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[P-Motion]

  I am going to be trying a test soon to see if there is a simple answer found in physics that explains what Thane has happened accross.
 And that is that the RF feedback is nothing more than a magnetic ground.
 How this would happen is that the flow of energy through the rotor acts as a ground for the field of the motor.
 What this would do is compress the field. When this happens, there are 2 effects. The first is a reduction in entropy as a result of thermal heat.
 The second is that because the field of the motor has a greater potential than the RF fed into the rotor, that it can absorb some of the RF. This would help to increase the strength of the motor's field.
 There are 2 ways to test this idea. One is to ground a motor to it's own rotor, and then ground the rotor. I will be trying this with a dc motor to see if it does rotate faster as a result of channeling it's ground energy through the rotor of the motor.
 The second is to show the magnetic field and that it does respond to a "charged" rotor. This might be more difficult to do as it would require using metal shavings to show the magnetic lines. It is supposed to be possible to do it, but I have not tried something like this before.
 The diagram, how ever poorly drawn merely shows the moving of the ground wire from it's normal path, to that of one end of the rotor, with the other end of the rotor going to the earth ground.
 And while this is not overunity which is what Thane is hoping for , if it is something that works, it would still be a more efficient electrical motor.

                                              Jim

[petersone]

Hi Jim
You do'nt think it has anything to do with delayed current,so avoiding Lenz's law.
peter

[P-Motion]

Hi Jim
You do'nt think it has anything to do with delayed current,so avoiding Lenz's law.
peter

  Peter,
 I don't think the current is being delayed.
 I think it might be along the lines of Maxwells Demon.
 What might be happening is that a magnetic circuit is created by grounding through the rotor. With Thane's device, he is using 16 coils. If he used 4, it would be considered a  generator. Either way, he is generating a current.
 With the field, by observing the magnetic lines (hopefully), then how a current being grounded through the rotor effects magnetic fields could be well defined.
 I do know from previous experience that a ground current can increase the electrical potential of the source. This is probably the main reason why I suspect a magnetic circuit existing.

                                                   Jim

edited to clarify thoughts in post

[petersone]

Hi Jim
Thanks for your reply,you are saying it's an effect on the drive motor?
so,if the rotor was driven by,lets say a steam engine,the effect would not be there.
peter

[P-Motion]

Hi Jim
You do'nt think it has anything to do with delayed current,so avoiding Lenz's law.
peter

  Peter,
 One interesting aspect of this is he might be taking advantage of Lenz's Law. If the potential of the interior coil is increased, this would help to create a more excited effect between the 2 fields.
 It's like with mag-lev trains, 2 opposing fields pushing against each other.

                                                Jim

[hydrocontrol]

  Peter,
 One interesting aspect of this is he might be taking advantage of Lenz's Law. If the potential of the interior coil is increased, this would help to create a more excited effect between the 2 fields.
 It's like with mag-lev trains, 2 opposing fields pushing against each other.

                                                Jim

Bingo.  You have the answer. By using finer (30 gauge or smaller) wire Thane delays the forming for the magnetic field in the coil/core until the rotor magnet is top dead center over the coil/core. When the field forms it pushes the rotor in the direction of rotation and increases the RPM. As the rotor is moving past TDC it increases the coil/core magnetic field even more. If the minimum RPM is not achieved then Lenz kicks in too soon and pushes the approaching rotor magnet away instead of forward so the RPM decreases.The key is lots of turns of fine wire and a power conversion away from the rotor which is why Thane is using a step down transformer to convert the high voltage to a lower voltage. As Thane was trying state in his April Fools video the joke is that current needs to flow for Lenz to take effect. Take away the current (thick wire) and replace it with voltage (thin wire) then Lenz goes away. Really what happens is that Lenz is still there but is delayed which can be used for an advantage. That is why the coil has to be shorted to increase RPM.

[petersone]

Hi Hydro
So it's just the voltage leading the current,a power factor thing.I think.
peter

[P-Motion]

Hi Jim
Thanks for your reply,you are saying it's an effect on the drive motor?
so,if the rotor was driven by,lets say a steam engine,the effect would not be there.
peter

  Peter,
 Maybe not. This is something that would require other things to be disproven. As far as I know, Thane has basically only pursued one line of thinking with his setup.
 I have thought of what might be a simple way to test another possibility. This would be by taking an armature of a dc motor. Something like an armature from a starter would work. Then a 12v converter could be used and the aperage to the armature controlled.
 What would need to be done is to wrap a thin piece of metal around the armature. Then when normal current is used, the armature's magnetic lines should show on the thin metal wrapped around it.
 Next would be to ground the power through the rotor. If the field is changed, then this is something that should show itself. Of course, metal shavings would be needed.
 One possibility I have thought of is that Thane has found a way to reduce the flux in the magnetic field around the armature. If so, then this allows the field to do more work.
 Lenz noted with his coil that he used that there was flux. This would be when there is a weakening of the magnetic field around the coil because of the spacing of the wires or as in the case of an armature, the space between windings.
 It is possible that the circuit created by the electricity being grounded through the rotor creates a toroidal magnetic field. If so, this could account for his increased efficiency.

                                                Jim
 edited to run spell check

[P-Motion]

  Hydro & Peter,
 Thane has called it a generator he is using  .
 The link is for anyone interested http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogLeKTlLy5E
Before he inserts the coupler into the air gap, the charge generated by the generator slows the motor (about the 4:00 minute mark in the video).
 After he installs the coupler (5:00 minute mark), the charge from the generator has a path into the induction motor. This is when the effect works.
 This is why I believe the magnetic field of the armature has changed.
 By reducing or eliminating the flux, the emf of the armature will be capable of doing more work.
 What would possibly show this the best is to observe a cross section of the emf. This might be done by placing the armature in a thin sheet of metal (perpendicular to it). Then by placing rubber around the armature above and below the metal. Then when it becomes charged, fine metal shavings could be sprinkled on the metal. It would probably require low current to show the magnetic lines. With more current, the charged field would probably be observed.

                                                  Jim

[petersone]

Hi Jim
Thanks for reply,so you think it may be an effect in the drive motor,if it was a delay of Lenz,then I think a transformer feed with the right hz,would do the same,but I don't think it would.
peter

[P-Motion]

Hi Jim
Thanks for reply,so you think it may be an effect in the drive motor,if it was a delay of Lenz,then I think a transformer feed with the right hz,would do the same,but I don't think it would.
peter

  Hi Peter,
 You might be a little surprised at the reason I'm going to give.
From Wikipedia >>The following is an explanation as to why Lenz's law is true: If the magnetic field associated with this current were in the same direction as the change in magnetic field that created it, these two magnetic fields would combine to give a net magnetic field which would in turn induce a current with twice the magnitude. This process would continue creating infinite current from just moving a magnet; a violation of the law of conservation of energy. <<

 One problem with the last statement is that the potential charge a moving magnet can generate may be limited by it's velocity. I do believe this is accepted. I've heard that super conduction only works near 0 kelvins. If that's true, then the statement made regarding Lenz's Law wasn't properly thought out.
  Basically, flux would be a distortion in the emf.
In the field coils, their emf could run counter. With the armature, maybe.
 The reason why this would be is that there would be 4 indepent emf's. This would mean that on one side of a field coil would be a positive and the other a negative. And the negative would be considered flux.
 This is because the field would be a loop around the field coil.
 If it is the same way with the armature, then what might be happening with Thane's motor is the emf around the armature could be a single field. This is why I called it toroidal. And if it is, then it could be combining with the current in the rotor and increasing it's magnitude.
 I think this is one reason why being able to make a physical observation of the emf would be important. It would be able to show a normal emf around the armature and one with current being supplied through the rotor.
 If it does change the field, then it would be something like an electro-magnetic circuit. Simply put, because of the electrical/magnetic properties of both currents, they would interact.
 If there is a difference, then I believe it is something like that that would help to demonstrate it.

                                       Jim

edited to run spell check

[P-Motion]

  Peter,
 this is how I think the change in fields might work.
 The illustration on the left would be a normal emf around the armature. The one on the right could be one way the field is modified.
 By having the current of the field go from one winding/magnet to the next, it would maintain a flow around the armature.
 This is because it would be similar to having a doughnut around the armature.

                                               Jim

[petersone]

Hi Jim
A complete explanation as usual,if only I could understand half of it!!The core of each coil common though the ring,are you saying that if they were not common,just separate coils and cores,the effect would not be there?
peter

[P-Motion]

Hi Jim
A complete explanation as usual,if only I could understand half of it!!The core of each coil common though the ring,are you saying that if they were not common,just separate coils and cores,the effect would not be there?
peter

  Hi Peter,
 Thanks.
 You do seem to understand the basic concept.
 The space between the coils is where the flux could be occuring. Even though the fields would have the same linear spin, they would be in opposition. I think it might be this flux (distortion) that would be wasted energy.
 And since the generator is input to the rotor, it could be making the emf of the armature the stronger field. What I wonder is if a toroidal emf is formed around the armature, does the field coils respond with the same ? I really don't know       
 Remember when you mentioned in a previous post about the right Hz. ?
 Thane I assume is using 120v. / 60Hz. ac. His generator is definitely dc. The only thing I can think of is that because the emf of the armature is acting on the rotor, that it is some how converting or synchronizing with the current in the rotor.
 If this wasn't happening, then chances are, there would be no effect. It's as they say, 2 wave potentials that have the same wave length can combine and have an amplitude equal to the 2 waves. But if the 2 wave potentials have to much of a difference in their wave lengths, then they would pass each other with little effect on each other.

                                              Jim         

[petersone]

Hi Jim
I'm glad you think I have the basic idea, is it,in your opinion,a reaction with the prime mover,and if the prime mover was isolated,driven by a belt,there would be no reaction?
peter