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Author Topic: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION  (Read 3510127 times)

TinselKoala

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6495 on: November 24, 2014, 11:35:41 PM »
@forest: The suspense is killing me! Would you _please_ tell us the part number of the diode you were using that gave you the 4 amp current draw? And also if you tell us the type/brand of your analog oscilloscope we may be able to help you get the information you need from it.

Here is my levitator system, that uses the _exact same_ circuit on the coil-driver side, controlled by a microprocessor (arduino) that is sensing position by a photoresistor (or phototransistor) detecting a shadow edge and driving the coil in response. The performance of the circuit was much improved (greater stable levitation distance, much less audible noise, much cooler mosfet) by the addition of the ultrafast high-current diode as shown in MarkE's diagram.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkiGTWODERo



@Zd: making proper measurements, being able to communicate and share those measurements, and discussing the use of well-known techniques to improve performance of commonly used systems,  is NOT off-topic. Sorry that it isn't simple enough for you, but there it is.

forest

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6496 on: November 25, 2014, 02:28:26 PM »
Tinsel

Diode was FES16JT . Later I used HFA08PB60.Little more better. I created a snubber with 10uf/400V cap and this diode , with additional neon and transil diode in case of too much voltage ;-). I ended up with just 72V of collected energy from kickback. It need just a little improvement. Thanks to MarkE, we now know the important factor - impulse time must be shorter then L/R constant if  you work with this kind of circuit (or flyback,push-pull etc). trust me, it was valuable tip ! I still have to find why it is important. I knew those time constants are CRUCIAL in every resonant overunity devices. :-)
My scope is old polish brand Kabid DT-525a. What I need to know is how to set trigger so both channel would be synchronized in time, so I could see both signals (not just a A-B mode) and find if there is a correlation between one signal going down and other up or something like that...

I'm now in other town til the end of the week  :(

P.S. Besides, I feel that my talk is useless, seems there are silent watchers there who knew exactly where this is going to...but time is progressing fast and something need to be changed before we destroy environment and rise global temperature 4C above current level...

MarkE

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6497 on: November 25, 2014, 03:08:11 PM »
Your diodes are plenty fast.  The issue is that you are pumping up the inductor.  What is your intention?  Where do you want to deliver power?

If you want to see both channels relative to one channel, let's assume ch. 1, then trigger on ch. 1 only.  If you sweep in chopped mode you will see both waveforms but will be frequency limited by the chopping rate.  If you use alternate sweep, then you will see one channel on one triggered event and the other channel on the next.  This should not be a problem for this type of circuit.  The last tip I can offer is make sure that you are using the Normal trigger mode.  Do not use the auto trigger mode.

TinselKoala

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6498 on: November 25, 2014, 05:30:58 PM »
Yes, I agree, those diodes are great, better than any I have in my junkboxes. The issue then is the duty cycle of the signal, as MarkE illustrates. If you are trying to capture the inductive collapse spike produced when the coil current is shut off by the mosfet, into a capacitor instead of recirculating it,  then you should use a shorter duty cycle, and this should be easy to arrange with a little change in your programming of the controller.

ETA: and of course if you are using a parallel-connected neon to limit the cap voltage... the voltage will be limited to the neon's turnoff threshold which, for NE-2 is going to be just about what you reported!

TinselKoala

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6499 on: November 25, 2014, 05:43:17 PM »
I think your scope has an external trigger input. This is what you should be using if you want good time synchronization between the A and B channels, and use "ALT" mode for the "System Y". Use the gate signal from the microprocessor, (or another output of the MCU that is synchronized with the signal fed to the mosfet gate) fed to the external trigger input of the scope. Top right BNC jack in the photo, if I am understanding the layout correctly. I also found the Service Manual but it's in Polish of course and I can't read it.

http://elektrotanya.com/kabid_dt-525a_oscilloscope_sm.zip/download.html

zdiblo

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6500 on: November 25, 2014, 07:00:15 PM »
@Zd: making proper measurements, being able to communicate and share those measurements, and discussing the use of well-known techniques to improve performance of commonly used systems,  is NOT off-topic. Sorry that it isn't simple enough for you, but there it is.


I´m sharing....energy amplification...sorry for my english...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFDVCm-pxKw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oyrzLmyxeQ

MarkE

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6501 on: November 25, 2014, 07:05:45 PM »
I think your scope has an external trigger input. This is what you should be using if you want good time synchronization between the A and B channels, and use "ALT" mode for the "System Y". Use the gate signal from the microprocessor, (or another output of the MCU that is synchronized with the signal fed to the mosfet gate) fed to the external trigger input of the scope. Top right BNC jack in the photo, if I am understanding the layout correctly. I also found the Service Manual but it's in Polish of course and I can't read it.

http://elektrotanya.com/kabid_dt-525a_oscilloscope_sm.zip/download.html
I think forest is probalby using alternate sweep and auto trigger.  Set the trigger to normal and things should work fine.

TinselKoala

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6502 on: November 25, 2014, 07:16:24 PM »
@Zd: making proper measurements, being able to communicate and share those measurements, and discussing the use of well-known techniques to improve performance of commonly used systems,  is NOT off-topic. Sorry that it isn't simple enough for you, but there it is.


I´m sharing....energy amplification...sorry for my english...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFDVCm-pxKw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oyrzLmyxeQ
There is nothing wrong with your English. But you must know that voltage is not energy, power is not energy, and there is a huge difference between peak power and average power, no matter the language used. The claim in the second video that "there is no way that the power from the wall gets into the ignition coil" is simply a baldfaced lie: All the power being shown in the output of the coil does indeed come from the source: the mains power connection. In addition, it appears to me that the coil is incorrectly connected for the "weak spark" and becomes correctly connected for the enhanced spark. I'm not sure about this, though; is there a complete and honest schematic somewhere that I may inspect?



Now look at this, running on a 24 volt battery supply, NOT a wall socket.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9KVTJQsnE4

(Of course the power used to charge the battery in the first place did come from the wall socket.)

TinselKoala

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6503 on: November 25, 2014, 07:17:54 PM »
I think forest is probalby using alternate sweep and auto trigger.  Set the trigger to normal and things should work fine.
Use the external trigger, directly from the clock, and there will be no doubt. Oscilloscopes incorporate that feature for a reason, it's not just for show or to pump up the cost.

zdiblo

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6504 on: November 25, 2014, 07:51:38 PM »
There is nothing wrong with your English. But you must know that voltage is not energy, power is not energy, and there is a huge difference between peak power and average power, no matter the language used. The claim in the second video that "there is no way that the power from the wall gets into the ignition coil" is simply a baldfaced lie: All the power being shown in the output of the coil does indeed come from the source: the mains power connection. In addition, it appears to me that the coil is incorrectly connected for the "weak spark" and becomes correctly connected for the enhanced spark. I'm not sure about this, though; is there a complete and honest schematic somewhere that I may inspect?



Now look at this, running on a 24 volt battery supply, NOT a wall socket.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9KVTJQsnE4





(Of course the power used to charge the battery in the first place did come from the wall socket.)


Thanks for clarifying me and forgive me for intruding, I am not an expert in electronics like you, I am simply someone who would like to discover something in this area for pleasure and own satisfaction.
Can you please tell me if you already got an OU unit?
all the best ...


http://www.esmhome.org/library/aaron-murakami/radiantwatersparkplug.jpg


http://freeenergylt.narod.ru/olderfiles/6/FREE_ENERGY_8.jpg

or

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r9LBLk0Lwn4/TjaUt6ao9jI/AAAAAAAAAFg/4zcJz7J_beo/s1600/schematic.GIF

I´m just a newbie.....sorry....I think no one post the real schematics on the web....

Zd

TinselKoala

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6505 on: November 25, 2014, 09:39:21 PM »

Thanks for clarifying me and forgive me for intruding, I am not an expert in electronics like you, I am simply someone who would like to discover something in this area for pleasure and own satisfaction.
Can you please tell me if you already got an OU unit?
all the best ...


http://www.esmhome.org/library/aaron-murakami/radiantwatersparkplug.jpg


http://freeenergylt.narod.ru/olderfiles/6/FREE_ENERGY_8.jpg

or

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r9LBLk0Lwn4/TjaUt6ao9jI/AAAAAAAAAFg/4zcJz7J_beo/s1600/schematic.GIF

I´m just a newbie.....sorry....I think no one post the real schematics on the web....

Zd

There is no need to apologize, you are not "intruding" and I am not an expert in electronics. I think that title belongs to MarkE and perhaps several others, not me, but I am expert in other important areas that affect these discussions. I can tell you, however, that I certainly do know more about _actual_ electronics than those presenters in those videos. I have been dealing in particular with the false claims and ignorance and outright lies of Aaron Murakami in particular for over five years.  I had to educate him in the basic use of his oscilloscope, in the relationship between mosfet gate signal and drain voltage, in the functioning of 555 timer circuits, in making power measurements in pulsed circuits, and even in the operation and testing of his _own_ circuits, and more, years ago. Just look at my YT channel and search for videos containing "Aaron" and "Ainslie" as keywords.

What these claimants call "radiant" is nothing more than high frequency, high voltage electrodynamics, often produced by inductive collapse effects from rapidly interrupting the current to an inductor. There is no mystery about this. Every time you listen to a radio you are detecting, converting and using the same kind of "radiant" energy... and that's why it's called a "radio". The presenters in those linked videos and many others prefer to relabel ordinary things and cloak them with an air of  mystery because they themselves do not understand what they are doing, but are attempting to stuff observed phenomena into their own dearly-held "theoretical" belief systems.

As far as I can tell, what is being demonstrated in those videos is nothing more than a kludged-together capacitive discharge ignition system, with a couple of different choices of total capacitance being discharged into the coil primary. It is "disingenuous" in the extreme for them to claim that the relay prevents power from the wall socket from reaching the primary, when in fact all the power to charge the capacitors is coming from the wall socket and the relay simply switches between operating modes. The first image that you link, from Err-on himself, illustrates the very most basic capacitive discharge ignition system. The more energy stored in the capacitor, the more energy in the resulting spark. People have been using cap discharge ignition systems to increase the performance of their automobiles for many years. If you think adding a bit of water to the spark plug makes an interesting effect... try adding the same amount of gasoline instead of water!

 A plasma is created by the spark. Big deal, call the Nobel Committee right away. Adding some water mist does several things, and it is true that the intense spark can dissociate the water molecules and create the gases, which then recombine right away, causing various color effects in the plasma and even mechanical shockwaves. It is not true that this process liberates any excess energy. I know this because I spent literally years of fulltime work, even getting paid, to assist Peter Graneau with his water-arc energy liberation experiments, and I have explored just about every configuration of electrodes, water, high voltage plasmas and means of extracting energy from same that several really creative and smart people could think of.  Much of this work is actually published in real, peer-reviewed scientific literature, some of it under PG's authorship and some making false claims that were later retracted by other co-authors when they were determined to be indeed false.

I must apologize to _you_ for this rant. Every time I see Aaron and his cohorts misrepresenting their effects and misleading people as to the causes, I get a little "hot" myself. And to answer your question... no, I have never seen a reliable demonstration of any excess energy produced by anyone with any apparatus. I have seen and investigated many claims of such, and it is very common to see people claiming "OU" for systems that have high _peak_ power outputs for small _average_ power inputs, or that produce high levels of unusable, illusory reactive "power" or rather Volt-Amps-Reactive or VARs. But power is not energy and peak power amplification is not hard to achieve, and reactive "power" is not usable for anything other than painting pretty pictures on oscilloscopes, and fooling people into donating money to scammers (see the QEG thread).

Some more things for your amusement and consideration:
Effect of added _output_ capacitance on a high voltage "radiant" plasma system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XRwlNCF1PU

A 24 volt input, hybrid SS-SG Tesla coil producing a _lot_ of "radiant" and a lot of peak power (white marks on the black ruler are in inches):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIZClhoU2Xk

A water-drop triggered, very high voltage capacitive discharge system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aGIcIgtrLk

And the photo below shows a field map of the "radiant" field emitted by a pure, Class E solid state Tesla coil operating at less than 75 watts input:

zdiblo

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6506 on: November 25, 2014, 10:31:00 PM »
There is no need to apologize, you are not "intruding" and I am not an expert in electronics. I think that title belongs to MarkE and perhaps several others, not me, but I am expert in other important areas that affect these discussions. I can tell you, however, that I certainly do know more about _actual_ electronics than those presenters in those videos. I have been dealing in particular with the false claims and ignorance and outright lies of Aaron Murakami in particular for over five years.  I had to educate him in the basic use of his oscilloscope, in the relationship between mosfet gate signal and drain voltage, in the functioning of 555 timer circuits, in making power measurements in pulsed circuits, and even in the operation and testing of his _own_ circuits, and more, years ago. Just look at my YT channel and search for videos containing "Aaron" and "Ainslie" as keywords.

What these claimants call "radiant" is nothing more than high frequency, high voltage electrodynamics, often produced by inductive collapse effects from rapidly interrupting the current to an inductor. There is no mystery about this. Every time you listen to a radio you are detecting, converting and using the same kind of "radiant" energy... and that's why it's called a "radio". The presenters in those linked videos and many others prefer to relabel ordinary things and cloak them with an air of  mystery because they themselves do not understand what they are doing, but are attempting to stuff observed phenomena into their own dearly-held "theoretical" belief systems.

As far as I can tell, what is being demonstrated in those videos is nothing more than a kludged-together capacitive discharge ignition system, with a couple of different choices of total capacitance being discharged into the coil primary. It is "disingenuous" in the extreme for them to claim that the relay prevents power from the wall socket from reaching the primary, when in fact all the power to charge the capacitors is coming from the wall socket and the relay simply switches between operating modes. The first image that you link, from Err-on himself, illustrates the very most basic capacitive discharge ignition system. The more energy stored in the capacitor, the more energy in the resulting spark. People have been using cap discharge ignition systems to increase the performance of their automobiles for many years. If you think adding a bit of water to the spark plug makes an interesting effect... try adding the same amount of gasoline instead of water!

 A plasma is created by the spark. Big deal, call the Nobel Committee right away. Adding some water mist does several things, and it is true that the intense spark can dissociate the water molecules and create the gases, which then recombine right away, causing various color effects in the plasma and even mechanical shockwaves. It is not true that this process liberates any excess energy. I know this because I spent literally years of fulltime work, even getting paid, to assist Peter Graneau with his water-arc energy liberation experiments, and I have explored just about every configuration of electrodes, water, high voltage plasmas and means of extracting energy from same that several really creative and smart people could think of.  Much of this work is actually published in real, peer-reviewed scientific literature, some of it under PG's authorship and some making false claims that were later retracted by other co-authors when they were determined to be indeed false.

I must apologize to _you_ for this rant. Every time I see Aaron and his cohorts misrepresenting their effects and misleading people as to the causes, I get a little "hot" myself. And to answer your question... no, I have never seen a reliable demonstration of any excess energy produced by anyone with any apparatus. I have seen and investigated many claims of such, and it is very common to see people claiming "OU" for systems that have high _peak_ power outputs for small _average_ power inputs, or that produce high levels of unusable, illusory reactive "power" or rather Volt-Amps-Reactive or VARs. But power is not energy and peak power amplification is not hard to achieve, and reactive "power" is not usable for anything other than painting pretty pictures on oscilloscopes, and fooling people into donating money to scammers (see the QEG thread).

Some more things for your amusement and consideration:
Effect of added _output_ capacitance on a high voltage "radiant" plasma system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XRwlNCF1PU

A 24 volt input, hybrid SS-SG Tesla coil producing a _lot_ of "radiant" and a lot of peak power (white marks on the black ruler are in inches):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIZClhoU2Xk

A water-drop triggered, very high voltage capacitive discharge system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aGIcIgtrLk

And the photo below shows a field map of the "radiant" field emitted by a pure, Class E solid state Tesla coil operating at less than 75 watts input:



Thanks for your informative explanation, case closed ...
Again, thank you for sharing your wisdom, I'm learning ... and I will not talk about it anymore because I am a little man from a small country and do not know anything about this ...my MISSION is completed...
Sorry to disturb you again.
My best regards.

Zd

forest

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6507 on: November 25, 2014, 10:42:16 PM »
TinselKoala,MarkE

I'm using trigger on channel A with Auto trigger. I don't understand what Normal trigger mode can do, mostly it looks the same as Auto one.And yes, I'm using ALT view to see both signals from Channel A and B so I can scroll one of them to bu upper and one lower and compare. I wish you know what I mean.So, should I change to Normal triggering mode and trigger only on channel A with scope connected to the output of microcontroller and scope on channel B connected to the coil end near the Source of mosfet ? Is that correct ?


P.S. Tinsel, Wow! Don't you think you react too emotionally ? Aaron is maybe a sneaky pal trying to get attention but this experiment with car coil is really cool and has a secret hidden ,maybe  ::)
Do you REALLY wish to "fight to death" defending current scientific dogma
, even if the change is right behind the corner ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-NhDeNGh7M&list=UUZjwwSkok_CxM1zRFx2EBLg&index=9

nelsonrochaa

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6508 on: November 25, 2014, 10:56:38 PM »


Thanks for your informative explanation, case closed ...
Again, thank you for sharing your wisdom, I'm learning ... and I will not talk about it anymore because I am a little man from a small country and do not know anything about this ...
Sorry to disturb you again.
My best regards.

Zd

Was following the post and I was curious how much truth and wisdom could be found at forum of this kind.
We must always listen to the opinions of others, and we must know how to take the best of those opinions but do not mean that to be the most certain.

Surely there will be some people who have devoted a great deal of his time to this type of work and is  only by bigotry :) as Aaron? I think not ....
The effect that Aaron demonstrated that it was not so basic as described herein.
This same effect contrary to what has been said, can be played without the use of power grid and with only with only 12V.

This just to see fit that there are no absolute truths and that laws were created by men in order to be convenient.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfxEAQNOjp0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf_qUlwSZl0


I think I'm one of the people that Tim mentioned as part of the people who do not know what they are doing.

But after solemn speech I even feel more comforted by what I do.

Lots of luck to you in your investigations and your decisions


forest

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #6509 on: November 25, 2014, 11:14:39 PM »
Nelson
Counting on your amps usage maybe also using 9V battery  ;) but I understand you may have no reason to use it  ::) and took negative comments.
It remains me some effect of an arrow when it sharply pierce into the hard wood.The arrow movement is abruptly stopped yet still there is energy flow which cannot dissipate and return back and form kind of very fast oscillations of the end part of arrow beatting against the air...