Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Custom Search

[Nali2001]

Hi all, I might have some interesting idea:
An (relatively) easy to realize Hildenbrand style permanent magnet assisted magnet motor.
You might know that next to all washing machines have a motor with a core that can be easily adapted for this use. I think the pictures talk for themselves but just in case I will explain it a bit:

The plan is to make a 3 valve motor much like Hildenbrand has done only this time it is on a budget. So We use old washing machine motor cores. So you need 3 the same core. Might sound difficult but it?s not really so, a lot of brands use the same motors. These things can of course be bought new, but a better option is to go to your local recycle center or repair shop or whatever. There you will be able to scrap them out of old dumped washing machines for free (Or cheap at least.)

So now you have 3 cores, you remove the windings. Now on one side of each core you need to take out a part of the core for the magnet. You can use a metal mill, or go see some metal machinist and have them do it for you. (Mind the laminations)

On the other side of the core you need to wind a coil that should at a given input have the same strength as the permanent magnet. And preferably saturate the core section where it is wound around. So that it acts even more as a gate, to not allow the passage of any flux from the permanent magnet.

Next thing to do it construct some kind of precise rotor.

Now we connect all three valves to each other through a shaft. For far better torque results through the whole rotation of the system you want to advance each rotor 120 degrees relative to each other.
Of course you need to make some circuit that will pulse the coils, you could use opto switching, or maybe even a commutator or some other contact point based system. But I leave that up to you. Next to mechanical output you should be able you recover a good part of the back emf from the input coils. This can be done up to saturation.

So that all, I must say that there are far better rotor shapes possible than the one seen in the pictures. But one should look into variable or switched reluctance motors for more understanding of such a rotor arrangement.

Well maybe in inspires some to start a little project.
Thanks

[FredWalter]

On the other side of the core you need to wind a coil that should at a given input have the same strength as the permanent magnet. And preferably saturate the core section where it is wound around.

How do you figure out how much flux is required to saturate the core (and from this, figure out the best size/strength of permanent magnet to use)?

Once you have the right size/strength of permanent magnet, how do you calculate the wire size/number of turns/voltage/amperage so that the resulting electro-magnet will be the same strength as the permanent magnet?

Next thing to do it construct some kind of precise rotor.

Doesn't the rotor require magnets (whether permanent magnet or electromagnet) so that it will react to the flux through it, and rotate?

Of course you need to make some circuit that will pulse the coils, you could use opto switching, or maybe even a commutator or some other contact point based system.

Would what this guy is developing work here?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2071.0.html

[Nali2001]

Hello there FredWalter.
Look mate I don't claim to have all the formula's to super precisely calculate the saturation levels but it can be found by trying the system out, and varying the input to the coil and monitor when it's performance it optimal. But this all is not that much of a problem. And if the coil is completely not able to saturate it at all, just wind another one, costs you a dollars of wire, and 30minutes to do so. Small price to pay, in my opinion. In my experiments with other systems I found that a given cross section of regular silicon laminated steel (from mots or stators) will be saturated, by a n42 magnet of the same cross section.
See the attached movie for an example.

And no you don't need magnets in the rotor. The rotation is coused by the combined flux of the coil and magnet wanting to pull the rotor in better alignment, and so couse rotation. But this principle of rotation is noting new or anything. The variable and switched reluctance motors have worked by the principle for decades. For more info look a google for example.
http://www.srdrives.com/technology.shtml
http://www.sovereign-publications.com/images/srdrives/picture1.jpg
http://www.simulation-research.com/sr/products/tesla/html/Image144.gif
http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&q=switched+reluctance&btnG=Afbeeldingen+zoeken&gbv=2

There would be many ways of powering these coils and should not be too hard to create for someone somewhat skilled in circuits.

[JackH]

Hello Nali2001,

Sorry but this design will not work to overunity.   I have allready tryed it.  To get the four times amplifaction the permanent magnet and the coil need to be on the same side.  Also there is not thick steel, you will over saturate the fields.  Also in my experiments with the magnet on one side, the rotor did not want to turn loose of the permanent magnet flux lines.  They would need to travel across over to the coil side to short out.    You can make a motor like this but do not expect it to be very efficient.  Don it.

Later,,,,,,,JackH

[wizkycho]

Hi Nail !

good thinking to use existing motors and "repair" them.
but this I think would not work

In this setup:
 If Core (rotor) is in 90-270 deg position and coil off there will be magnetic flux going thru Core from magnet (if air gap is small (should be)) - can not work that way.

maybe something else...

wiz

[wizkycho]

btw. Nail !

can You post here ziped fem file so I can make some analysis...
have some ideas ....

thanks

Wiz

[wizkycho]

Hi nail2001 !

this could work (simplified core) coil is between two magnets.

Wiz

[wizkycho]

wiz

[broli]

Magnetic transistor!!!

Wizkycho, Good eye on catching this thread, since I understand your idea I'm starting to understand others as well and they seem to have one thing in common. That is the use of a coil to reroute the magnetic field. This concept is easy and simple I hope it inspires others as well.

Edit: wizkycho, since I always find your sims a bit difficult to look at since they lack any solid colors, here's a contribution so others can instantly get what's what.

[gyulasun]

Hi Folks,

Seems very good!   

One notice:  I think there must a small air gap be left where the middle column touches the horizontal core so that

1) the returning flux could easier go back to the left and right side vertical colums

2) in the coils' off state the diagonal unlike poles could find it hard to see each other through the middle column.

Do you agree?

rgds,  Gyula

EDIT:  I'm affraid Lenz can still apply (dispite the small airgap), when you load the output coil (not shown) in the middle column   

[Nali2001]

Hi there Wiz and nice to see some thoughts going on.
However in your simulation I do not see the fields of the coil when it is on. You show only the fields of what the magnets will do. But the field of the coils obviously also want to go somewhere. And I don't know how much tough you put into the overall dimensions of your simulation but in reality that thing will oversaturate if neo magnets are used. I always see it as 'units' the steel when the coil is on must at each side support two units of flux, one from the magnet and one from the coil. A unity in my way of thinking is as big as the cross section of the magnet so of your magnet has a cross section of 20mm you can expect a piece of steel of also 20mm cross section to more of less support the field of the magnet without saturation. In you image the cross section of the steel and magnet is the same. But you must keep in mind that the field of the coil also must be accounted for. So that means steel must have an additional 20mm cross section. So it can accommodate the magnet field and coil field.

But all besides that I have never found this type of device to work as a o.u 'transformer' In all my models it simply does not matter if you add magnets or not. There always seems to be a straight coupling of the input and output coils and largely ignore the magnets. Although it is all fun and games in simulations it is a whole different reality when put in to practice. In motor applications on the other hand it does hold big promise.

[broli]

Nali2001, I don't think wizkycho is showing an idea for a transformer. Just like your concept he's showing how you can turn on or off the strength of two magnets with a little energy input by a coil. This can then be used to cause rotation much like Dr. linderman's attraction motor but in this case you use the dorment power of permanent magnets instead of the coil to make the field that momentarily attracts the rotor.

[wizkycho]

Hi Nali2001 !

  Scince You haven't posted ziped,rared fem file I made simplified stator core of your motor, but different
magnet coil arrangment (the way it should work - closer to Hildebrand and mag. trans.) and it has, If nothing, one advantage -
no cutting of stator to insert the magnet.

 The metal in Center is simplified rotor spaced 0.25mm, both sides ->0.5 mm.

Satturation of ironsheet is 1.4T and I use 1T worth of flux of magnets so there is 0.3 - 0.4T room for coil flux. Magnet and Core is equaly wide 20mm - so nothing is saturated. simplified rotor is twice that 40mm so it can "conduct" complete flux from both magnet pairs.
So dimmensions are right.

About Coil flux - I haven't drawn any flux on these pics, I gave coils 1.1A -> 0.8W at the end, every flux line is drawn by FEM the program
and It by itself makes an ERROR cause it is programmed by false "conservation of energy" (and flux lines) principle - everything must be nullified in a given area so FEM actually ERASES !?! existing flux lines from coil (... and it shouldn't cause in reality magnetic flux is not behaving this way).
0.8W is energy needed to "overcome" airgaps of rotor, after that coil flux are showned. Just like in common Current tranz 0.7V to start behaving like transistor.

Broli - You drawn the right position of magnets and coils

Gylasun - No coil in center, just rotor (again, I drawn it simplified), no lenz for now - mechanicall output

To Nali2001 -
maybe your setup could work, but I think that flux wan't go all that way arround core if airgap to rotor is small (and should be smaller as it can get). Is there something written on the motor (Current, Voltage, Power) -  seems small for washing machine ?
Thanks for the idea Nali cause I'm having undescribeable tourment to find someone willing to make sheets for prototipes.
Everybody acts like everything is invented and mankind allready Knows everything - it is so so far from that point.

Wiz

[broli]

wizkycho, I feel with you. We live in a time where people get laughed at that want to change the world into a better place. Or get ignored if they want help on some research. We should be living in a world were research is promoted, where they throw all the equipment at you just so you can do research so humanity can keep advancing technologically. It's technology that solves problems not a credit system or the lies of a politician. The political monetary system must be destroyed and become a social technological system. No money no politics no poverty no bullshit.

[grayone]

broli; They will never do it as long as you have control freaks who want to own everybody, and act like a God.