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[ezzob]

Well i think is time that Al say something, its all a big smoke screen

And it cost people money and time.

Regards

[Harvey]

hi everyone i was watching the video again and around 2:09 through 2:11  someone says something... does anyone know what he says?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIvZJ9xGutI

The background voice appears to be asking "Aren't those too high?"

 

[Bruce_TPU]

Good Afternoon all,

Received MY rotor in today!  (Finally!  I am very happy!  LOL)

A couple of weights and measures only, for now.

Rotor Weight
228 grams

Magnet Weights
24 grams

Bearings
2 grams

Total = 254 Grams  I am very satisfied with that.  Only 4 grams short.

Stator Bearing Assembly Weight
10 grams  Perfect!

Separation between rotor edge and stator
5 mm  Perfect!

I still need to grind screw heads.  I will start on that tomorrow.  I hope for live testing next week.  I will have to use golf tees until I find the proper nylon 4-40 screws, for the dampers.

@ Sean
Are you using lubricant for any of your bearings?

@ Harvey
Is there a chance that Al's effect could be caused by induced current into the bearings, visa via the rotor magnets.  And then with the magnet above, together, the stator acting as a homopolar generator?
If so, then using a non conductive lubricant could screw up the works? 
To lube or not to lube, that is the question!?!?   

Cheers,

Bruce

[Omnibus]

@CLaNZeR,

Great videos. As always. I gotta tell you, the behavior of your rig is exactly as mine (I like the addition of the rosette in yours) regarding the AGW lock. Now we should consider established that achieving AGW lock isn?t a problem but that?s not the crucial factor for the effect of acceleration to appear as we were led to believe by @alsetalokin. There must be something else working in concert with the AGW lock to bring in the effect. The good news is that we only have just a few parameters to tinker with in exploring what that 'something else' might be. The bad news is that it isn?t straightforward to fiddle with the magnetic field which is one of the parameters or to second guess what exact company the proper bearings come from. One thing we may do, though, is to start from a lower rotor weight and start adding pieces of plastic or lead or whatever to see if we could reach a happier weight. 

I?m not sure what @Yadaraf  is trying to achieve with his 5-th harmonic (as far as I understand that?s detrimental for the motor?s run) but it?ll be interesting to see how different your and my rig will sound having in mind that, all the rest probably the same, my base is thicker (almost 18mm) and your bearings come probably from a different source than mine.

P.S. You wouldn't have any rpm vs. time curves taken with your tachometer with and without AGW lock, would you? It'll be interesting to see how they compare at the very beginning of the AGW lock. I remember in your earlier graphs you published here there were some peculiarities worth paying attention, I think.

[Omnibus]

@Grimer,

You posted somewhere the following:

" I believe that AGW stator rotation is the point where power being consumed becomes power being gained. "

That isn't obvious, however. Could you please elaborate on that?

[Omnibus]

@Harvey,

Your commentaries are quite interesting, as long as they are backed up by evidence:

The sum total of field densities for any three magnets in interaction should not change. However a differential between the approaching fields and the retreating fields is highly possible. This would indicate a higher 'relative density' in the approach zone and a lower 'relative density' in the retreat zone. And this differential is where I believe we are receiving our gains. It would be a form of doppler compression of a gradient field.

Is this ?differential between the approaching fields and the retreating fields? just a conjecture you?re making or you have some further evidence for it other than the analogy with doppler compression of a gradient field?

In this connection I also saw this:

The discussion really amounts to flux dispersion. Since force is proportional to density, higher density has greater force. When magnets are in an attractive state space between them is altered and flux follows the preferred path filling the cantenoid region which raises the density between them. Conversely when magnets are in a repulsive state the space is altered such that the flux is spread out thus less dense. However, as the distance between the repelling magnets shorten, the flux between them compresses filling the catenoid region and thus increasing the density and force.

Consequently for most tests the attraction will be greater for a given distance but at the surface (provided you can determine accurately the point of contact in repulsive mode) you will find the forces to be equal yet opposite.

And this

Anyone see my torque comment on Fizzx? This is another interesting thing. The decent to negative torque is a gradual one but the ascent to postive torque is extremly sharp and near vertical. It is conceivable that in Al's device the expected negative torque is never reached - sorta like a capacitor discharging (curves are very similar) it never fully does. In this scenario we find a gain. Just thinking outloud again.

Again, this has to be explained more thoroughly. The implied lack of symmetry between the attractive and repulsive forces isn?t obvious to me. If that were the case it seems that all of us should have observed an effect similar to that shown by @alsetalokin?s because the configurations are almost exactly as his. We don?t, however. One possible cause may be that we?re still unable to achieve conditions whereby that excess energy is sufficient to overcome the tremendous energy losses created in or particular devices. However, it isn?t obvious to me that our losses are greater than those in @alsetalokin?s device?same screeching sounds there, same wobbling etc.

[Omnibus]

@Harvey,

This also needs more explanation: http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=2466#2466 .This isn't measured torque, right? How did you calculate it?

EDIT: Also, this: http://urad.net/forums/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=4 . The magnet equatorials obtained using Magnetic Film are quite an illustration. Couldn't you obtain that for a real disposition of stator vs. rotor magnets? As for the Lissajou traces, how did you take them exactly. Maybe that's the measurement @alsetalokin should do and we should try to reproduce it. If you recall, I was suggesting simply measuring the kgauss at a given distance from rotor (respectively from stators) at, say, 1 degree increment and compare it to a similar measurement with @alsetalokin's device.

[Grimer]

@Grimer,

You posted somewhere the following:

" I believe that AGW stator rotation is the point where power being consumed becomes power being gained. "

That isn't obvious, however. Could you please elaborate on that?

I have done in Reply 2365 on the previous page (page 158) of this "Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??" thread.

Since writing that post I have also realised where the large acceleration in Alsetalokin's 1st video comes from. The AGW stator is driving the rotor magnets in the power direction around the minor BH loop.
 
The other two GW magnets are holding the AGW magnet back. They are driving the rotor magnets in the "refrigeration" direction around the minor BH loop. They are acting as a brake. They are providing negative strain energy. When they are stopped this brake is released and the energy piles in to the rotor which speeds up to the point where the AGW power balanced friction and windage losses,

[Omnibus]

@Grimer,

You posted somewhere the following:

" I believe that AGW stator rotation is the point where power being consumed becomes power being gained. "

That isn't obvious, however. Could you please elaborate on that?

I have done in Reply 2365 on the previous page (page 158) of this "Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??" thread.

Since writing that post I have also realised where the large acceleration in Alsetalokin's 1st video comes from. The AGW stator is driving the rotor magnets in the power direction around the minor BH loop.
 
The other two GW magnets are holding the AGW magnet back. They are driving the rotor magnets in the "refrigeration" direction around the minor BH loop. They are acting as a brake. They are providing negative strain energy. When they are stopped this brake is released and the energy piles in to the rotor which speeds up to the point where the AGW power balanced friction and windage losses,

@Grimer,

First off, I hope we?ll stay with the regular field terminology and will avoid the reciprocal ?gamma atmosphere? view because not only that it?s not widely accepted but doesn?t seem to contribute anything new and only appears to confuse the issue. Correct me if I?m wrong.

Now, having said that, I treat the H-B hystheresis loop in the usual sense. Thus, as far as I can see you?re arbitrarily pronouncing one of the fields (say, that of the rotor) as the H-field, that is, the field causing the magnetization of the other part (respectively, the stator) and you are studying the created B-field in the other part (the stator) as a function of that H-field.

So, this H-B hystheresis loop is a different  loop from the one each magnet in the rig is characterized by?that is, a loop enclosing an area whose magnitude gives the energy that has been spent to create the permanent magnet with the given induction. That area is untouchable, however. The excess energy we?re talking about which this rig allegedly creates cannot come at the expense of decreasing that area. That should be taken as an axiom and the energy to create the permanent magnets should never be invoked as an explanation of the excess energy we?re seeking.

As far as I can see, you?re calling your H-B dependence for some reason an adiabatic loop while it seems to me it should be called, if at all, either isothermic or isobaric, depending on what you intend to study. I don?t see in this case where the boundary between the system and the environment is which would prevent exchange of heat with the environment, to make the system adiabatic.

So now, up to here we?re into the terminology phase. We have to understand clearly what we really mean under the different terms we use.

Now, stemming from the above I don?t understand at all the ?power direction? and the ?refrigeration direction? mentioned by you. Notwithstanding the fact that even if such a view were correct there should be a full symmetry between the outcomes from these two purported directions. Thus, I don?t see at all how this picture would explain the central issue here?the production of excess energy.

[Yadaraf]

RE:  Lego Version of the WhipMag -- No Kidding

I spent two hours today developing an educational version of the WhipMag using nothing but Lego bricks and Lego magnets.  It spins and makes "magnet noise" just like the other WhipMags I've listened to.  And yes, it is addictive to play with.

It's 100% functional and costs less than $50 to build for those of you who would like to investigate some of the principles of this intriguing device -- or spend time with your kids while everyone learns.

CLaNZeR eat you heart out.   

...  Adjustable rotor magnets.   

...  Adjustable stator magnets.   

...   Flexible and extendable design.   

...  Very colorful, educational, and backed by Lego.   


See it on YouTube!

... Lego WhipMag Video:   http://youtube.com/watch?v=r4-nFd6t9xw


Here are some pics of the new Lego "rig."

Cheers, 

Yada..
.

[ask]

Yada

You are beautiful!

[Grimer]

@   Omnibus

> Now, having said that, I treat the H-B hysteresis loop in the usual sense.
> Thus, as far as I can see you?re arbitrarily pronouncing one of the fields
> (say, that of the rotor) as the H-field, that is, the field causing the
> magnetization of the other part (respectively, the stator) and you are
> studying the created B-field in the other part (the stator) as a function
> of that H-field.

Nope. The stator magnets are the H field the more powerful magnets and operating over their reversible linear range. The rotor magnets are the B-field and operating over their non-linear range.

When I use the terms adiabatic and isothermal I am using them as an analogy with the Carnot cycle.
The area inside the BH loop is not heat energy but magnetic field energy. This is accepted and you will find plenty of references to this. If you go round BH loop one way you gain energy, if you go round it the other you loose energy. This must be true of the BH loop as it is of the Carnot loop. It is a mathematical necessity. It is nothing to do with the exchange of heat, (thermal energy) with the environment but the exchange of magnetic energy (magnetic "heat") between the H field,  which IS the environment as far as the B field magnets (the rotor magnets) are concerned, and the B field.

The loop in the limit must comprise two elements, a quasi-isothermal (note the word quasi) and a quasi-adiabatic) slope. In fact the curve is continuous between the two, more quasi-isothermal at one end and more quasi-adiabatic at the other.

> Thus, I don?t see at all how this picture would explain the central issue
> here?the production of excess energy.

Evidently.

It may help you to read the relevant threads on the Steorn forum,

http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60285&page=1#Item_1

http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60271&page=1#Item_1

[Omnibus]

@Grimer,

Let's start from the beginning. The H-B loop you refer to isn't the usually observed H-B loop which relates an external H field producing the B field in the permanent magnets, correct? The permanent magnets we use are already made, energy has been spent to produce them and so on. The H-B field which you have in mind is something different--you arbitrarily (I understand it's stronger but still that's an arbitrary choice) choose the field of the stators to be the H field, an H field other than the H field that produced the permanent magnetism in the rotor magnet, and this H field causes some B field in the rotors other than the B field which is already there to begin with because these are permanent magnets from the get go, correct? Let's establish this difference first and then go from there.

[Yadaraf]

Yada

You are beautiful!

ask ,

Thanks.  If you build the Lego device you will most definitely have fun trying things out.  Playing around with the oscillating stator is most fun -- especially adding Neos to it, and moving it away from the rotor.  You can find tiny circular Neos at an educational store in your city.  They are from Dowling Magnets.

I hope some kids start playing with the Lego WhipMag, because one of them might stumble into something interesting. In any event, they will have fun studying magnetism.

Lastly, I have immediate access to Lego parts -- $8 per pound -- but there are eBay-like sites where you can buy parts.  At the store, a pack of eight Lego magnets costs $8 (two packs required), the Lego base costs $10, the fun of playing with your own WhipMag instead of just reading about it -- priceless.   

... BrinckLink.com : http://www.brinklink.com

... BrickShelf.com:  http://www.brickshelf.com


Cheers,   

Yada..
.

[Yadaraf]

...
(NOTE:  I seem to be talking to myself on this matter.     Anyone's comment is welcome.)

CSI Yadaraf on the scene.

Cheers,   

Yada..
.

Well done Yadaraf.  CSI indeed. 

Following one of your references I found the following excerpt:

==============================================================
http://www.memagazine.org/mepower01/5thharm/5thharm.html

For the fifth harmonic of the incoming current, 300 electrical degrees separate the pole/phase groups, Bourne said. That's five times the separation of the fundamental phases. But 300 degrees is really minus 60 degrees for a periodic function, Bourne explained.

So adjacent phases of the fundamental and the harmonic frequencies are exactly opposite. For a three-phase machine, that means that the fifth harmonic creates a field of the same number of poles as the fundamental, but with a negative phase sequence, Bourne said. And that field rotates counter to the fundamental, at five times the speed.
==============================================================

In January on Fizzx.com I wrote:

==============================================================
I believe that AGW stator rotation is the point where power being consumed becomes power being gained.

If my belief is correct it follows that anyone who achieves AGW has in fact managed to draw power from the magnetic potential, the magnetic pressure of the environment.

Of course merely achieving AGW will not guarantee the kind of continuous running that Alan has shown us.

To achieve continuous running the power input has to be greater than the power output, obviously; has to be greater in other words that the losses due to windage (air resistance), friction in the bearings, eddy currents and any other losses I haven't thought of.

If the onset of AGW does mark the point at which power is being obtained from the environment then there should be a change in the slowdown of the central rotor.
==============================================================

This move to the fifth harmonic seems to be the key to reversing the travel around the BH loop from the refrigeration cycle already well understood to the power cycle which Steorn have been attempting to harness.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/AlsetalokinPowerBHloop.jpg

Grimer,

Welcome, first of all.

At this point I'm making observations on what I consider to be objective information -- the audio in Al's video.  Sadly, I don't think we have much objective information on Al's rig -- there seems to be confusion on parts, design, etc.  I'm taking a reverse-engineering approach with the audio data:  characterize what Al's machine sounded like and apply engineering principles to achieve the same sound.

Therefore I can say only that I "observed" a fifth harmonic (or subharmonic), but I can't say that it helped or hindered the device.  We know that Al's device ran with the phenomenon and it might have run better without it.  Who can say?

I think it's interesting to note that the fifth harmonic is a function of 360 degree geometry (e.g. Als' rotor).

Q:  How do think B-H curve is affected by the fifth?

Cheers,   

Yada..
.