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[Omnibus]

@Yadaraf,

Thanks. Now, the purpose of this exercise is to see whether we can recover the rpm of the stator and rotor from the audio spectrum of the device.

Thus, we know that the rotor turns at ~250rpm and therefore the stator turns at ~4 x 250 = 1000rpm. Let?s see if this is what we?ll get from the spectrum.

First clear peak is at 963Hz which may mean that 963 times per second or 963 x 60 times per minute there was an event (for instance, passing of a pole of the rotor by the stator). A rotor has 8 poles, therefore, every minute there were (963 x 60)/8 = 7222 full turns of rotor or the rotor was spinning at 7222rpm. Not so, though, as is known from the condition of this problem. Therefore, this peak tells us nothing about the rotor rate of rotation. Neither for rate of spinning of the stator.

One may consider one earlier peak at around 600Hz but then again (600 x 60)/8 = 4500rpm. Nowhere near the known rates of rotation of rotor and stator.

The peaks in kHz region aren?t even first and second harmonic and are obviously to be excluded for the purpose of this exercise.

Therefore, a spectrum such as this cannot serve as a measurement of the rotor and stator rpm but gives a more general fingerprint of the acoustic behavior of the device probably more reflective of things such as the inexactness of the bearings causing a clatter due to wobbling, different noises due to friction losses, general vibration of the structure etc.

Probably, it will be interesting to compare it to the previous spectra of the same device (taken during its wind down) but I guess the conclusion will be the same?the wind down spectra only show the general acoustic behavior of the device during that period of wind down.

This is what seems to be the most plausible conclusion from this spectral analysis. What do you think?

[Omnibus]

.

[Yadaraf]

@Yadaraf,

Thanks. Now, the purpose of this exercise is to see whether we can recover the rpm of the stator and rotor from the audio spectrum of the device.

Thus, we know that the rotor turns at ~250rpm and therefore the stator turns at ~4 x 250 = 1000rpm. Let?s see if this is what we?ll get from the spectrum.

First clear peak is at 963Hz which may mean that 963 times per second or 963 x 60 times per minute there was an event (for instance, passing of a pole of the rotor by the stator). A rotor has 8 poles, therefore, every minute there were (963 x 60)/8 = 7222 full turns of rotor or the rotor was spinning at 7222rpm. Not so, though. Therefore, this peak tells us nothing about the rotor. Neither for rate of spinning of the stator.

One may consider one earlier peak at around 600Hz but then again (600 x 60)/8 = 4500rpm. Nowhere near the known rates of rotation of rotor and stator.

The peaks in kHz region aren?t even first and second harmonic and are obviously to be excluded for the purposes of this exercise.

Therefore, a spectrum such as this cannot serve as a measurement of the rotor and stator rpm but gives a more general fingerprint of the acoustic behavior of the device probably more reflective of things such as the inexactness of the bearings causing a clatter due to wobbling, different noises due to friction losses, general vibration of the structure etc.

Probably, it will be interesting to compare it to the previous spectra of the same device (taken during its wind down) but I guess the conclusion will be the same?the wind down spectra only show the general acoustic behavior of the device during that period of wind down.

This is what seems to be the most plausible conclusion from this spectral analysis. What do you think?

Omni,

See my hypothesis on the 5th harmonic.  FunkyJive's a musician and might have an observation.  What doesn't fit, however, is that the amplitude of the 5th -- if that's what it is -- is higher than the fundamental.

... 5th harmonic:  http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76194.html#msg76194

I keep thinking of CLaNZeR's video in which he discusses bearing noise.  Great video as usual.  The noise -- and tones like in Andrea's rig -- are peculiar to be sure.

... Bearing Noise:  http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSBearingnoise.wmv

I agree that the HI/LO tones probably are not related to race noise.  Also, recall that Bruce's rig did not have spinning stators, and it still generated interesting tones.  I'm scratching my head.    


Cheers,   

Yada..
.

[blue_energy]

@Yadaraf,

Here's the sound bit this time with tails of background. Also, who knows, I've become a little more skilled in turning the rotor by hand so I could keep it almost within 240-260rpm range. Sorry for the delay. And, yes, I'm on the east coast--NYC.

Omni,

Here you go.  I think the baseline worked well.      Note in the baseline that is a persistent spike.

Not sure what you can conclude, however ...


Cheers,   

Yada..
.

Wow!  Just back from seeing Victor Lamont Wooten in concert in a bar!  My God!  To be able to play like that...

OK - I just stopped in to say to Omnibus:

If you want to compare apples to apples - your rig to Alsetalokin's - you need to spin the stator up to 5220 rpm.  All rotor or stator dependent frequencies will vary with the speed of the stator and or rotor.  That was the significance of the 174 Hertz test: Al's rig only produces the 174 Hz tone when spinning at full speed - and we can hear it slowly rev up to that.  If your rig and Al's are identical, you won't get that harmonic unless your rig is spinning the same speed his was - which we, at least, think we've narrowed down to 5,220 on the stator and 1,305 on the rotor.  I think it's quite likely that there are other frequencies which are movement related as well.

Do you have any means at your disposal to speed the rotor up to 1305?  Dremel buffer?  Compressed air?

I'm going to try speeding up your audio to attempt to simulate somewhere around 1305.  If it was at 250 rpm, I'll quadruple the speed to raise it to 1,000 rpm.  That should also increase whatever sound is there by 2 octaves - which might make it stand out.  Unfortunately, I don't have the skill to figure out what I'd have to do get it to 1,305.  Octaves are easy because each octave up is double the current frequency.

I don't hold out too much hope for this plan, however.  It's a hack - but it's a cludge.  It would be better if you could produce a test sample which is the same speed as Alsetalokin's.

[Yadaraf]

@Yadaraf,

Here's the sound bit this time with tails of background. Also, who knows, I've become a little more skilled in turning the rotor by hand so I could keep it almost within 240-260rpm range. Sorry for the delay. And, yes, I'm on the east coast--NYC.

Omni,

Here you go.  I think the baseline worked well.      Note in the baseline that is a persistent spike.

Not sure what you can conclude, however ...


Cheers,   

Yada..
.

Wow!  Just back from seeing Victor Lamont Wooten in concert in a bar!  My God!  To be able to play like that...

OK - I just stopped in to say to Omnibus:

If you want to compare apples to apples - your rig to Alsetalokin's - you need to spin the stator up to 5220 rpm.  All rotor or stator dependent frequencies will vary with the speed of the stator and or rotor.  That was the significance of the 174 Hertz test: Al's rig only produces the 174 Hz tone when spinning at full speed - and we can hear it slowly rev up to that.  If your rig and Al's are identical, you won't get that harmonic unless your rig is spinning the same speed his was - which we, at least, think we've narrowed down to 5,220 on the stator and 1,305 on the rotor.  I think it's quite likely that there are other frequencies which are movement related as well.

Do you have any means at your disposal to speed the rotor up to 1305?  Dremel buffer?  Compressed air?

I'm going to try speeding up your audio to attempt to simulate somewhere around 1305.  If it was at 250 rpm, I'll quadruple the speed to raise it to 1,000 rpm.  That should also increase whatever sound is there by 2 octaves - which might make it stand out.  Unfortunately, I don't have the skill to figure out what I'd have to do get it to 1,305.  Octaves are easy because each octave up is double the current frequency.

I don't hold out too much hope for this plan, however.  It's a hack - but it's a cludge.  It would be better if you could produce a test sample which is the same speed as Alsetalokin's.

Blue,

Bela Fleck is awesome.  One of my favs.  Just got into them a couple of years ago.

Q:  What's your reference for 5220 RPM? 

@02:57 on the WMV video I can read "4733" on the LCD and hear Al say: "OK, so now we're over 4000 -- almost 5000 RPM on that small magnet."   


Cheers,   

Yada..
.

[Omnibus]

@blue_energy,

Sorry to bother you with this boring stuff after such an inspiring evening you had. Yes, I understand that but my only goal was to see if we can connect somehow the rpm with the spectral pattern. We can't, it turned out. As for the 174Hz you're right, the conditions have to be kept the same to "hear" that tone. Unfortunately, I don't have anything here to accomplish that save the fact that things such as a Dremel will introduce additional noise which will interfere (not sure it can be filtered good). Anyway, I don't see comparing the acoustic characteristics of the device being of much use for its successful replication but I may be wrong. Do you think any successful machines would sound the same? Do, say, working internal combustion engines have common major acoustic patterns?

[Yadaraf]

RE Harmonics

I performed an FFT on the 4700 RPM audio (4733?) and then applied a harmonic ruler to the far left peak (176.6 Hz). 

The peak at 871.7 Hz looks 5th to me.   


Cheers,   

Yada..
.

EDIT:   Hmmm.  I didn't do anything and now I notice the figure is missing.  Mods?  What happened?  Dunno, so reposted, but had to create a new image name.  FYI previous image(s) had been viewed 136 times.

EDIT:  If there is a 5th, where are the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th?  In any event, during acceleration a frequency shift is observed in both the low tone and the high tone, so they are coupled.

EDIT:  Note the vertical black lines are superimposed harmonic ruler lines.

[Yadaraf]

RE:  CSI Yadaraf and the Fifth Harmonic

While investigating the Fifth Harmonic in rotating devices, I found an article in Mechanical Engineering Magazine that discusses "unusual speeds" in motors .  There might be some relevance.

=====
"For the fifth harmonic of the incoming current, 300 electrical degrees separate the pole/phase groups, Bourne said. That's five times the separation of the fundamental phases. But 300 degrees is really minus 60 degrees for a periodic function, Bourne explained.

So adjacent phases of the fundamental and the harmonic frequencies are exactly opposite. For a three-phase machine, that means that the fifth harmonic creates a field of the same number of poles as the fundamental, but with a negative phase sequence, Bourne said. And that field rotates counter to the fundamental, at five times the speed.

Similar arguments apply to other harmonics, Bourne said. In a three-phase machine, multiples of the third harmonic are neutral, producing no negative effect, but making no contribution either. Harmonics 5, 11, 17, and so on produce reverse sequence currents. Harmonics 7, 13, 19, etc., produce nonsynchronous forward sequence currents, he said.

"Ask any motor person in the world what happens when you run a motor on the fifth harmonic," said Isaiah Cox, CEO of Chorus. "They will tell you it runs in reverse at five times the speed. It is gospel."

====

... http://www.memagazine.org/mepower01/5thharm/5thharm.html

CSI Yadaraf on the scene.   

Cheers,   

Yada..
.

[Yadaraf]

RE: CSI Yadaraf and the Fifth Harmonic (redux)

I took 25 samples of the HI and LO tones during acceleration in the WMV file.  Here's the data.

S      LO          HI       Ratio
=====================
01   164.19   826.34   5.03
02   166.88   826.34   4.95
03   166.88   820.95   4.92
04   166.88   831.72   4.98
05   166.88   839.79   5.03
06   166.88   839.79   5.03
07   169.57   831.72   4.90
08   169.57   837.10   4.94
09   169.57   845.18   4.98
10   169.57   847.87   5.00
11   170.92   841.14   4.92
12   170.92   843.83   4.94
13   170.92   857.29   5.02
14   170.92   846.52   4.95
15   172.27   847.87   4.92
16   172.27   850.56   4.94
17   172.27   850.56   4.94
18   172.27   864.02   5.02
19   174.96   866.71   4.95
20   174.96   864.02   4.94
21   174.96   869.40   4.97
22   174.96   866.71   4.95
23   174.96   866.71   4.95
24   177.65   866.71   4.88
25   177.65   872.09   4.91

Note the ratio at each sample is very similar.   The average ratio is 4.96 (i.e. 5:1).  To me this suggests a fifth harmonic. 

If the HI and LO tones were related to the speeds of the rotor and stator, then I think we should expect a ratio closer to 4:1, not 5:1.



Cheers,   

Yada..
.

[CLaNZeR]

Some new Videos, these new Stator bearings are great!

First big one for Yada, some sound samples.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeR-OCPM-YADA.wmv

Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=D9v9ISMlj1g


Next one shows how easy it is to latch into AGW, including all 3 stators going AGW at over 1500RPM.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSNewBearingsLatch.wmv

Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VE3aboJWhY0

New Rotor Dimensions, ummm why did I bother LOL.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSNew18mmRotor.wmv

Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9XG9MaLXVVg

Cheers

Sean.

[Yadaraf]

RE: Not harmonics but possibly SUB-harmonics?

A new hypothesis:  the HI tone is fundamental and the LO tone is a subharmonic.

This makes some sense, and in fact the HI tone is often higher in amplitude than the LO tone.

(NOTE:  I seem to be talking to myself on this matter.     Anyone's comment is welcome.)

CSI Yadaraf on the scene.


Cheers,   

Yada..
.

[Yadaraf]

Some new Videos, these new Stator bearings are great!

First big one for Yada, some sound samples.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeR-OCPM-YADA.wmv

Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=D9v9ISMlj1g


Next one shows how easy it is to latch into AGW, including all 3 stators going AGW at over 1500RPM.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSNewBearingsLatch.wmv

Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VE3aboJWhY0

New Rotor Dimensions, ummm why did I bother LOL.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSNew18mmRotor.wmv

Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9XG9MaLXVVg

Cheers

Sean.

CLaNZeR,

Copy that.  I'm headed out for a few hours, but will most certainly get to it this evening.  It sounds great!   Sampling should be a breeze.  Thanks.   

... Q:  Sean, do you know anything about this saying?

"Ask any motor person in the world what happens when you run a motor on the fifth harmonic," said Isaiah Cox, CEO of Chorus. "They will tell you it runs in reverse at five times the speed. It is gospel."


Cheers, 

Yada..
.

[CLaNZeR]

... Q:  Sean, do you know anything about this saying?

"Ask any motor person in the world what happens when you run a motor on the fifth harmonic," said Isaiah Cox, CEO of Chorus. "They will tell you it runs in reverse at five times the speed. It is gospel."

I have seen this before from people selling Motor Protectors and they mention faile safe against the 5th harmonic as a feature.

Quick search on google brings up loads and even part of some FAQ's

http://www.myronzucker.com/faq.html#q10

Cheers

Sean.

[Yadaraf]

... Q:  Sean, do you know anything about this saying?

"Ask any motor person in the world what happens when you run a motor on the fifth harmonic," said Isaiah Cox, CEO of Chorus. "They will tell you it runs in reverse at five times the speed. It is gospel."

I have seen this before from people selling Motor Protectors and they mention faile safe against the 5th harmonic as a feature.

Quick search on google brings up loads and even part of some FAQ's

http://www.myronzucker.com/faq.html#q10

Cheers

Sean.

CLaNZeR,

Thanks.  The fact that you've heard the saying is encouraging to me.  If you would, please keep an open mind about the effect of a fifth harmonic on the WhipMag.  From what I gather, it produces "run-away" and overspeeding, but might be needed for these devices.  Al's device appears to demonstrate something like it.


Cheers,   

Yada..
.

[Grimer]

...
(NOTE:  I seem to be talking to myself on this matter.     Anyone's comment is welcome.)

CSI Yadaraf on the scene.

Cheers,   

Yada..
.

Well done Yadaraf.  CSI indeed. 

Following one of your references I found the following excerpt:

==============================================================
http://www.memagazine.org/mepower01/5thharm/5thharm.html

For the fifth harmonic of the incoming current, 300 electrical degrees separate the pole/phase groups, Bourne said. That's five times the separation of the fundamental phases. But 300 degrees is really minus 60 degrees for a periodic function, Bourne explained.

So adjacent phases of the fundamental and the harmonic frequencies are exactly opposite. For a three-phase machine, that means that the fifth harmonic creates a field of the same number of poles as the fundamental, but with a negative phase sequence, Bourne said. And that field rotates counter to the fundamental, at five times the speed.
==============================================================

In January on Fizzx.com I wrote:

==============================================================
I believe that AGW stator rotation is the point where power being consumed becomes power being gained.

If my belief is correct it follows that anyone who achieves AGW has in fact managed to draw power from the magnetic potential, the magnetic pressure of the environment.

Of course merely achieving AGW will not guarantee the kind of continuous running that Alan has shown us.

To achieve continuous running the power input has to be greater than the power output, obviously; has to be greater in other words that the losses due to windage (air resistance), friction in the bearings, eddy currents and any other losses I haven't thought of.

If the onset of AGW does mark the point at which power is being obtained from the environment then there should be a change in the slowdown of the central rotor.
==============================================================

This move to the fifth harmonic seems to be the key to reversing the travel around the BH loop from the refrigeration cycle already well understood to the power cycle which Steorn have been attempting to harness.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/AlsetalokinPowerBHloop.jpg