescence

Stiffler seemed to be genuinely charging the water itself, so I'll have to put my doubts aside at the moment, because I see no reason to doubt him. However, it would be nice to replicate his results with my own experiment, but I've still not yet achieved this with a 1.5Kv EHT supply.  Mind you I've only been giving it minutes at a time up to now.

Let's hope Stiffler's website link is back up soon for you to have a gander.

SM

You're doing some very interesting work, but I personally feel you're overly reliant on what Meyer said, which could be throwing a spanner in your works.

Quote
The other part is that electrons are not furnished by the circuit, so the capacitor must create electrons. Perhaps if using pure voltage potential, the electrons are actually furnished from the water molecule. According to Meyer, electrons were stripped to make hydrogen and oxygen. He said the covalent bond "switches off" because the hydrogen atom loses an electron.


You stated that you're only throwing ideas about, fair enough, and obviously you give Meyer far more credibility than I ever would, but just how do you make hydrogen and oxygen from stripping electrons off a water molecule?  Answer: You can't, the chemistry does not add up.

I've never ever seen anywhere that will tell you that electrons provide a current through a liquid... apart from Meyer. Everything I have ever read states that the current through a liquid is ionic... never electron.

When water ionises into OH- and H+ we are effectively breaking a covalent bond, but electrons are not pulled off to float about freely as Meyer implies.

You have a wet electrolytic capacitor. The aluminium is one electrode, the ss and the electrolyte together are the other electrode. The dielectric is the oxide layer. The capacitor does not create electrons.  The science behind this is well known and not particularly mysterious.  The longer the voltage is applied, the thicker the dielectric becomes and hence the greater the voltage can build up before catastrophic breakdown. Your cell would however repair itself.

I assume that the aluminium is your anode. The charge building up on the aluminium will therefore be +ve holes, while your sodium bicarbonate will provide OH- ions that will be building up on the oxide layer. Na+ will be drawn to the ss cathode, but no charges will be exchanged because the oxide layer effectively creates an open cct situation.

Check out: http://www.faradnet.com/deeley/chapt_03.htm

and: http://www.faradnet.com/deeley/chapt_05.htm

http://www.faradnet.com/deeley/book_toc.htm#toc

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Goat on July 30, 2009, 07:01:45 PM
I'm still not convinced water can be "charged"   though..

@ newbie123

Do a Google search for "high voltage water bridge" or take a look at Karl Palsness' water bridge video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttN6Q0Q29YY&feature=related

The picture below is from http://www.physorg.com/news110191847.html

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 30, 2009, 07:36:54 PM
Good insights Farrah Day. I'm not an expert on electrolysis, so I can only experiment and observe.

Quote
The capacitor does not create electrons.  The science behind this is well known and not particularly mysterious.

Did you read my post about what Bearden said? He said that electrons will be furnished if you create a strong charge in a capacitor without providing electron current. Doesn't this go against what you said? Obviously our electrical models are wrong. Bearden is trust worthy and has made an over unity device that uses simple magnetic fields to create free electricity.

Maybe for the sake of clarity, we could try to avoid comparing regular electrolysis to high voltage water fracturing, because they certainly have to be two different things.



Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 30, 2009, 08:09:16 PM
Hi SM, I do like Beardon and Bedini, and yes surely some of our electrical models may be flawed, but as far as I was aware radiant energy only manifests itself as energy in a cct where high voltage pulses of very fast decay times are provided.

What voltage and frequency are you pulsing your cell at?

I must admit that I'm not well versed in Beardon and Bedini, but you do seem to me to have a simple wet electrolytic capacitor... I'm not sure why you would think there is more to it than that.  I will however look further into Beardon's remarks.

Quote
Potential energy is really just the back EMF from a DC inductor coil that is rapidly disconnected (Bedini charger) or a spark coil. Spark coils do not put out much current, if any, they just emit radiant energy.

I thought BEMF or CEMF was the term used to describe the emf that opposes any change of emf in an inductor or coil, however slowly this occurs.  This as far as I'm aware is not the same as the 'spike' which only occurs briefly when you instantly - or near instantly - remove (or apply) the voltage. I thought this fast decay spike was the equivalent of the RE pulse you get before current flows when first switching on a cct?  I thought the initiation spike and the fast decay spike were responsible for RE, not BEMF.

Stiffler also appears to be able to charge a capacitor with his SECs from spatial energy, but his capacitor is not electrically connected like yours is.  You're applying a high voltage that initially created electron and ion movement in order to build up the charges, though no power is dissipated because there is not a complete path for current to flow around. 

Quote
Maybe for the sake of clarity, we could try to avoid comparing regular electrolysis to high voltage water fracturing, because they certainly have to be two different things.

I was not aware that anyone was as yet successfully fracturing water with HV, therfore surely we only have the known reactions of standard electrolysis as a foundation from which to work.

Furthermore, if HV/low current gas production is achieved and ionisation is being found to occur - as I truly believe it would at this point - then it may have more in common with standard electrolysis than many think. Faraday's laws will still apply - and I believe will always apply - the difference being that radiant energy might be providing the seemingly excess energy, not the power supply.

Long way to go, but all this experimenting contributes little nuggets of info that may otherwise remain hidden. Even determining that your cell is charging the plates rather than the water is in itself something learned and hence progressive.

Hope Stiffler sorts out that 'water charging' link soon, as it's rather intriguing to say the least.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on July 30, 2009, 08:42:45 PM
SM,  Can you post your circuit?   I'm curious how much voltage you can get into a sealed  'water capacitor'.
 
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 30, 2009, 09:12:30 PM
Yes, Farrah Day your correct. Back EMF is not the same as radiant energy. I should say "collapsing magnetic field" is what creates radiant energy. When a coil of wire is charged, then switched off (disconnected quickly), you get radiant energy.

I am providing 12 volts DC into my primary, and getting at least 5000 volts DC out of my transformer. You can use a transformer to step up voltage, but you must use pulsed DC, not steady state (obviously).

The spark jumps more than 1/8" continously in open air. I cannot measure this voltage, but it looks just as powerful as an automotive spark... It could be more voltage than that, but I want to be on the conservative side.

I am NOT using current, since the circuit I built only puts 12 volt pulses into the transformer, and no appreciable current comes from the secondary. The voltage is radiant energy (voltage potential). This is a "spark coil" configuration.

My circuit might provide for good experiments with other water fuel cells, so I'll put together a little schematic.




Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: dankie on July 30, 2009, 09:43:08 PM
Well I have abandonned this idea of high voltage doing work ever since I heard the Stephen Meyers interview , he says that his system is more advanced than Stans and that he went back to square one . I work from 24 to 120 volts and a very advanced  sine wave oscillator  I built for this special purpose . I can control both frequency and gain seperatly with a single resistor . So If AM or PLL self regulating looping is needed I'm ready , and I think it is . I dont believe square waves or HV will "massage" the water correctly , I think this is a misleading disinfo campaign . Everything resonates with sine waves and this is how radio and radar works , also , getting an effective power transfer with square waves is just not meant to be .

I am now working with the Stephen Meyers method , it is much easier to adjust the impedance matching and electron shift with seperate common components ... No annoying big coils to wind ... some dc offset , the signal and the impedance ringing circuit ... The cell didnt heta up simly because of the electron shift that occurs , there is no real usable power  , only reactive power .

The bifilars and transformers inductance/capacitance were calculated by Meyers ( a radar technician ) . He didnt just wind a random coil and voila it worked  ... He wasnt some NOOB ...

Every object you see from him was calculated by him and made by him , so thats why you get screwed when you try to "copy" without "knowing" .

The best way to solve Meyers is to totally ignore everything about the outside world and everything you considered to be "clues" and these "armchair theorist opinions" like Farrah Day ... A total dependtard with his imaginary friend "Quarktoo" ...

After about a year of reading this crap I have realised something ...Most likely everything you have read on the internet was written by other armchair theorists who themselves read something from an armchair theorists ... So there is a sort of self-feeding vortex of "armchair theorizing" and "depentarding" where people like "Farrah Day" get to "feel smart" .

The internet is full of crap and the crunchy stuff wasnt done by anybody who ever posted about it , especially not something related on how to actually build it , its all philosophy and cause and effect .




Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: wings on July 30, 2009, 11:53:24 PM
http://www.scribd.com/people/view/6820479-dr-ronald-r-stiffler

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16970890/UltraBand-Excitation-Electrolysis

old page

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://67.76.235.52

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: markdansie on July 31, 2009, 02:01:03 AM
@Dankie,
your most recent post made good reading.
However you must realise by now that Stan never had a device working (was charged with fraud) and no one else has a device that can readily be scaled up and beat Faraday's Law
I do encourage you..never give up. i do detect a little frustration.
Mark
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: dankie on July 31, 2009, 02:17:17 AM
Thx Mark ,

I am not frustrated @ all .

I have just moved on to better stuff thats easier to work with than this pulsing VIC with diode method .


Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 31, 2009, 02:51:25 AM
For some unknown reason I seem to be targeted once again... must be my natural charisma and pleasant disposition.

Curious: Markdansie, why now would you suddenly appear out of nowhere to support a dumb Dankie Doodle Dandy post? 

Dankie wrote:

Quote
I can control both frequency and gain seperatly with a single resistor . So If AM or PLL self regulating looping is needed I'm ready , and I think it is . I dont believe square waves or HV will "massage" the water correctly , I think this is a misleading disinfo campaign . Everything resonates with sine waves and this is how radio and radar works , also , getting an effective power transfer with square waves is just not meant to be .

I am now working with the Stephen Meyers method , it is much easier to adjust the impedance matching and electron shift with seperate common components ... No annoying big coils to wind ... some dc offset , the signal and the impedance ringing circuit ... The cell didnt heta up simly because of the electron shift that occurs , there is no real usable power  , only reactive power .

So Dankie, after all your past fanatical support of Stan, you've now decided to switch allegiance and dump poor old Stan for his brother? You who had S. Meyers all figured out and ready to sell the VIC coils to the gullible and unsuspecting... or am I thinking of someone else??

You can control both frequency and gain from a single resistor can you... right... time to take your tablets and return to Wonder Land.  That said, in the 'Outer Limits', they controlled both the vertical and the horizontal...

'Electron shift'... what the hell is that when it's at home???

And once more, 'Fantasy World' rears it's ugly head.

My apologies to those with an IQ above 10 - meet Dankie, someone with an IQ well below 10.

Expect the level of discussion to drop somewhat from here on in. It's take your brains out and leave them at the door, time!

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 31, 2009, 03:17:42 AM
Quote
I am NOT using current, since the circuit I built only puts 12 volt pulses into the transformer, and no appreciable current comes from the secondary. The voltage is radiant energy (voltage potential). This is a "spark coil" configuration.

SM, I too believe that radiant energy may be involved in aspects of Meyer-type WFCs and high frequency, high voltage pulsing, but I also think that we may be in danger of considering all voltage as radiant energy or a source thereof, which it is not.

Spelling corrected for WO. ;)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on July 31, 2009, 03:51:48 AM
Here is my circuit. I have never seen anyone do this before. It is very simple. You can use a frequency generator for the signal input, or you can use fixed 60 hz mains for the frequency input. This has an amazing benefit, because no matter what frequency you choose, slow or fast, the primary coil won't be overcharged, and you won't have excessive current draw. Automotive spark modules have "dwell control" meaning they do not overcharge the coil. Avoid modules that use a resistor on the spark coil, that means there is no dwell control in the module.

Electronic spark modules are designed to create radiant sparks, they have an internal capacitor discharge in them, which collapses the primary coil extremely fast, this fast collapse produces the sharp radiant spike on the secondary. It doesn't matter what type of transformer you use, you are going to get some serious voltage. If you use 12 volts, with a 1:1 non step-up transformer you will still get 400 volts on the secondary winding due to radiant energy! Cool. You won't believe how much power a standard transformer can put out.

This circuit only cost a few dollars to build and it's fun to play around with. You can charge batteries Bedini style, or use it for a WFC.


Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WorldOrder on July 31, 2009, 08:57:20 AM


@Mark

@Dankie,
your most recent post made good reading.
However you must realise by now that Stan never had a device working (was charged with fraud) and no one else has a device that can readily be scaled up and beat Faraday's Law
I do encourage you..never give up. i do detect a little frustration.
Mark

If you investigate a little deeper, you will find the real truth behind that court case.  If he was a fraud, he wouldn’t have been granted the type of patents that he applied for as they require live demonstrations before they are issued. 


@Farrah

The master of how to influence people and make friends. 

For some unknown reason I seem to be targeted once again... must be my natural charisma and pleasant disposition.

You, sir, are your very own worse enemy.  You even find a way to argue with people who agree with you.  You are just a professional quarreler.  You are the only one I know who can have a one man rock fight and lose.  Is your need to feel more intelligent than everybody in the world insatiable?  This syndrome originates from insecurity, by the way.

For someone who finds no (or very little) credibility in Stan Meyer, you sure spend a lot of time trying to discover his secrets.  Again I will state, there is no way he could have ever been granted the type of patents that he applied for unless he proved his WFC to the patent office, period.   To label Stan’s WFC a hoax is to implicate the U.S. Patent Office as an accomplice.

Then again, there’s Farrah the most intelligent human on the face of the earth:

SM, I too believe that radiant energy may be involved in aspects of Meyer-type WFCs and high frequency, high voltage pulsing, but I also think that we may be in danger of considering all voltage as radiant energy or a sourse thereof, which it is not.

The correct spelling is “source”.  Not “sourse” (unless the queen’s English allows this sort of thing).  Really Farrah.

You don't possibly think that some poor people have a poor attitude because they have bugger all to start with and do not have the money for a decent pair of shoes, while rich people have it all handed down to them on a plate from daddy and want for nothing?

Glad to hear you're taking a sabatical... take your time... no need to hurry back. Also suggest a brain transplant while your away.

Hugs and kisses, Farrah.

The correct spelling is “you’re” instead of “while your away”.


And once more, 'Fantasy World' rears it's ugly head.

My apologies to those with an IQ above 10 - meet Dankie, someone with an IQ well below 10.

Expect the level of discussion to drop somewhat from here on in. It's take your brains out and leave them at the door, time!

The correct spelling here is “its” instead of “rears it’s ugly head”.

For someone who loves to jump on other people for their spelling errors in your quest to tear others down to elevate your insecurities, you are guilty as well.  You are not a legend in your own time.  You are only a legend in your own mind.

@Peter

Then there’s Peter who wasn’t here to spread disinformation…he simply doesn’t know any better.    That’s why he was and still is watching this forum in hopes that one of you will give him the ideas he can pass along to his electronics guy to build.  All of you get to help Peter and he doesn’t have to reciprocate.  The catch is, he must control the direction of this discussion in order for him to profit from all of your insight(s).  He only knows how to take…he gives nothing, but in the case of Peter, this is a good thing.  Just thank god he’s stingy and selfish or he could really lead a bunch of you - in detail - to a costly dead end.

He tried to play the role of the great and powerful Wizard of Oz by stating that it was he that discovered the resistor flaw in Dave Lawton’s circuitry until someone much earlier in this thread busted him by revealing who really figured this out.  And yes, it was in reality Ravi who figured this out.  Not Peter.

He doesn’t share his findings because he’s trying to work a one way deal.  A scheme in which all of you are tricked into helping him solve his problems while he tries to portray himself as confidant and not needing any assistance.  If he had Meyer figured out, he wouldn’t be here.  He really thinks he’s going to sell his junk to the oil companies but they are much smarter than Peter’s electronics guy and they are glad he is headed in the wrong direction with the Sonics that he is using.  Peter is unknowingly one of their greatest allies…he’s just too ignorant to know it.  But then ignorance is bliss ;)

Last but not least, notice this post is unedited.  It’s on purpose and not by accident that I referred to you as a man, Farrah ;)

Regards,
W.O.






 
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 31, 2009, 12:28:41 PM
Wow, we've got another live one here!

Are you related to 'lower case' Wilby by any chance??  He's an educated idiot too.

Quote
For someone who finds no (or very little) credibility in Stan Meyer, you sure spend a lot of time trying to discover his secrets. 

It's the science that interests me... not Meyer.

Quote
Again I will state, there is no way he could have ever been granted the type of patents that he applied for unless he proved his WFC to the patent office
, period

Just check out some of the things that have been granted patents and you will soon realise this is a bullshit statement.

Do you really think that Meyer's WFC would have been thoroughly scrutinised by anyone that knew what they were doing?  If anything I think that Meyer provides great examples of how you can patent an idea.

When you talk of proof, what in your mind constitutes this proof?
Are you saying that it was enough for Meyer to walk into a patent office, plonk his WFC on a table, plug it in and, voila it produces gas, so it must be working as he states. Patent granted

Or are you talking about real proof whereby it would have needed to be scientifically scrutinised by someone with the relevant credentials, with voltage, current and gas output carefully measured in controlled tests?  Do you really believe this is what happens in the patent office?

The word 'naive', springs to mind... gosh I hopes I spelt that right!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: MasterPlaster on July 31, 2009, 12:55:20 PM
LOL :D

The word 'naive', springs to mind... gosh I hopes I spelt that right!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: georgesip on July 31, 2009, 01:40:26 PM
thanks to all.
it's time to leave because this kind of bullshit i can have at any corner.
it does better to me to sit and watch spongebob with my little one (6)
 >:( >:(
george
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on July 31, 2009, 04:11:30 PM
For some unknown reason I seem to be targeted once again... must be my natural charisma and pleasant disposition.

LOL, you have your own phenomena of hateful followers! Just goes to show, you reap what you sew...

C'mon George, it ain't that bad. That's exactly what a forum is, a virtual street corner. Any one can come here and say anything they want. We get all kinds of people here, just take a look around. If you are looking for educational information in these public archives, your gonna have to search a bit harder and weed out the non pertinent.

Where does creativity fit in with science?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Gauss on July 31, 2009, 09:14:37 PM
Well, look at the picture.... :)

Mechanic construction, ultrasonic resonators, water mist instead of WFC, concentric cones, soft spacers etc.

Then have a look at GEET and Leo Umila. I tell you what, Stan Meyer did many things but his WFC was abandoned for a reason(temperature dependency of all ultrasonic resonators etc) and the WFC is just a small part of a water engine and much easier paths exist..
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WorldOrder on July 31, 2009, 11:15:06 PM
@Farrah

The word 'naive', springs to mind... gosh I hopes I spelt that right!

No, unfortunately that is incorrect.  The correct spelling is “spelled” instead of “I hopes I spelt that right”. 

Don’t worry.  Just a couple more years of night school and you should be at a 4th grade reading level.  The hard part is going to be when you try to qualify for the loan to pay for all the psychiatric care that you need.  Good luck with that.

Wait a minute!  Don’t tell me!  You already knew everything I just stated, right?     
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on July 31, 2009, 11:53:57 PM
lol :D
Quote
No, unfortunately that is incorrect.  The correct spelling is “spelled” instead of “I hopes I spelt that right”. 


Guess you're a very gullible educated idiot then.

Curious Wilby, do you or your alter ego ever actually get involved in the topic of these threads or is your involvement always solely to scrutinise the grammar and the user and then write an essay about it? What a plonker.

At least your alter ego has discovered the 'Caps Shift'.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WorldOrder on August 01, 2009, 01:24:50 AM
Curious Wilby, do you or your alter ego ever actually get involved in the topic of these threads or is your involvement always solely to scrutinise the grammar and the user and then write an essay about it? What a plonker.

At least your alter ego has discovered the 'Caps Shift'.

@Farrah

This quote had something to do with science?

Oh Brian... Oh dear. Brian, Brian, Brian... are you related to nitinnum by any chance?

If not, there's a match made in heaven!

This quote was something other than a personal putdown?

BEP, don't you mean, 'from all angels'?  ;)

Ooohhh... I like a nice thick broth!  Atlantean, little green men broth with a sprinkling of electron water-rock... oh, and a dash of negative magnetism for me please.

Ok.  This had nothing to do with putting someone down:

And the madness continues...

Very poetic as always GK... absolute load of old bollocks as per usual... but nevertheless a very poetic load of old bollocks.

You think I stand against new ideas and open-mindedness? Wrong GK, I simply stand against the insanity that is the likes of nitinnum.

Science as we know it may not have all the answers but you can't simply discard it and expect people to except the wild and childish fantasies of some crackpot who believes that Atlanteans fueled so-called 'flying war-saucers' from the charged water in pyramids. 

GK, you're defending a person that believes he was an angel in a former life - don't you even feel the slightest bit silly?

Will you people ever get real?

Wait!  Here’s something of real benefit to the study of science:

Sounds like an invite to me nitty!

You must get a real kick from posting this stuff nutty... why do you do it?

I just knew that angels and pyramids would arise sooner or later...!!

This is not about helping mankind or saving the planet, it's all about YOU, YOU, YOU!

You call me closed-minded, but infact you long ago seemed to have closed your mind to science and reality.

So what else is occurring in Wonderland today? Is the Madhatter popping in for tea and biscuits?

And as far as being helpful goes, anyone who replies to quash your ridiculous gibberish and utter garbage is, in my eyes, being helpful.

Can I just ask anyone looking in: What have you learned from this post?  (apart that is from the obvious fact that nitty is not the full ticket).

Ok, here’s a case where you explain the complicated issues of science:

Lumen, it's nice to see that at least someone else around here possesses some common sense.

Nutty obviously has numerous like-minded followers that also exist in Cloud Cuckoo Land. For these people, who go through life without exhibiting an ounce of common sense, reality must be a funny place. 

Nutty I don't think anything you have ever posted is actually based on any real science or verified facts. It's all a fantasy, figments of your imagination that real science would destroy in a heartbeat, hence you avoid real science like the plague. No actually, you don't even know what science is do you?  You seem to have the pre-science mental age of a 5-year-old.

To actually say it's all in your mind and admit that you're just a lazy bum... but that you know it will work because you can 'see it in your mind' is just about as absurd as you can get.  The reality of things is that you're a mentally unstable dreamer living your own little 'Harry Potter' existence aren't you.

And you know this how...?

There are some serious retards frequenting these forums, but you nutty, set a whole new standard, you take the mentally challenged to a whole new level... you should be proud of yourself.

Tell you what I see nutty. I see a very troubled, unstable mind and a very misguided individual.

Get some help before you completely flip your lid and your new world exists within a straitjacket!

PS. For a long time I gave GK the 'benefit of the doubt', but now it is clear that he, along with his poetic words, has regressed totally to the darkside... UFO's, crop circles...

I could quote some of your spelling and grammar correction posts next if you’d like? 

I think it is very amusing that you don’t practice what you try to preach.  This is why I decided to give you a good dose of your own medicine.  You bring an expanded definition to the word hypocrite.  I hope you don’t mind, Farrah.  I‘m just calling a spade a spade ;)




Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on August 01, 2009, 10:46:55 AM
I don't mind at all Wilby. In your own inimitable way at least you answered my question.
Guess I must be the highlight of your days... how sad.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on August 01, 2009, 07:01:45 PM
Guys, here is how NOT to make hydrogen!!

I am all about progress!!! I have figured out about 150 ways of making ZERO hydrogen.

12,000 + volts, ionized air through a current blocking spark gap, 30,000 Khz AC and ZERO hydrogen...   ;)

See video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2ftVp8CefU


Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: dankie on August 01, 2009, 10:13:39 PM
fastimports3 seems to be doing something special .

check out his youtube addy
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Xaero_Vincent on August 01, 2009, 11:15:30 PM
supermuble,

400 volts doesn't really mean anything unless its still 1.5 amps.

If there is really radiant energy here then the output wattage must be greater than the input.

Have you done these measurements?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on August 02, 2009, 12:49:23 AM
Does any one have any references to describe Radiant Energy? What I found was that Radiant Energy, Orgone, Scalar, Longitudinal, Dark, etc. are all the same energy. If I have my Bedini motor running, how do I measure the Radiant Energy?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on August 02, 2009, 02:00:00 AM
Does any one have any references to describe Radiant Energy? What I found was that Radiant Energy, Orgone, Scalar, Longitudinal, Dark, etc. are all the same energy. If I have my Bedini motor running, how do I measure the Radiant Energy?

Excellent question!!     Lots of people speak of "radiant energy", but does anyone really know how to measure it?   How can one measure "radiant energy" and differentiate it from electrical energy?

According to Wiki,  radiant energy (RE)  is just EM energy... a stream of photons from  the sun, from RF, etc ...    But I'm assuming  some people think there might be something else at play. (another from of RE) which is why I'm using  quotes.

If  there is some other form of "radiant energy" I would assume someone could at least measure it.



Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on August 03, 2009, 10:13:48 PM
My understanding is that voltage potential is radiant energy. Tesla came up with this name for non-current voltage.

Static electricity is radiant energy. Radiant energy is just static electricity that flows when current is NOT flowing in a circuit. They call radiant energy "negative energy" because it behaves the opposite way of current, and cannot heat up the wires. Radiant energy enters INTO a wire, where as normal current tries to escape the wire, and heats the wires. Radiant energy is always there, but sharp changes in magnetic fields draw in more of it.

You CAN measure it, but only if you hook it to a capacitor that has no load on it. The capacitor converts the static electricity to regular "positive energy". The capacitor will charge up to the maximum level of radiant voltage potential you are creating. (You will want to get a high voltage capacitor, otherwise it will charge up between 200 and 2000 volts, and it could explode.

Most small Bedini chargers only put out 200 to 400 volts, so you should be ok with a 400 volt capacitor.

Otherwise, if you try to measure it directly, then you will need an oscilloscope because the radiant energy occurs so quickly, your regular volt meter won't register it. The spikes on the oscilloscope may not be accurate, but it is the closest thing we can get to seeing it.






Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on August 04, 2009, 06:14:11 PM
Here are pages 51, 53 and 54 from the Bearden-Bedini book "Free Energy Generation - Circuits and Schematics." This book gives some simplified information about radiant energy. I scanned some of the pages.

This information is in regards to the Bedini "radiant" charger invention.

See the 2nd part of the 2nd page, where it talks about "negative vs positive" energy. Pretty cool. 

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on August 06, 2009, 08:14:49 PM
If voltage potential  was 'radiant energy'  (and not electromagnetic radiation) ... Where does the work (current) come from?    It's pretty easy to show and see  that stationary electric fields,  and voltage potential alone will not do work..   There needs to be current, or changes in the electric fields (ie inductive charging).


Bearden is all pretty much pseudoscience  theory, with no experimental evidence or measurements afaik...    I've read his theories on how to extract the 'voltage' (spike) potential out of a coil, to perform work.   This is just nonsense.


Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on August 07, 2009, 03:43:03 AM
You are right to some extent, I think Bearden needs to build more devices to prove his concepts. But overall I believe his ideas are very sound.

Electricity has no mass - it has no weight, hence it does NOT require PHYSICAL ENERGY to move it around. This is where the books go wrong. They say that electricity comes from "force fields" but it actually comes from "force free fields." Electricity comes from "potential" fields that have no force, and no mass behind them. They only create energy when these fields react with mass - in an electric circuit for example.

Electricity is created by moving weightless "force free" fields of energy. When the fields interact with something that has mass, you get electric current. The attenuation and collection of the underlying zero point energy requires ZERO physical energy. This is why energy is supposed to be free.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on August 07, 2009, 04:24:36 AM

Quote
Electricity has no mass - it has no weight, hence it does NOT require PHYSICAL ENERGY to move it around.

Moving electrons  in a wire is pretty much what electricity is, so I disagree...



Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 07, 2009, 06:15:54 AM
Moving electrons  in a wire is pretty much what electricity is, so I disagree...

are you suggesting the electron is a discrete particle? and i suppose you assume maxwell's equations to be complete also?
have you seen these"electrons"? do you have ANY evidence they  "move in a wire"? noooo, you haven't  ::) moron
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on August 07, 2009, 04:22:29 PM
Wilby!

Nice to see you again!

"You are ignoring this user. Show me the post."

Lol...

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on August 07, 2009, 04:35:00 PM
SM,

If you want to apply quantum physics to electricity  you might look into phonons.   This might be exactly what electricity "is".     

But I don't think electricity is as mysterious as you make it out to be.    It's pretty well understood, I think.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: supermuble on August 07, 2009, 05:02:12 PM
Electricity is easy to experiment with, and it is easy to create. I do agree. However, the books teach the magnetic fields incorrectly. They also teach the COP of systems incorrectly, invalidating over-unity machines. 
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: newbie123 on August 07, 2009, 06:14:31 PM
However, the books teach the magnetic fields incorrectly. They also teach the COP of systems incorrectly, invalidating over-unity machines.

I've heard others say this as well.  However, I'm yet to see anything "real" or scientific that says otherwise.     I think scientists have a pretty good grasp on magnetic fields as well..   If they didn't,   they'd have a hell of a time building the Large Hadron Collider,  containing positrons, etc..

Have you seen any scientific experimental evidence that shows they're missing something?   IMHO, nuclear fusion is the only usable OU power source.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 08, 2009, 01:22:54 AM
The key lies in transformation ... yes perhaps certain things have been missed and I am the last person to underestimate the power of pure voltage (even if the current is very small to virtually non-existent) .... I had a while problems visualizing it for myself ... maybe it was ignorance, or maybe it was perhaps that I never had it properly explained to me ... the way I view 'Voltage' now is in the form of a "sinusoid curve" which gets larger spikes the higher the curve reaches above / below (depending on if AC or DC) the center line and current I would describe as something less visual / real (I believe current to be a pure waste of energy) and the velocity with which those spikes are produced ... although my findings thus far are that the spikes are what do the work - not the velocity at which they are fired ... thats also the background which leads me to believe that we are being fucked over by our electricity companies. I do believe current / current requirements were only put into place in oder to make electricity measurable hence billable ... the potential energy still lays in the voltage ... that is key in this matter because if you're running just voltage / radiant energy it isn't really measurable and would not be feasible for the electricity providers to do that (or they really have no proper understanding of what is going on themselves). Another possibility why the truth behind the energy that makes up the human soul / spirit or whatever you wanna call it has never been defined, we do have voltage occurring in our bodies - not current and yet ... just this voltages is what gives us the abilities we have and thats quite a lot - in a manner of speaking we are energy producing machines and perhaps are ourselves the best example of over-unity. Anyone got a counter-argument - bring it on :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on August 08, 2009, 01:59:10 AM
Hi Peter! Transformation? From what to what? What is transformed and what is it transformed into? I'm not really sure of what you are writing, so, I have no counter argument. Not that I want to disagree with you, I just want to understand your words better. Just communicating ideas and theories can be a struggle when we have different meanings for certain words.

SM, I took your advice and started reading Bearden's book "Energy From The Vacuum". Just the intro is a book in itself! What I have read so far is enlightening. Thank you! I have never read a book so dense with information...

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 08, 2009, 02:09:26 AM
RE: Transformation
Ok ... perhaps I have not made myself explicitly clear, ok here is a mechanical example which is also (logically) applicable to electricity / voltage potential: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=8QD2Whs_LxA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=8QD2Whs_LxA&feature=related)

but of course - such a 'transformation' even when displayed to the general public, companies, governments will be denounced as impossible or fake because it has always been taught as impossible that you can ever get more energy than you are putting into a system ... you see - there is always an easy way to explain things - in this case our dear friend Mr. Campbell is utilizing a naturally occurring form of energy commonly known as 'gravity' and I can confirm - he is full on the money in this matter ... unfortunate that no one will ever believe him ... what a waste :(
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on August 08, 2009, 03:05:35 AM
Thanks for the clarification Peter. Here are a series of videos from Dr. Stiffler showing an electrical version of the video you linked to...

http://www.youtube.com/user/MRH2O2  "Finding Spatial Resonance series"

IMO, this experiment of Dr. Stiffler's is based from the same tech of Stan's devices. Although, Stan called it "Universal Energy" instead of Radiant Energy or Scalar Energy and Stiffler calls it what ever it is he calls it. He uses uncommon descriptors of technologies developed throughout the last century. All these different naming schemes make it confusing, but, thanks to people like Stiffler, we can replicate the works for a hands on experience that will work and help teach us the fundamentals of this energy potential. Yes, Newbie is correct that currently Radiant Energy is pseudoscience in the eyes of mainstream science. Oh well, from what I see and hear, this energy potential is real and needs more investigation.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 08, 2009, 02:46:27 PM
I agree HB ... however, although we have a large scientific community there are very few select individuals of us who will actually go the extra mile to investigate new phenomena either because of lack of funding and/or equipment, doubts, other people telling them that such things are nonsense and putting them down etc. you know it's a tough call - not to mention the worry about being ridiculed by others or laughed at after the first few experiments fail ... well I luckily don't care enough about what other may say or think about what I am doing - I just go do it anyways even if it possibly could lead to my demise or the demise of an entire building lol
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design. Resonance
Post by: TheCell on August 08, 2009, 08:22:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_jTihosQ3g

You got to increase your gas output by resonance.
First its the mechanical resonance of the tubes in water.
The outer pipe is adjusted to resonate with the same frequency as the inner pipe.
(Simply cut away a piece like it's done with a organ pipe)
Notice the mechanical resonance frequency in water.
Now your cell in water is a capacitor. If you put it in series with a coil, adjust the coil so the resonance of the LC circiut will be equal to the mechanical resonance frequency. Now very less energy is needed to resonate the cell mechanically itself.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 08, 2009, 11:21:00 PM
Thanks TC but I already made my mind up - mechanical resonance will not cut through the math on this one, it's a common misconception because you are dealing with a dielectric ... mechanical resonance will have little or no effect on it without the proper voltage potential - voltage is the most powerful actuator because even without the current - the higher the voltage is the higher the frequency 'curve'  ... now yes it might have some benefit if you add mechanical resonance to the voltage potential but thats the some total because even Stan Meyer's cell is not even a resonant circuit / system ... thats a diversion from the truth - but if you want  to stick to your guns, go right ahead I will not try to stop you - I just know you'll be wasting a lot of your time ... from now on I am cutting the use of current altogether in my system and applying only pulsed HV fields to the pipes ... no need to reinvent the wheel - however it can be drastically improved. Anyone? Any counter arguments?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: dankie on August 08, 2009, 11:28:35 PM
You know that game bash a Mole ?

I say lets play bash a Quarktoo , where is Quarktoo lol ?

Look @ this funny thread .

There is link to aweoms videos in there .

I also have an awesome circuit coming up for  "serious" experimenters , even fastimports was interrested by it .

http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1323

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 08, 2009, 11:34:22 PM
Oh yeah of course I will go after all the findings I made on my own (and truthfully I did not disclose them all) and give $250 to some guy who thinks has figured it all out lol ... I don't think so ... spare me ... anyone wants to go for this is their own problem, not mine ... I stick to what I got and I am moving on my own tracks, to much bullshit out there ...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on August 09, 2009, 12:30:35 AM
Building a resonant transformer is not as hard as it seems. It just takes the right person to show you how to go about doing it. Have a peek at this video and maybe check out some of his others too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xefg-EfC4Q&feature=channel_page

There, wasn't that easy? I like the light bulbs! Makes it easier for those of us on a budget. Now look at a Tesla coil... It's also a resonant transformer. Electrical resonance is only half of the picture though, There is a resonance between the plates too.

The tubes IMO, are not tuned. Stan also used plates for the second demo cell. It is possible the outer tube was slotted for matching the mass(weight) of the inner tube. Slots are not used to tune tubes when they hang like a wind chime. Slots are used for air passing through the tube like a flute. 42.8Khz does not magically disassociate water nor does any particular frequency. As far as I know, most of the tuning is dependent on the gap space.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 09, 2009, 12:38:08 AM
Thanks HB ... much better than the last explanation given by TC ... closer but not quite there yet but it's getting there :) Just look at my last post ... the one following TC's post ... now thats the truth to the whole matter, resonance is effective in mechanical matters not in electrical ones. And just to shed some more light on the matter, the pulses that stan meyer used were not to create a resonance, they are in there as a precautionary measure, so the gas in the cell does not get set off prematurely ... thats the some total of truth to the 'resonance mystery' in the stan meyer cell. Any questions?  :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: dankie on August 09, 2009, 12:59:56 AM
Fastimports3 definitly has some interresting videos .

Hes mixing square waves with AM AC noise .

He definitly has the experience baggage adne credentials IMHO , he is "serious" , one of THE best .

Most videos are noobish seriously...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 09, 2009, 01:18:46 AM
Hey Dankie ... thanks a lot for your input but I am afraid you hit the wrong thread and pardon my lack of graciousness but I really think you gotta go get lost and go follow whatever you believe in ... unless you got something interesting / important to say (pertaining to topic) and/or contribute a comment on posts made within this thread (positive or negative) you really gotta take a hike and perhaps maybe go fuck something or the other or at least yourself (most likely). I'm sorry guys this dankie dude is getting on my last nerve and I had a few drinks and I am not to pleasant right now and I am known to speak my mind when provoked.

P.S. I don't care if he is a senior member and/or has posted more than i did in the past either ... that means nothing to me.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: dankie on August 09, 2009, 03:46:09 AM
Hey Dankie ... thanks a lot for your input but I am afraid you hit the wrong thread and pardon my lack of graciousness but I really think you gotta go get lost and go follow whatever you believe in ... unless you got something interesting / important to say (pertaining to topic) and/or contribute a comment on posts made within this thread (positive or negative) you really gotta take a hike and perhaps maybe go fuck something or the other or at least yourself (most likely). I'm sorry guys this dankie dude is getting on my last nerve and I had a few drinks and I am not to pleasant right now and I am known to speak my mind when provoked.

P.S. I don't care if he is a senior member and/or has posted more than i did in the past either ... that means nothing to me.

Sorry lol , I was @ a barbecue @ my girlfriends house , when I saw this I started laughing .

No this isnt the wrong thread , this is a Stan Meyers . Ive read all of these .

Theres something called forum "arm-chair-ers" and theres serious "experimenters" . This "Dankie dude" has been throught it all and sure in hell knows ALOT . Every questions you wondered I asked myself the same , every problem you faced I found the solution . That francobizz video is old , its nothing trust me , just some lawton replication .

Once you know that difference you can move along  , dont bee noobish now ,

I've only been be reading this crap for years now , bla bla bla bla .... So much bla bla bla ... Not enough "experimenting" .I wasted too many hours of my life reading this crap and watching people who "explain" the inner workings of a Meyers cell .

Its a fight against time remember ...

once you are tired of monkey-ing around installing magnets , I have the answer to meyer for 350$ haha , and its for real .
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on August 09, 2009, 01:57:38 PM
So-called armchair posters are no worse than blind experimenters.  Though typically lacking in practical experience, armchair posters often apply far more grey matter to the issue than the blind experimenters who blunder along without giving any consideration to controlled experiments, and who do not know how to interpret results even when they have them.

Armchair posters often proffer very valid information and can provide valuable comments, which sadly are often simply ignored by so-called hands-on experimenters.

Logic dictates that a balance has to be struck between the two.

I'm not really sure where this thread is headed, because while those of you believe that voltage alone can pull water apart (into what exactly?), it is clear that no-one possesses the necessary chemistry background to even hypothesise on what interactions and reactions could possibly be happening at molecular level for this to occur.

Rather than blindly experimenting as most people seem to do, it is far better to devise specific experiments to prove or disprove theories and so provide valid arguments.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 10, 2009, 12:53:39 PM
Ok Farrah Day has definitely a point there, I agree ... and I am trying to draw a balance of hands-on, blind & armchair experimenters ... generally nothing wrong with neither kind - however then there is the 4th kind which just adds answers / topics to a thread which really have nothing to do with the actual experimental subject matter ... and thats normally what annoys the crap out of me :)

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 28, 2009, 01:09:37 AM
Quote
Its a fight against time remember ...

once you are tired of monkey-ing around installing magnets , I have the answer to meyer for 350$ haha , and its for real .

Dankie ... hmmm ... thats a really tempting offer but one thing does not add up with it lol ... if the answer you have is so true and so real you would not be here. Here is the way I figure: a)Either you would be unimaginably wealthy and you could give a fuck about this board and anybody on it - let alone you asking for only $350 for something like this - this would be the best-case scenario (which I doubt would ever happen - to you anyways) or b) you would not be here because somebody took you 6 ft. deep and that somebody would not have to answer to no DA or court or law enforcement for what they did because they would be either directly or indirectly working for the government ...you're a funny guy dankie ... very very very funny ... I'm ROFL about this ...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on August 28, 2009, 08:12:02 PM
Hi Loner

Other than having a play with the genius that is 'Inexplicably STupid' on another thread, I've not input anything of late as most of us seem to be going off at tangets to each other, with no two people focussing on any one issue.

But just to comment on your last post:

Quote
So, the simple solution is, put a large enough voltage across the water to break the bonds, without flowing any current.

Just wondering exactly what bonds you think would break?  Many people seem to assume that if you do this the bonds will break nice and conveniently into 2O and H.  If this happened then of course no current would flow at all but the gases would evolve straight from the water.

I on the other hand I firmly believe that the bonds will break (like a chain at it's weakest link) into OH- and H+. Or normal ionisation as we know it.  And, if it's HV pulsed dc then current will flow if the electrodes are not fully insulated.  If the electrodes ARE insulated then the water will still be ionising, but the ions will have nowhere to exchange charges so no current will flow - nor will any gas evolve.

My current thinking is that the higher the pulsed dc voltage, the more water is induced to ionise, and yes this reaction is effectively caused by voltage alone, however the key is to allow these ions to exchange charges with a source other than the pulsing supply circuit.  A HV dc pulsed across water should create areas of -ve and +ve ions near the respective -ve and +ve electrodes (completely insulated from the water), so in theory all we need to do is provide a conductive path (additional electrodes connect via a wire link?) between the areas of greatest charge difference, between HV pulses and before the ions recombine. This way the OH- and H+ ions will be exchanging with themselves - it will be a closed circuit requiring no additional energy. 

Effectively then we will be using voltage pulses to ionise the water, while allowing the ions to exchange charges with themselves and so evolve gas when doing so.  The greater the pulsed electric field, the more ionisation is induced, the more current will flow in the closed cct - none of which will be seen by the PSU.

Faraday's law of electrolysis will still fully apply in this scenario, but the current would not be being drawn from the power supply.

A further point of note: Some people seem to think that electrons can flow through water by themselves, they do not.  Current flow through liquids is ionic, and unlike electron flow, it's a two-way current; +ve ions going one way and head-on against the flow of -ve ions coming the other way. Solitary, that is 'unbound' electrons do not flow through liquids.

Something else that has played on my mind for years, but which most people seem to simply accept without question is:

What do the ions of an electrolyte that play no part in the final reaction actually do?

It's down to basics I know, but this is where everything is happening. Unfortunately it is also where few people are inclined to look any deeper, simply accepting the simplistic view of high school chemistry.

Electrolyte ions then - what do they do if they do not take part in the final reaction?

Put simply all they do is charge through the water, drawn by the voltage at the electrodes.  What this achieves however is collisions and near misses with water molecules creating electric fields that add energy to the water molecule inducing it to ionise.  To my mind this is where a lot of energy is wasted - better to provide the electric field ourselves and far more efficiently, directly through HV pulses.

Something else that electrolyte ions must surely do, is polarise the electrodes and in doing so hamper OH- and H+ ion charge exchange.

In fact the more you delve into it the more inefficient drawing a current through water containing an electrolyte appears to become.

Ionisation is an endothermic process, so taking energy from it's environment. Yet normal electrolysis containing and electrolyte quickly heats up the water, again emphasising just how much energy is being wasted by chunky electrolyte ions barging and banging their way through the water and more than offsetting the endothermic reaction of water ionisation.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 28, 2009, 08:34:46 PM
Hi Farrah Day :)

Nice to see you here again :) Anyways, I was real curious ... how far did you go down the path as to powering a HV Cell which had isolated electrodes and attack the water just by means of the HV field emitted by the electrodes (which in this case aren't really electrodes anymore - they are rather more "antennas" of sorts which emit a HV field)? The thing is that we cannot ever forget or ignore the fact that the bonds of the water molecule is 90% electrostatic and 10% covalent ... so u be the judge, does that sound like a proper approach or not? ;) ... and I personally am indifferent if it complies with faradays law(s) or not because I don't believe anything written in books about physics. Total non-compliance here :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on August 28, 2009, 09:09:39 PM
Hi Peter

Faraday's Laws of electrolysis are so simple and basic that they really cannot be wrong - I've looked into this a long time ago.

That is not to say that there may not be other ways of evolving H2 and O2, just that if it involves charge exchanging Faraday will always hold up.  Where I think people get confused is they try to involve efficiency, that's not what Faraday's law is about.  A very inefficient electrolyser will be abiding by Faraday's law just as much as a very efficient electrolyser.  That said, it is clear from some of the posts that most people have not even read Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis... let alone understood them!

Regarding my current experiments, things are still on-going.  So still dabbling with different methods at present, but finding it very hard to not to continually electrocute myself.

I know what I'm aiming to do (I think I've outlined that above too), but playing with HV always takes a little time and care so can be slow going - that and the fact that the kids are on their summer school break at present.

My copper coil around the glass jar is providing me with the most fun, as though the water inside is electrically insulated by the 1/4" glass jar, I can get a 1/2" arc to ground from the water when powering the open ended coil with my ignition coil HV cct.  I'm finding this intriguing and continually devising experiments. If I'm right the water should be being induced to ionise by the high electric field. I've just got to find a method of utilising those ions without killing myself.

Quote
The thing is that we cannot ever forget or ignore the fact that the bonds of the water molecule is 90% electrostatic and 10% covalent ... so u be the judge, does that sound like a proper approach or not?

Not sure what you mean by this, as the water molecule itself is a covalent bond of 2H and O.  But multiple water molecules cluster due to the electrostatic attraction - hence, surface tension and such-like... is that what you were refering to?

Farrah



 
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on August 30, 2009, 11:32:36 AM
Hi Loner

Firstly, I think Peter was talking about the bond between water molecules that cause them to cluster when he referred to electrostatic bonds.  The 2H and O of a water molecule, to the best of my knowledge, forms a normal covalent bond.

Regarding current flow. We seem to be differing on this. According to my understanding, current flow does not have to be electron flow. Any movement of a charged particle/s constitutes current flow. 

I've always understood that current flow through a liquid is ionic, not electron, and two-way, and generally this I believe is the case. Liquid metals such mercury - or any conductive metal in liquid form - might not follow this rule.

There is so little in-depth information about even standard electrolysis to be found anywhere, that I do wonder if anyone truly knows exactly what is occurring at atomic and molecular level.  One thing for sure this chemistry is often taken for granted.

To the best of my knowledge we can forget talking about pure water as such, because as soon as it is exposed to the atmosphere, gases begin to dissolve in it.

Water itself is quite active. Give it a stir and molecules will be moving about for a very long time due to the electrostatic influences of the bipolar molecule - in fact I don't think water would ever become inactive as such - there will always be inter-molecular movement.  From time to time this movement provides enough energy for a molecule to ionise, but this lasts only for a few femtoseconds before the ions recombine. However, a certain percentage of 'pure' water is continually ionising and is the main reason why even 'pure' water will conduct to a degree.

Although only a little gas evolves when electrolysing pure water, it is more efficient than using an electrolyte where it takes a lot of energy to drag large electrolyte ions through the liquid medium - hence the heat.

Anyway, this is what I understand of what happens:

As soon as we apply a voltage across the water, any molecule ionising will then be drawn away from it's ionic partner toward the much greater charge on the electrodes.  The OH- is quite a big ion that travels through the liquid to the +ve electrode, while the H+ (as you say a proton) is a special case. This proton only exists as a single proton for a very short time before it latches onto the nearest water molecule to become H3O+.  The H+ charge then continues to the -ve electrode in a similar fashion to electron current, hoping from one water molecule to the next (actually no. It more likely simply pushes a H off a molecule nearest the -ve electrode, like poking a ballbearing into a tube full of ballbearings and having the end one pop out.

So the H+ reaches the -ve electrode where it takes up an electron to become H and it also finds a partner to become the more stable H2 molecule, and evolves as gas.

On reaching the +ve electrode, the OH- gives up it's electron to become OH. But now there is no longer an extra electron to share. The O no longer has a full complement of electrons in it's outer shell, so too the H. Now there is no reason for the O and H to remain together.

The next process is what puzzled me for a good while as it is not often documented. Originally I thought that the OH would split, with the O finding a partner to become stable O2. But this puzzled me because this would leave H at the anode, and we know that H2 does not evolve here, so what happens to the H atom?

As I now understand it, what occurs here is that once the OH- gives up it's electron, the OH then combines with three other OH to become 2H2O and O2 which evolves as a gas. I do not know enough about chemistry to understand why the OH simply does not become O and H, - and if you find out, let me know - but it clearly does not.

A paper I read on the properties of water stated that at any given time, there is only a certain specific proportion of water self-ionising, which if so, means that we cannot increase the level of ionisation unless we quickly remove the ions as they form.  Hence the closer together the electrodes, the more ions we can capture before they recombine, so allowing more ions to form more quickly.  So if this is true and the water replenishes ions in femtoseconds to maintain an equilibrium, then we are only limited by how fast we can pull the ions out of the water and have them react at the electrodes. 

I've rabbited for so long now that I no longer know if I've replied appropriately. However, as this post is now becoming 'Loner' size  ;), I'll leave it here.
 
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 30, 2009, 07:49:08 PM
Hi FD and Loner,

Maybe it's just me but I do disagree using the word current in association with this type system, because the system itself uses virtually no current (current = Amps) ... at most (at any time) around 80 mA the true work is done by means of a HV field only. This is not a 'inductive' system/circuit - it is purely 'capcitative' :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on August 30, 2009, 08:22:42 PM
Quote
Personally, I consider only "Electron Flow" as "True" current, as "Proton" flow is so much slower, due to the massive amount of physical mass that is in motion.

Lightning is caused by ionisation of the air, the same as a spark gap. I don't think that the current that flows in these cases is electron.

I'm not sure how much slower proton current would be as I believe it uses a tunnelling effect known as the Grotthus Mechanism.  Though it's all relative, the speed of an electron through a conductor is not particularly fast, travelling I understand at around 3 inches per hour!

I also doubt if the OH- ion actually moves through the water solitary as we tend to visualise, but rather latching on to one water molecule, creating something similar to a moving chain.   

Using the tube full of ballbearings analogy to describe electron flow, then if we push an extra ballbearing in one end, we instantaneously have one pop out the other end. But, it is not the ballbearing that we just added to the tube that pops out - that will take time to again pop out the other end if we continue adding ballbearings.

If the proton and OH- ion use a similar mechanism of travel to the electron, then maybe these much more massive particles are not much slower. Afterall size is irrelevant in the ballbearing analogy, and we are only concerned with the charge that each is carrying rather than any specific proton or ion.  If you see what I'm saying. 

If anything, it is likely that moving from one water clusters to the next is what will slow the progress of the proton (or it's charge).

That said, clearly there always appears to be a slight but very perceptible delay between throwing the switch on the PSU and the appearance of gas in a standard electrolyser.

Quote
Hi FD and Loner,

Maybe it's just me but I do disagree using the word current in association with this type system, because the system itself uses virtually no current (current = Amps) ... at most (at any time) around 80 mA the true work is done by means of a HV field only. This is not a 'inductive' system/circuit - it is purely 'capcitative'

Hi Peter

It's all very well saying this, but getting a grip on and fully understanding the basics is always a good idea. It gives you a solid foundation to work from.

And as yet no one has put forward a theory as how we get voltage to produce gases and what reaction this would involve.

Furthermore, I'm not convinced SM's demo WFC on the bench in the video was doing anything exceptional.  They mention he was only using milliamps, well for 500 milliamps, if his WFC was very well designed and efficient you can get that amount of gassing. I was suprised just how much gassing I was getting at well below half and amp from my multitube set up. However, all this bubbling and frothing can be deceiving - it looks like a massive amount of gas, but it's not.  If you hook the ouptut up to a bubbler, as I did when getting visually a similar amount as demoed by SM, I was surprised by just how little gas was actually evolving. 

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on August 31, 2009, 12:02:56 AM
I understand FD ... but if you don't mind me asking - what voltage are you using and please don't tell me it's 12 or 24 Volts - the amplitude of such voltages is way to low to be able to do any serious effects on the water ... you need a whack pile more than this ... my best guess is between 600 and a 1000 Volts. I finally managed to assemble a step-up transformer which produces (much to my dismay) only 537 VDC ... but this might already prove to be enough unfortunately am I still waiting on the switching transistor and the bifilar coils .... oh and see attached pic of my version of the VIC - seems it does what it should do (almost electrocuted myself with them stupid capacitors) LOL
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: Farrah Day on August 31, 2009, 12:59:13 PM
Hi Peter

Right, I'm using a simple 555 timer cct to trigger an automtove coil. Output voltage is around 15KV.

Using the set up shown, the 15KV output of the coil is connected to one end of the hollow copper brake piping coiled around the outside of the glass jar - the other end of the coil is left open.  The water inside then, is electrically isolated by the insulation of the glass. However, if I approach the water with a conductor to earth ground, then I get sparks of around 1/2" jumping to/from the surface of the water - I cannot get sparks off the insulating glass jar.

To my mind this must mean that the high voltage is inducing the water to greatly ionise.  I just need to find a way to make use of this without drawing additional current from the supply.  Which is exactly what I'm experimenting with at present.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on September 01, 2009, 05:44:21 PM
Alright! Pictures!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on September 05, 2009, 06:53:08 PM
Hi HB,

Thanks for joining in the party ... note on the inner pipes they are a tad bit to small from what I can tell - here is a place where you can get the proper dimensions of pipes, it's a tad bit pricey but it's proper pipes and the right material http://www.courtiestown.co.uk/ (http://www.courtiestown.co.uk/)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on September 06, 2009, 12:34:45 AM
Thanks Peter, and a wonderful party it is! As far as the tube dimensions, I followed the diagram below. The length is roughly 16 inches of 304. Compared to the pic of Stan's, it looks spot on to me.

Thanks for the link! Have you purchased from these guys? I don't live in the U.K. which makes the price a little higher for me. Interesting stuff though. That 101 Boyce cell looks pretty cool.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on September 08, 2009, 08:14:17 PM
Hi ya'all :) So, new week has started - meaning I do the 9 to 5 thing again so not much time - missing only a few components, damn I'm so close god damn it :( Need the bi-filar coils - properly wound and a switching transistor which can handle a switching voltage of up to 800 Volts DC @ approx. 0.08 Amps :( ... I have got rid of the spikes in the rectified Voltage by means of them 2 capacitors but still need to soften the pulses so I do need the bifilar coils :( else I'll be eating through a straw for a long time lol
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on February 23, 2010, 05:08:05 AM
final power stage arriving from utah next week ... I am in k-town, germany, this is getting to be exciting after all and for all of u who were hoping for it, big disappointment, I am still alive and kicking :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on February 23, 2010, 05:20:07 AM
current stage, cell powered at 537 VDC, guesstimate for best efficiency between 600 and 800 VDC
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design. Pics
Post by: peterpierre on March 01, 2010, 01:52:24 PM
Powerstage from Utah arrived. Well, this is where I am at the primary and secondary circuits are complete these are the results ... Input: 12 VDC Output: 577 VDC ... Pulse Train to be tested very soon on small experimental cell, am afraid to connect the big one, not just yet, not interested to be pushing up daisies lol
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 04, 2010, 08:56:35 PM
@ Farrah

You know bro, I am aware of Farradays laws about electrolysis and I have to agree, you are a 100% right, however I agree also on something else, as Stan Meyer referred to this 'NOT' bein electrolysis ... and since it truly is NOT electrolysis (not even close) ... what happens to Farradays laws? :) (hint: ... out the window)

P.S. Note to real Farraday (irregrdless if dead or alive) - sue me ... lol

P.S.P.S. @ Farrah ... it is impossible to work with this voltage at such narrow electrode distances  ... if it truly were electrolysis :) it would cause a short :)

One more, Farrah ... automotive coil is volatile and has a limited efficiency when it comes to doing the job ... let alone the fact that the voltage is far to high for doing the job. 15kV ... who were u plannning on tazering with that anyways?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 07, 2010, 04:06:22 AM
What is it with u guys? Now that everything is going the way it was planned u all will bail on me? Well thats just great. Maybe ya'all are just not ready for it anyways, everybody is crying out for change/success but when it's there everybody rolls their tails between their legs and runs ... that sounds just to familiar to me, guess it's gonna be just me on this one, enjoy stickin ur heads in the sand.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design. Pics
Post by: pese on March 07, 2010, 05:29:18 AM
Powerstage from Utah arrived. Well, this is where I am at the primary and secondary circuits are complete these are the results ... Input: 12 VDC Output: 577 VDC ... Pulse Train to be tested very soon on small experimental cell, am afraid to connect the big one, not just yet, not interested to be pushing up daisies lol

Is that this Model ?

 Laboratory power supply EA-PS ...        EA-PS 3016-20B     INPUT: 115V / 230V 50Hz     1     OUTPUT: 0-16V/DC     OUTPUT: 0 -20A     POWER: 320VA     Screw/plug terminals     240x120x300mm        

Gustav Pesé

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 07, 2010, 05:40:33 AM
That is the powersource, yes, however, it is not the powerstage I was expecting from utah, technically you can use anything that produces 12-14V up to 4Amps ... which is not really necessary because this system has nothing to do with amps


P.S. don't get me wrong, this A is great, it lets u designate an accurate amount of power the way u would like to have it ... so yes, it is worth having one of those, but they are expensive (for lack of a better word)

--- not to mention ... heavy
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 16, 2010, 11:05:11 PM
Here some useful info for you guys that might prove quite helpful (unless u gave up that is). So here’s the deal:

Stan Meyer did disclose the right approach in his patent(s) but he switched elements in the drawing around (in Stans drawings, first is the PWM Generator, then the VIC and after that is the chokes and the cell), took me a while to understand why I could not get the results he describes. With other words … the VIC (which is nothing but a series of transformers - in my setup) is first and after the voltage is stepped up then you invoke the pulses, then come the chokes and then the cell. You see, you cannot pulse AC or DC before inputting it into a step up transformer because in order to step up the voltage that transformer itself has a pulsing AC running through it, you either would lose your pulse or the transformers pulse (or both) and get a mess – or rather nothing – so you must step the voltage up to what it will be and then you invoke the PWM generator and then you will get a usable pulsed high voltage DC with a perfect square pulse … another thing also … the so called electrodes, which aren’t really electrodes – must be completely isolated, with those small distances a HVDC pulse will only cause a short in the cell and blow your diode or pulsing generator completely … if u are unfortunate your step up transformer will get hit too, in essence water is the dielectric but it is still conductive in order to be able to use the cell as a capacitor the electrodes must be isolated properly … we do not want the water to conduct any of the energy we are inputting but rather be affected by the HVDC field produced by this energy, in this way the cell will remain cool and we let the HVDC field take over the polarization process without punching the water with current whatsoever and in this way we are ensuring that the water temperature remains the same at all times and therewith the dielectric properties of water will not change during the process.

Any questions? :)

P.S. This is a purely capacitive - non-inductive system and no, it does not violate any laws of physics, it just has been ignored for a long time ... or been debunked or both.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: CompuTutor on March 17, 2010, 02:10:28 AM
How can I read these pages without the pics?

No matter what browser I use here,
huge pics like in Farrah Day's post
make reading this impossible.

(Constantly scrolling left to right
to read each single line of text)



Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 17, 2010, 02:31:05 AM
Odd, hm ... I dunno bro, I guess ask the guy who created the board design aka. founder/webmaster? another possibility, you have either an old computer or just a way to small monitor or u just set it to a very low resolution, also possible. On average any computer today has 1280x800 or higher resolution so I think u would still be ok at 1024x768 but anything less than that (such as 800x600) I'm afraid u be out of luck ... also depends on your OS (at least partially)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 17, 2010, 12:01:29 PM
Blown intake manifold, eh? Wow, how did u do that? LOL ... besides it's not anything to be spooked over, it's not like the engine or the car exploded, crap like that happens all the time to people who buy those ready to buy HHO Cells, which are nothing else but regular 12V electrolysis. I think I found a proper way of coating 'electrodes' it's a tad bit pricey to say the least but I built a mini cell with plates, so the plates are sandblasted and coated with PVC, assembled and then tested with a induction tester (not cheap at all) but basically it increases the voltage until it arches (on purpose) - then you know how high you can go with the cell voltage before all hell breaks loose. Secondly ... my personal opinion ... I think anything from 600 to 800V DC is perfectly sufficient to provoke water polarization, especially with such sml plate / pipe distances, as I had mentioned before - what do you want 20 kV for? planning on tasering somebody? :)

P.S. HV Diode - no problem, but it's not only that, you also need one that can take the hit once the capacitor discharges ... example I step charge it with 600V ... upon discharge those 600V turn into 600A ... u need a really fat heavy duty current diode in order to hold that blast, else you will be collecting ur 1N4007 from all over ur place lol (probably partially be picking it out of ur teeth lol)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 18, 2010, 01:04:37 PM
LOL True, Well look, the thing with the VIOC does work ... the only reason why the other say it does not work is because they go by Meyers drawings, as I mentioned in my last post, Meyer switched places of the VIC and PWM, and trust me on this one when I tell you, the only way you get a proper HV DC pulse is if you first step up your voltage and afterwards invoke the pulses, it cannot work any other way - one good reason that supports my statement, the ferrite core of the toroidal transformer I am using to get up to 600 V DC, supports only and AC current with a 50Hz / 60 Hz Frequency so it brings 24V AC up to 400V AC after which 400V AC are rectified to ca. 570V DC ... the whole stepup process needs a proper carrier frequency to do it's job. Now ... what hapens if you pulse a toroid core which is provisioned to withstand only 50/60Hz with let's say ... 30,000 Hz? ... well ... you will break the damn transformer, you'd loose. So think about what I said it might just have merit ... maybe also because I tried it both ways and the one described herein by me - the latter does indeed work :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 18, 2010, 01:39:43 PM
Look, I will give you the make and A of the stepup toroid in the pic ... its being sold as a 400V to 2x12V 75VA Toroidal Power Transformer: Make: Nuvotem Model: SFB0075-400-12 ... supported AC Frequency 50 or 60Hz .... cost: around $80 (55 Euro) P.S. Manufacturer is 'TALEMA'

So, you feed 24V AC in to the 2 outer pins of the 12V end  (each of the two pins is marked with 12V) the center pin is marked 0 and should not be connected to anything) ... on the 400V end u get your 400V AC ... now you must rectify those into DC and you will get roughly 570V DC after rectifier.

Authors Note: Do not mistake AC Frequency with Square Pulse Frequency ... Pulsed DC not equal AC
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 19, 2010, 03:11:15 PM
Additional Note: Why the setup Stan Meyer has in his patent drawings can not work in the sequence displayed. In order to step up Voltage, it has to be AC, you cannot directly step up DC Voltage without prior converting it to AC. The cell is driven by a square pulsed DC (according to patent but nowhere confirmed) in which polarity does not change and AC is a Sinusoid curve in which polarity does change at the rate of the AC frequency. To combine those two very different kind of forms of electricity and run them successfully over a single toroidal transformer with any amount of success might prove incredibly difficult - I would say - impossible, unless you guys have found the holy grail which would allow you to bypass quite a few laws of electrophysics. So, does anyone here like to disagree with me? Now's the time :)

P.S. Although there is also the marginal possibility that the Stan Meyer prototype was all along a AC type water cell capacitor and that the circuit was never intended to be run with DC ... but either way ... we can try both ways and see what happens :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 19, 2010, 11:17:04 PM
Sure you can do that, however, for the particular setup displayed in stans patent drawings, completely not suitable - it does not give you the desired results.

Ah and:

A very common example is an AC waveform "Riding" on top of a DC signal.  Very commonly used, but along the same concept.  Use a Cap to pull the two signals back apart.  (Yeah, I know, That's old stuff.)

---

That would be a false statement, that is a 6 pulse rectification of AC to DC with residual AC in the DC after rectifier ... by using a cap you merely get rid of the residual AC in your DC which would be very desireable (again, see my last pics ... notice the big capacitor in there right behind the rectifier?)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 20, 2010, 03:15:00 PM
Another cute definition of the term dielectric .. which in our case is supposed to be water, once again hinting on the fact that in order to comply, the electrodes MUST be isolated, it also hints that in this particular occasion, we indeed have to be working with a DC circuit in order to make proper use of the dielectric properties of water ... guys, do not condition your electrodes - isolate them, as of in 'entirely' ... here the definition as reference:

A dielectric is an electrical insulator that may be polarized by the action of an applied electric field. When a dielectric is placed in an electric field, electric charges do not flow through the material, as in a conductor, but only slightly shift from their average equilibrium positions causing dielectric polarization: positive charges are displaced along the field and negative charges shift in the opposite direction. This creates an internal electric field which partly compensates the external field inside the dielectric. If a dielectric is composed of weakly bonded molecules, those molecules not only become polarized, but also reorient so that their symmetry axis aligns to the field.

While the term "insulator" refers to a low degree of electrical conduction, the term "dielectric" is typically used to describe materials with a high polarizability. The latter is expressed by a number called the dielectric constant. A common, yet notable, example is that a dielectric is the electrically insulating material between the metallic plates of a capacitor. The polarization of the dielectric by the applied electric field increases the capacitor's capacitance.

The study of dielectric properties is concerned with the storage and dissipation of electric and magnetic energy in materials. It is important to explain various phenomena in electronics, optics, and solid-state physics.

The term "dielectric" was coined by William Whewell (from "dia-electric") in response to a request from Michael Faraday.

For any additional questions please reference the aricle in Wikipedia.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 24, 2010, 05:33:41 PM
Wow, who would have thought ... not a single post, no reply, no questions, no critics - nothing ... well, I guess not then ...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 24, 2010, 06:08:44 PM
your post only states fact, nothing to comment on?!
probably distilled water is enough to do the isolation though?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 24, 2010, 06:16:33 PM
if you have 2 electrodes (example) with a distance of 1 - 3 mm and apply a High Voltage DC Pulse you will notice very quickly that given circumstances, although distilled - it is quite conductive, it will arch (probably fry your electronics and/or transformer(s)) and a current will flow, at which point it becomes inductive and no longer capacitive ... dry ice would be good as a dielectric, but the moment it starts to melt and has water on the surface it will also start conducting ... so the only way is to isolate :)

Note: For safety reasons (mainly to your electronics and transformers) after proper isolation, the electrodes should undergo a induction test.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 24, 2010, 09:16:14 PM
I once built the Water Fracture apparatus from Chris Eccles, two plexiglass sheets were the walls of a container, cm in width, water in it.
Aluminum sheets were the electrodes, the high voltage pulses came from a timed flyback transformer.
Sometimes it would ark through the whole centimeter (so the voltage must have been > 10kV), but the water didn't change a bit. Since then i'm skeptic of the high voltage water fracturing thing.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 24, 2010, 09:21:35 PM
Well, if u had > 10 kV then the current was probably minimal and also the question comes up, were you pulsing it and how were you pulsing it? ... P.S. the moment it arches it looses it's ability to affect the water, you have to lower the voltage and reduce the distance of the electrodes.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 24, 2010, 09:28:16 PM
here's the patent, i pulsed it exactly as that.
the only thing was the ocassional sparking which shouldn't have occured. and probably the gap was too large, but the voltage was high enough.

okay i guess it weren't 25kV on either side, how would one do that without sparking through...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 24, 2010, 09:34:51 PM
That is the catch, the occasional sparking, it is telling you that the voltage is far to high - P.S. I do believe that the patent mentiones deliberately too high of a voltage, According to my understanding the voltage should be kept from below 1 kV (500 - 600V) up to a maximum of 1.5kV (at the very most) depending on distance of the electrodes, we cannot allow arching to occur, because the moment it arches ur entire HV Field collapses, once that happens u use any polarization effect it may have or have had on the water
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 24, 2010, 09:51:57 PM
Yeah i changed the voltage to a lower value so it wouldn't spark, but the water was still unimpressed.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 24, 2010, 10:17:59 PM
in that case, drop voltage to about 600 Volt DC, another good way of checking how the water reacts, measure the capacitance of your cell. Hey remember those kids building water bottle high voltage capacitors and charging them? Well, they do work ... you do not see an obvious reaction of the water but if u touch a charged one it will hit you so hard that you'll probably walk 50 feet backwards and then land on your ass (P.S. if you have a pace maker - I wouldn't put it to a test, might be your last test) ... so ... fact is, water does react, now all we need to do, is produce the right reaction.

Look here

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make_A_Water_Bottle_Capacitor/
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design. - 1kV PWM Switcher
Post by: peterpierre on March 25, 2010, 12:15:19 AM
Here is a picture of an analog 1kV PWM generator - custom built based on the schematics of Stan Meyer and Dave Lawton. Input :0 - 1000 Volt DC Output: Pulsed 0 - 1000 Volt DC (continuous or with gating) :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 25, 2010, 01:27:24 PM
Did you produce gas with pure voltage?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 26, 2010, 07:16:25 AM
how do you measure the capacitance of your cell?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 26, 2010, 10:43:49 AM
Use a RLC-Meter. Make sure the cables to your cap are as short as possible.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 26, 2010, 10:55:56 AM
So, just buy an LCR meter and connect it to my cell and voila? It will display the capacitance?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 26, 2010, 03:15:16 PM
That is absolutely correct - and please in gods (or whatever elses) name, consider the short distance of the plates / tubes and do NOT forget to make sure they are isolated so there is no possibility for the water to conduct, else you will have some heavy duty arching / possibly damaged electronics / transformers.

P.S. RE: Meter ... I use the protek d460, it is relatively inexpensive (around $100) and has a lot of programmable functions (including Frequency counter up to 1 MHz, backlit display, capacitance and also a RS232C interface to connect to windows computer, comes with software which displays/stores a graph of your readings for print or later reference) :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 26, 2010, 03:20:34 PM
That is absolutely correct - and please in gods (or whatever elses) name, consider the short distance of the plates / tubes and do NOT forget to make sure they are isolated so there is no possibility for the water to conduct, else you will have some heavy duty arching / possibly damaged electronics / transformers.

Are you replying to my question about the LCR meter? Are you suggesting measuring the cells capacitance when the power is applied to it?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 26, 2010, 03:24:13 PM
Yes I am replying to that one and no do not measure with power applied, that would be pointless, the isolation recommendation is for when you energize the cell with HV DC ... then the electrodes should be isolated, but also when u measure capacitance. And as I mentioned above I would recommend the protek d460 meter
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 26, 2010, 03:29:59 PM
How do I isolate my electrodes?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 26, 2010, 03:36:58 PM
Well, for my test I chose to use 2 small stainless steel plates (the big cell is not ready to go yet, to isolate the tubes will be a pretty tough one - technically) approx. 12 x 10 inch I drilled holes in them and got polyamid / plastic screws wshers and nuts to hold them in close equal distance together without causing a short, then I went to sign-o-rama (which is specialized in signs and brought em the plates and told em to enclose the airtight and water proof with thin PVC or plastic or something to that effect) and I should have them back ready for assembly on monday or tuesday :) ... before running them of course I will first use an induction tester ... dry and in water to see if they do not arch or short somewhere and then it's basically ready to go :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 26, 2010, 03:41:18 PM
OK, I get what you mean when you say isolate the electrodes. Back to capacitance... Assuming i can measure the capacitance of my cell with my meter, what do I do with the number I get? What good is it to know what the capacitance is of the cell?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 26, 2010, 03:53:13 PM
well, basiclly, once you have isolated the electrodes from the water it is no longer a electrolysis cell, it becomes in a very real sense of the word a water capacitor with water being used as a dielectric which gets polarized/charged by the HV DC field emitted by the isolated electrodes (they of course no longer are electrodes ... more like ... err ... antennas, I would say?). Now, we use a pulsed HV DC to pulse the field and therewith we agitate the watermolecules (rather than bruteforce them like in electrolysis), the goal is simple - to provoke a resonant vibration in the water molecules between the plates (find the proper wave pattern and frequency) the moment we get them in resonance with the circuit they will have no other choice but to collapse / break apart and voila - end result is exactly that what we have been aiming for so long :) As you can see in the pics on page 20 of this thread, the input is 12V @ 0,01A (1,2 Watt) to produce the 577 Volt HV DC  ... pretty nifty, eh? :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 26, 2010, 04:31:30 PM
Nifty indeed! That doesn't answer my question though about what I do with the number or capacitance I have in my cell. How do I use this number? For example, 9 microfarads. If I need to know this, where do I apply it? Otherwise, what is the point of buying an LCR meter and measuring the cell?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 26, 2010, 04:40:14 PM
It mainly actually displays you if your cell is capable of acting as a capacitor and if it gets a charge ... it will be hard to measure probably because although excellent dielectric properties water can hold a charge only for a short amount of time, thats why we need the pulses hich cause fary chort repetative charges in microsecond intervalls. For example, I use 2 x 30mF capacitors to 'clean' my rectified DC voltage, I know each of these capacitors can be charged with up to approx. 800 Volt DC before it shorts out on me and 'it blows a cap' lol ... in a very real and literal sense ... we do not want to blow those capacitors, however ... we DO WANT THAT to happen in the water capacitor. Have you ever blown up a capacitor? Well, the water capacitor is supposed to do JUST THAT, because at that point the dielectric breaks down, causing a chanve of the amounbt ov volts inputted into Amps ... the dielectric (water) cannot cope with this sudden change so it actually breaks down on a molecular basis and that ist just the result we want.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 26, 2010, 04:46:21 PM
I'll take that as an "I don't know". Nice looking Lawton circuit by the way! Looks beefy! Who custom built it for you?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 26, 2010, 05:36:59 PM
A very good Electronics Engineer friend of mine who is incredibly capable, of course I had to provide a proper explained 'concept' of what it is supposed to do and I had to find the transistor which is capable of handling the pulsing of 1 kV :) and there were some other minor mods / repairs necessary but finally it works and does what it is supposed to do :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 26, 2010, 08:16:56 PM
Nifty indeed! That doesn't answer my question though about what I do with the number or capacitance I have in my cell. How do I use this number? For example, 9 microfarads. If I need to know this, where do I apply it? Otherwise, what is the point of buying an LCR meter and measuring the cell?
Depends on what you want to achieve. If you are bulding a Dave Lawton circuit you don't need to know it. If you want a resonant rlc circuit then you'll need it.

It mainly actually displays you if your cell is capable of acting as a capacitor and if it gets a charge ... it will be hard to measure probably because although excellent dielectric properties water can hold a charge only for a short amount of time, thats why we need the pulses hich cause fary chort repetative charges in microsecond intervalls. For example, I use 2 x 30mF capacitors to 'clean' my rectified DC voltage, I know each of these capacitors can be charged with up to approx. 800 Volt DC before it shorts out on me and 'it blows a cap' lol ... in a very real and literal sense ... we do not want to blow those capacitors, however ... we DO WANT THAT to happen in the water capacitor. Have you ever blown up a capacitor? Well, the water capacitor is supposed to do JUST THAT, because at that point the dielectric breaks down, causing a chanve of the amounbt ov volts inputted into Amps ... the dielectric (water) cannot cope with this sudden change so it actually breaks down on a molecular basis and that ist just the result we want.
do you have a formula for calculating the breakdown-field-density with a watercap? i'd be interested.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 26, 2010, 08:35:16 PM
Ok, let me guess, I know u are not here to compliment me truly on hat I have been up to ... so what is the deal? I have been onto this issue since 2003. 7 years have passed. Yes - there has been success and there has been failure (due to lack of documentation etc. - obviously) but we are used to that, we are after all research scientists, true - in no official capacity, without government backing - but does that really matter to you so much? haithar: why do we name circuits? - it has not even reched it's potential yet.
Look, the way I see it so far, there are plenty of people who have contributed to the solution so far, all I am doing is - narrowing it down, not doing this for fame or to get rich but just a final stand to try and fix things before they go terribly wrong, thats my stand. You may criticize me and my approach all you want and make fun of me but sadly we have gone to far already, only extreme measures will correct this situation, nothing else. Do yout think I am one of those peopng and right than u do ....e who live with the illusion that I'll be around like 'for ever' common .... we know it better than that ... unless u know a person who has been born a ancient time ago and hasn't died to date ... now that would be truly revolutionary LOL .... what is the point you willl ask? We just want to make sense of our short lives we have, we want to produce something which will make it easier and more harmless for future generations ... thats what truly matters ...isn't it? Well I am sorry if I rippled ur pond and stuff but I do have probably a different perspective of wrong and right than u do ...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 27, 2010, 01:27:21 AM
Your right! I did not come here to compliment you, but, I did anyway. I was just so curious as to how you or haithar were measuring capacitance from your cells. I have come to the conclusion neither one of you knows, otherwise the answer would be "You can't measure a WFC's capacitance, or resistance, or inductance." Why you can't is something you'll have to figure out. I thought maybe if I had asked the questions you might have looked something up or actually tried to measure a cell and find you can not. You didn't though... Instead you wrote about... well, I don't really know what you were saying but it wasn't anything to do with measuring capacitance and why a person needs to measure it.

I wholeheartedly recommend both you and haithar to grab an electronics 101 college text book and do some reading and comprehending. I can imagine why there is so much mystery in it for you two. What gets me, is you guys talk a shite load about things you obviously have no clue about. How do you do that? Don't you think there is a smarter monkey out there reading this and knowing you are full of it? That doesn't bother you in the least?

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 27, 2010, 04:20:49 AM
I just ... I am sorry if it sounds bad ... can't wait for that moment where I get to tell everyone 'I TOLD U SO ' look, this has nothing to do with me being a wannabe whatsoever ... many of u have questioned my moves in the past ... oh bad bad pete, he is just about all of himself ... am I now ... gee wiuz ... maybe some people misread me after all ... still that bad as  pete that supposedly is all about himself? I dun think so ... but nice try anyways ... commmon, sound off anyone who has trhe perception that all this has been all alkong about me, I wanna hear it ... please ... don't be nice just speak ur mind. ... I am here - I always have been and alweays will be, I want to hear your thoughts. Please, tell me - how bad of a human I have been and how many unspeakable crimes towards mankind I have commited, I cannnot wait .... fuckers :D ...

Ok. sarcasm away, I did put a fair amount of effort of seeing this trhrou ... sue me if u dun like it ...I will still stand tall, it was not easy and its not like I had any sufficient help because anyone hearing about it was afrait .... are you afraid too ? ...

welll if u r u probabbly should not be alive right now becuase your carreeer went just backwards, in case u did not notice yet ...
(looser)

Do u want to know why I cannot stand your kind? It is simple ... because ya'all are fulla shit lol ...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 27, 2010, 04:45:32 AM
Before you can be able to "Tell us so" you have to tell us first. What you have told me so far is that I should buy an LCR meter and measure my cell's capacitance and even suggested a specific brand and model. Although, you failed to answer my question as to why, which leads me to believe you and haithar are not telling the truth or have no idea and talking out your asses. Some how I don't think you are going to be telling any one anything more than speculation and rumor.

Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 27, 2010, 11:28:39 AM
Your right! I did not come here to compliment you, but, I did anyway. I was just so curious as to how you or haithar were measuring capacitance from your cells. I have come to the conclusion neither one of you knows, otherwise the answer would be "You can't measure a WFC's capacitance, or resistance, or inductance." Why you can't is something you'll have to figure out. I thought maybe if I had asked the questions you might have looked something up or actually tried to measure a cell and find you can not. You didn't though... Instead you wrote about... well, I don't really know what you were saying but it wasn't anything to do with measuring capacitance and why a person needs to measure it.

I wholeheartedly recommend both you and haithar to grab an electronics 101 college text book and do some reading and comprehending. I can imagine why there is so much mystery in it for you two. What gets me, is you guys talk a shite load about things you obviously have no clue about. How do you do that? Don't you think there is a smarter monkey out there reading this and knowing you are full of it? That doesn't bother you in the least?
I hope your post was meant to be a joke.
I told you how to measure the capacitance of your cell. Use a RLC-meter with shortest cables possible and measure while power to the cell is off.
What else do you want to hear?


And i'd probably not post on saturday mornings on 4 am after getting home from a club or whatever ..
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 27, 2010, 01:28:37 PM
I hope your post was meant to be a joke.
I told you how to measure the capacitance of your cell. Use a RLC-meter with shortest cables possible and measure while power to the cell is off.
What else do you want to hear?


And i'd probably not post on saturday mornings on 4 am after getting home from a club or whatever ..

Did you bother to read the instruction booklet that came with the LCR meter?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 27, 2010, 03:31:40 PM
Yes and i still don't know what you are talking about. Why do you think you cannot measure capacitance with a RLC meter?
If you claim that I'd want to know why.

And spare us the "Electronics 101" statement, please.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: sushimoto on March 27, 2010, 07:05:47 PM
@peterpierre

Are you located in germany?

best,
sushi
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 27, 2010, 09:43:15 PM
For the time being - I am. Why?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 28, 2010, 03:52:25 AM
Yes and i still don't know what you are talking about. Why do you think you cannot measure capacitance with a RLC meter?
If you claim that I'd want to know why.

And spare us the "Electronics 101" statement, please.

The meters will give you a false reading. The water itself is the cause of the problem. Any LCR meter is designed for typical capacitors, not water. If you could find a way to be certain of a real measurement, the numbers of the cell alone will matter very little, if any at all. As soon as any amperage goes through the water it's no longer a capacitor. That means to use the cell as a capacitor you would have to use an applied voltage of about 1 volt or less depending on the water.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 28, 2010, 05:19:31 AM
x-actly  HeairBear  ... that is why the electrodes MUST be isolated, in order for the cell to be a capacitor.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 28, 2010, 05:59:29 AM
That's just it, it can't be any kind of capacitor because the dielectric is always breaking down. The isolation helps in a different way but doesn't add capacitance or anything like that. For instance, try to measure voltage of an open cell after the water has settled for a few hours. As you take the measurement, stir the water. You will now see a small EMF generated in the cell caused by the movement of the water since the water molecule is polarized.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 28, 2010, 07:06:36 AM
HeairBear, I do agree, yet u have to see the fact that water can be charged to the point of overload, it just has to be done at the right frequency and it WILL yield the anticipated results. Common, we have come so far already, just let me handle the rest of this :) It'll be good - I promise :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 28, 2010, 12:19:42 PM
The meters will give you a false reading. The water itself is the cause of the problem. Any LCR meter is designed for typical capacitors, not water. If you could find a way to be certain of a real measurement, the numbers of the cell alone will matter very little, if any at all. As soon as any amperage goes through the water it's no longer a capacitor. That means to use the cell as a capacitor you would have to use an applied voltage of about 1 volt or less depending on the water.
Yes that is right, water isn't very isolating at all. However when using distilled water the capacity is measurable [althrough it obviously changes with temperature, water movement, vibrations and so on like you said]. But we were talking about isolated cells in this thread, may it be with a rubber sheet or with a layer of calcium.
I don't see a reason why the resistance of a capacitor should be much lower than it's reactance in that case.

I also don't know how my RLC-meter measures exactly. I see the problems when using direct current to charge a capacitor and measure by this way, but there can be many methods of measuring a capacitance, depending on the equipment available (charge time, discharge time, frequency behavior, circuits for resonance and so on).
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 28, 2010, 10:46:32 PM
More explanation (capacitance and other electronics 101 issues aside), let's go back to water.Why is common electrolysis so inefficient? It probably is because in electrolysis water is used as a conductor. With DC particularly, electricity flows in one direction. How do you expect to fracture the water molecule efficiently when u just use it to conduct electricity? You are not creating an imbalance in the molecule, you are just applying more current and add possibly chemicals to improve it's natural ability to conduct. But it is different when the electrodes are isolated and you leave the amps out (u need them anyways only if you want to use conductivity) and raise the voltage in order to create a HV DC field ... which in turn interacts with the electro magnetical properties of the water molecule (everybody following so far?) ... now quite frankly ... if I was the water molecule and was subjected to a HV DC field, quite frankly I would get pissed and would feel violated ... so there would a definate recation coming from me in response to the HV DC field ... do not underestimate the power of pure voltage, it has quite some kick under the hood. Now once again, water can be polarized but it has to happen in very short successive bursts (hence the pulsing of the field) ... u keep charging and adding to that charge ... well until the water no longer can keep it and yields to the electrical forces ... thats when we get the results we want.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on March 29, 2010, 01:32:16 AM
Which electrode does the current leave from? Stupid question, I know... Just checkin
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 29, 2010, 01:48:58 AM
according to my findings from negative going to positive, however you will always find people who would like to argue that lol

why were u asking? ... nothing travels in my cell ... there is a big 'no current allowed' sign on it lol

... correction ... the only thing travelling is the water molecule being pulled apart from each electrode in a different direction with each pulse train.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 29, 2010, 05:02:57 PM
Hmmm ... no more questions? :)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: sushimoto on March 30, 2010, 12:31:29 PM
For the time being - I am. Why?

I'm just wondering if you know about the activities at the
german fraction of this site:
http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=531
maybe you want to snap in with a chance to meet people physically
in order to get along with the S.M projekt.

Hmmm ... no more questions? :)

Are you familiar with the "meissner circuit" ?
seems to be a easy way to set up an self adjusting LCR without
all that spooky S.Meyer-stuff.

cheers,
sushi

PS:FYI:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l1PfmTheFM
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 30, 2010, 11:45:49 PM
Quote
I'm just wondering if you know about the activities at the
german fraction of this site:
http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=531
maybe you want to snap in with a chance to meet people physically
in order to get along with the S.M projekt.

No I do not, the only people I ever collaborated with in Germany are two select people, one scientist with approx 35 years of insight about the behavior of water and natural energy phenomena and one Electronics Engineer, both are well over my own age but circumstances did let us bounce into one another so we stuck with it, guess it was meant to be this way. I myself hasve been at this matter since 2003 (on and off at times but never gave up) and I take this matter quite seriously, I do not base my findings and or assuptions on any official laws of physics or scientific findings because this would be foolish to do in this matter - if any conventional science would have explained this and/or were useful in any way we already would have had free energy solutions a long time ago. The other two (who most definitely already do know the final answers to the matter already) do not do really anything for me, they speak in riddles, give pointers and make me think "outside the box" and I do appreciate that so there are no clear cut step by step instructions given to me, I work one step at the time. When I know you all will know, am not interested in having busted my ass for 7 years to succeed just for someone to come along and kill me and it all getting lost again.

Quote
Are you familiar with the "meissner circuit" ?
seems to be a easy way to set up an self adjusting LCR without
all that spooky S.Meyer-stuff.

To date I am not certain I would call Stan Meyers findings "spooky". I understand now a whole lot more than I did 2 years ago about the process and most of what my understandings are you already know. It is rather something that I guess Science left out by mistake ... or much more likely - on purpose. The only spooky thing about the matters about Stan Meyer I think is the circumstances of his demise and at this point I will gladly leave it at that - the rest is science at it's best.

Note to Sushi: I did indeed look (just now) at the german thread, they are discussing Ravi and common electrolysis, there is nothing even closely related to what I am doing except possibly the fact that the circuit for pulsing I had custom built is based partially on stan meyer and partially on lawton (of course with quite different specs since the voltage I have is 50 times higher than the average 12V used in common electrolysis experiments and it would fry a standard Lawton circuit)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 31, 2010, 02:33:14 PM
I'm just wondering if you know about the activities at the
german fraction of this site:
http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=531
maybe you want to snap in with a chance to meet people physically
in order to get along with the S.M projekt.

Are you familiar with the "meissner circuit" ?
seems to be a easy way to set up an self adjusting LCR without
all that spooky S.Meyer-stuff.

cheers,
sushi

PS:FYI:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l1PfmTheFM
A Meissner circuit or a similar circuit work fine for ac resonance, but keep in mind that we are looking for pulsed dc. And since there is a blocking diode the circuit won't resonate at all with a good capacitor. The cap would be charged once and then no more current would flow.

The video at the end looks like he did a parallel resonant ac circuit, i think that because
1. he mentions that at resonance the power draw is at minimum
2. the circuit scheme on the website shows a meissner parallel resonance circuit
So he is using current not high voltage. Parallel resonance will have a superelevated current at cap and coil, not voltage.
His production isn't the greatest for 15W, but it's hard to tell from just bubbles how much he is producing.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: sushimoto on March 31, 2010, 03:48:15 PM
Experimenters are always mixing "pulsed DC" and AC
as well as they are mixing conventional electrolysis with the
very basic principle of isolated electrodes aka "WaterCapacitor".
Its almost impossible to tune a hho-cell into resonance and it is
senseless to use "conditioned, coated" Elektrodes for bruteforce electrolysis.

in the lack of distinction lies a major problem of understanding.

Look at this fellow "Guru2You" (using DC BTW)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru8YQ6HUwbU&feature=channel

... still implying to use a HHO-cell instead of using an isolated WaterCapacitor.
@__@
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: haithar on March 31, 2010, 04:48:27 PM
i fully agree with you.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on March 31, 2010, 11:23:02 PM
Quote
Look at this fellow "Guru2You" (using DC BTW)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru8YQ6HUwbU&feature=channel

This circuit shows merit and might prove to be quite useful, however the rest of the info is wrong. DC is also the RIGHT ANSWER ... AC is definitely wrong.

Common guys we can do better than that ... the first youtube video calls it high voltage when you use 52 Volts and non-isolated electrodes ... the second video shows a really good concept however based on 12V circuit ... but that does not really worry me, that can be adapted, just as it was possible to adapt Dave Lawtons circuit to switch up to 1000V DC instead of just 12V DC (how long will it take for you to understand that this has really nothing to do with amps ... just voltage?)... so now we should walk the thin threaded center line and combine all those different views and opinions and we are finally done and over with the work. God ( I am non-religious) I am fucking tired of this shit  and the concept of right and wrong ... let the ones who believe worry about it.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on April 01, 2010, 12:51:20 AM
Who's "We"? You got a turd in your pocket?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on April 01, 2010, 01:05:29 AM
Who is we? ... turd? ... who crapped or peed in ur cerial this morning? Dude, in case u have not noticed, it is not just u and/or me been working on this. Still think 'we' is inappropriate? Well, maybe u should work on ur own then, since u seem to be so superior to anyone else here. Another matter ... would I be here if this whole thing was all about me? ... probably not but I leave you the benefit of the doubt. What's wrong with you man? Didn't get laid last night? Time to get some panocha and enjoy bro ... stop crapping on people just because u feel as a lesser entity. I do value your comments and views, never discredited them (on purpose) you do have a good head on your shoulders and you are not stupid at all, but would you mind just to let us move on with this because thats all we have left? We know you are so superior and allmighty because you are an US citizen and the rest of the world is crap to you, but according to your own constitution, arent we allowed to have a fair chance to give it a shot too, or did u just get frightened about what might happen or much closer as to what is happening right now? We do value yozu as a friend and a member of this thread, and as a member who has made comments and remarks of improvement, but u have to get over ur American attitude dude, else noone's gonna wanna work with u man ... deal with it.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on April 01, 2010, 01:30:41 AM
My attitude towards you is not because of my US citizenship. It's because of your bad taste in words and comments towards others that make you look altruistic. "We can do better" should be "I can do better". It's not up to us to do better for you, besides, we are doing better, you just haven't asked or bothered to look.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on April 01, 2010, 01:48:58 AM
Is that so, Mr. HeairBear? Well, then I am surpirised not to be seeing ur likeness and/or achivement on national TV ...  dude, get real. This is definitely not the job of a crowd that continuously keeps on disgreeing ... WTF is the problem in this picture? (sorry, I will not trying to analyze this ... I really dun have the time to spare)
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HeairBear on April 01, 2010, 02:48:44 AM
WOW! creepy!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on October 28, 2010, 03:24:54 PM
Another kind of odd (but useful - for me) finding in regards to water. I got busy going into the fine details of the process and kind of by accident discovered, that the moment one applies current (example current 5 Amps) to water even for the briefest moment, the resistance of the water shoots up in the unmeasurable resistance (over 100 Mega Ohm) ... you have to let it sit for a long time (by long I mean very long ... hours) until it comes down into a measurable range and then still drops resistance painfully slow - this could be very beneficial. At first I thought this to be the water temperature thats causing it, but I was wrong (I emptied the cell entirely and refilled it with clean and cold tap water, the resistance did not go down by me doing so) ... it seems to have something to do with the actual charge that gets stored somehow on a molecular or even atomic level, kind of like a 'fail safe' almost .... *ponder ... thinking thats interesting*
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: thierrytu on January 26, 2011, 07:50:04 AM
Hello PeterPierre (and all),

I know this thread is a few months old already... but I just read through it all and was wondering if we could continue (or point me to a more recent thread if there is one on this topic).

Your explanations have helped me a lot in understanding the difference between electrolysis and capacitive resonance. In particular, your point about insulating the electrode in order to build up the capacitance of the cell. That was a big eye-opener for me!

I'll wait to see if anyone is still interested in this topic before posting more about my experimental findings...

Cheers,
Thierry
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: thierrytu on January 29, 2011, 03:10:06 AM
Idea for an electrode insulator (plates/tubes/coils):
Epoxy resin mixed with acetone to thin it enough to make a bath.

Any activity on this thread? Any interest or am I wasting my time? C'mon guys... it's hardly the time to give  up :))
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HurstOlds on April 12, 2011, 05:47:11 PM
Hi guys,

It took me two days to read through this entire thread and it has been very informative.  I was wondering if you have any further updates on your progress?

Thank you
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: chessnyt on April 13, 2011, 05:55:14 AM
Hi guys,

It took me two days to read through this entire thread and it has been very informative.  I was wondering if you have any further updates on your progress?

Thank you

This thread has been dead for a while now.  If you want to be a part of threads like this one, the number one HHO research site in the world is located at www.ionizationx.com.  There you will find what you are looking for as it is dedicated primarily to HHO research and Stan Meyer related devices.

Cheers
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HurstOlds on April 14, 2011, 07:43:47 AM
Thank you Chess,

I wasn't aware of that site.  I will definately check it out!

Cheers!

Edit:  I can't seem to register with their site.  It keeps saying that the answers I'm giving for the verification question is wrong.  It's only 3 questions!!!  First answer is 7, third answer h20, what am I supposed to put for answer 2?
I tried a dozen variations of ionizationx.  Not sure what they are looking for here!
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: CompuTutor on April 16, 2011, 02:42:44 AM
Thank you Chess,

I wasn't aware of that site.  I will definately check it out!

Cheers!

Edit:  I can't seem to register with their site.  It keeps saying that the answers I'm giving for the verification question is wrong.  It's only 3 questions!!!  First answer is 7, third answer h20, what am I supposed to put for answer 2?
I tried a dozen variations of ionizationx.  Not sure what they are looking for here!

Case Sensitive perhaps ?
I just registered with "IonizationX"

How did you concoct a dozen variations of that sir ?

Nice nick, great production releases...
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: HurstOlds on April 16, 2011, 05:36:55 AM
CompuTator,

Thanks, that worked!  I appreciate you taking the time to help me out

Cheers
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: chessnyt on April 19, 2011, 04:13:58 AM
CompuTator,

Thanks, that worked!  I appreciate you taking the time to help me out

Cheers

I'm glad you were able to register at ionizationx.com.  Only registered members can download ALL of the files and photos as guests can not even see most of them.  They are hidden to guests.  Enjoy the greatest compilation of Stanley Meyer's work ever housed in one place.

Cheers
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on June 24, 2011, 07:45:10 PM
k, guys, activity coming back to the thread. Sorry been gone for a while ... notices a significant flaw in most HHO pulsing drawings - Explanation: As you may have observed (for example document D14.pdf) - nice pulsing circuit, and I would not have noticed if it would not have caused this annoying feedback in the transformer ... the truth is that the wrong side of the circuit is being pulsed! Inside a power supply / battery the flow of current is indeed from Negative to positive but outside - like in a WFC circuit - it always runs from positive to negative ... conclusion is simple, D14 pulses the negative side of the circuit (meaning after the electricity has already left the cell - kindda useless) hence the feedback in the transformer ... however ... if you pulse the positive side (the one prior to entering the cell) it's a whole new ballgame .... if anyone here wants descriptive schematics I am willing to share them, just as an example for everyone to try out.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on June 25, 2011, 12:24:55 PM
Attached as promised, the revised secondary side of the circuit.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: theshadowknows on October 25, 2011, 03:05:17 AM
Looks good, but does it actually work?
The only Stan meyer design I've been able to get to work yet is the 8xa board, http://stansdream.com/stan_8xa_board.htm .
It makes tons of gas at even .3 amp.
I have to use an inverter to generate ac to run it though.
If you were able to get your circuit to achieve resonance, maybe it would be more efficient?
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: stevensrd1 on November 07, 2011, 08:49:22 PM
I posted a way to produce free hydrogen,oxygen or electricity and listed it in the news forum. This method uses no added electricity like the old style form of water electrolysis. Always interesting topics about, best wishes all.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 11, 2011, 05:18:18 AM
Built in Germany - operational going into ultra sonic trials next week. My name is Pete and yes - I am the guy in the pic :) Cell tested without electronics - in less than one hour pressure of 2.5 BAR (almost 36 PSI achieved and it holds it as well - over pressure protection valve operates as anticipated) :)
I've downloaded the first posted schematic from this thread and when I saw the transformer, it reminded me of certain patent drawings I've seen in the past.   That's my concern: Patent components, as such, will not have been designed to split water into HHO deliberately.   They have unusual core coil winding patterns, but not to specifically make HHO.

Time's about up on this computer.   I'll be back later to explain try and what I mean further.

--Lee
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 13, 2011, 04:08:11 AM
Time's about up on this computer.   I'll be back later to explain try and what I mean further.
Okay, so I'm back to try and describe what I mean by 'patents':
For those I've seen, by Meyers and others, the amount of energy to overcome H2-O2 bonds in water molecules is too high to be cost effective.  If sound is used as a means to affect the process, would that, in effect, amount to cold fusion while using and given frequency to split water into H2 and O2.
Microwaves can also be used to excite H2 molecules to ionize them and therefore split water into component gases.   It does take a resonant frequency, as I understand it, which is why an experimental VASMIR engine should work.

I said I had a reservation in the HHO design of Meyer, and that was it.  Just my 2 cents.

--Lee
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: peterpierre on February 20, 2013, 10:01:35 AM
Duly noted :) Sorry I have been gone for so long but I was really really busy poking around. So my journey took me all the way back to the late 1800's and a guy named Nikola Tesla and I started seeing co-relations not only to Stanley Meyer but also to Edwin Gray's work ... made me wonder - so many similarities in those three peoples work, looks like Gray and Meyer made use of what Tesla was working on after he stopped working with alternating current. I also realized which parts meyer left out from his drawings:


1) There is no pulse generator in front of the primary coil (if there is it is merely to convert DC to pulsed DC in order to power the primary side) ...


2) behind the secondary coil should be a rectifier in order to turn the stepped up AC to DC again


3) behind the rectifier should be one or two or more large capacitors which are to be filled up by the stepped up DC


4) behind the capacitors (but before the blocking diode - positive side) should be a mechanical switch + properly spaced spark gap which repeatedly discharges the capacitor(s) accumulated high voltage through the blocking diode into the cell.


5) the blocking diode's sole purpose is to ensure that the pulse discharges are unidirectional - the interesting part that happens (the mystery) is in the spark gap / closure of the discharge switch, I can't quite put my finger on it to define what exactly happens but it happens anyways - maybe someone smarter than me can find a definition / explanation.


6) My findings: The circuit is plausible and not a myth at all. There is no violation of the law of thermodynamics because it is not a perpetual motion machine, you need water in order to run the device. Indeed I built a circuit which allows me to charge two 30uF caps in parallel (total 60 uF) up to 680 Volt DC with barely consuming 1.6 Watt during the short charge cycle, however the energy released upon sudden discharge can do a whole lot more than one would attribute to 1.6 Watts.


I will try to overcome my fear of great bodily harm and do a single test discharge into the cell, I hope the resulting pressure won't throw some steel pipes my way else it might turn out to be a quite painful experience. Anyone else wanna try this and have a similar setup / the means, go ahead - I take no responsibility for what may happen. ... god I hate hospitals ....
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: ronvbnt on April 29, 2014, 02:17:07 AM

I just uploaded first ever videos showing a working spiral spool spinner in operation.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805268116/spool-spinner-makes-axially-spiraled-wire-twisted-0


Unless you found a way to twist thousands of feet of wire then none of you have followed Stans VIC instructions.


I describe why I think it will work in the link above.


Ron
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: ronvbnt on April 29, 2014, 03:39:11 AM
I just uploaded first ever videos showing a working spiral spool spinner making twisted bifilar wire.  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805268116/spool-spinner-makes-axially-spiraled-wire-twisted-0 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805268116/spool-spinner-makes-axially-spiraled-wire-twisted-0)


Unless you found a way to twist thousands of feet of wire then none of you have followed Stans VIC guide.


I describe why I think it will work in the link above. Ron
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: revealer on May 06, 2014, 08:45:22 AM
Farrah Day is out of hand. His smart ass insults over the years have a lot of people angry at him. His name is Stephen G. Hands.

Stephen G. Hands
Stephen Gary Hands?
S G Hands Domestic Plumber
104 Edinburgh Road
Nuneaton, Warwickshire CV10 9HQ
United Kingdom
Phone: 024 7639 8047
Last known emails:
sg.hands1@btinternet.com



So-called armchair posters are no worse than blind experimenters.  Though typically lacking in practical experience, armchair posters often apply far more grey matter to the issue than the blind experimenters who blunder along without giving any consideration to controlled experiments, and who do not know how to interpret results even when they have them.

Armchair posters often proffer very valid information and can provide valuable comments, which sadly are often simply ignored by so-called hands-on experimenters.

Logic dictates that a balance has to be struck between the two.

I'm not really sure where this thread is headed, because while those of you believe that voltage alone can pull water apart (into what exactly?), it is clear that no-one possesses the necessary chemistry background to even hypothesise on what interactions and reactions could possibly be happening at molecular level for this to occur.

Rather than blindly experimenting as most people seem to do, it is far better to devise specific experiments to prove or disprove theories and so provide valid arguments.
Title: Re: HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.
Post by: SeaMonkey on May 10, 2014, 01:57:21 AM
Quote from: Revealer
Farrah Day is out of hand. His smart ass insults over the years have a lot of people angry at him.

It appears that you have an axe to grind.

Nay, the king of "insults" and disinfo is one of the
co-founders at the Other Forum.

Farrah Day is technically quite accurate.