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Author Topic: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011  (Read 641918 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #180 on: March 21, 2011, 12:49:51 AM »
Okay, back to the topic.
Thanks a lot Rose for posting the higher res scopeshots.

By looking again at the setup at the picture from:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10407.msg278553#msg278553

I can now see, why we see now also the ringing at the battery line.

As this scope head, that measures the battery voltage is put directly at the experimentation board
and not directly at the batteries, we have too much inductance of the connection cable
to have a stable battery voltage and this way we also see the oscillation frequency superimposed
on the battery voltage.

The last scope shot is pretty interesting.
WHen the ground line has not changed to the other scopeshots before, then we see here
a rising of the battery voltage inside these pulses due to almost purely negative current pulses
just flowing back to the battery.

ALso what is NOT good is, that all 3 ground lines from the scope heads
are connected to different screws there on the experimentation board.

For better measurements you need to hook them all into one point ONLY !


Also it should be exactly reported how you measured this 6 Watts and 40 Watts heat
from the heater element.
Only electrically by multiplication of Voltage x amperes or
also calorimetrically ? Just measuring the surface temperature in air with
an laser-pointer temperature measurement meter or how did you measure this ?

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #181 on: March 21, 2011, 01:00:45 AM »
P.S. For not having any measurement artifacts from the
scope and function generator grounds, it would be
wise to run a test, where you disconnect all the scope heads
and also the function generator and try to get it to run
via a small battery powered negative bias voltage.

Then you should be able to see again, if you would
get the same heating results.

I had run some different experiments once,
where I had an scope head connected to a cap
and I wondered, why the cap charged up.

This came somehow from a ground current loop and
some rectifier effect inside the scope.

So be carefull if you use grounded scopes.

Never trust these measurements.

Only the real heat at the heater element measured calorimetrically
can be trusted.

Also would be interesting to see, what will happen,
if you use shorter and thicker wires to your batteries.
Will the oscillation effect then disapear and will
the negative currents flowing back to the battery be different ?


Regards, Stefan.



Offline Magluvin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #182 on: March 21, 2011, 01:01:48 AM »
Thanks  ;]   

One problem is charging them this way when the hub is assembled.
The circuitry involved in the front wheel separates the pack into 3 sectors so the bikes braking recharge (regen)  can just work individual sectors, 12v, I believe because the regen is more effective this way, as it switches between sectors while regen due to not enough being generated to do all at the same time. Regen may get ya an extra mile from a full charge, if there are many stops and goes, of which reduces the 20 mpc due to many acceleration periods from stops.

But if I were to just charge this way, say with a secondary pack, would it fully charge fast?   Perhaps a temp sense circuit could be instilled to the circuit for heat control, as they have I believe 4 in the wheel already for regular charging.
These bikes are sweet, and they were made in the beginning for troops in Afghanistan. Folding frame, dual batt packs, and 30mph on M750X models.  They stopped making them some years ago, but a new company restarted production, but not sure if the same for sure.

Ill keep it short here.  Ill pm you for more info, and thanks for the great info. 

Mags


Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #183 on: March 21, 2011, 07:07:44 AM »
Hi Feynman, I've got an hour before I need to go out.  I'll see how much of this I can cover.

The possibility that the heating element is being powered exclusively by the battery needs to be excluded.  Measuring the input energy via  the four scope traces will establish some degree of confidence in this, so I look forward to a higher resolution of the scope traces to calculate AUC.
I've given some.  There are many more that I'd love to show.  I'm not sure that scopeshots are conclusive.  But they help.

These spreadsheets are important. In the interest of replication and characterization of what you are observing, it would be helpful if all the relavent source data (including raw spreadsheet data) were to be published.  The process of 'peer review' in an open-source community manner requires full disclosure, including source spreadsheets of observations.
This much is tricky.  I know there's a way of downloading those dumps on the internet.  But I'm not sure how.  Whatever's required - I'll need to ask someone to do this for me.  I'll see what I can do.  Meanwhile - nor can I email them.  The files are just way too big.  Again.  There must be a way around this.  Just let me know.   
 
The claim of the battery recharging needs to have the support of experimental observations, results of repeated trials, raw data etc.  Spreadsheets, experimental notes, and/or Video would help.
It is clearly evident during the test operation that the batteries either wobble around a fixed value - or they drop (when we're doing a very high current discharge) and then they steadily climb.  This could be video'd but right now the experiment is not even set up.  I have everything at home.  I could attend to this.  But not for a while yet, for many reasons.

I remember you have mentioned you don't want to bother with battery tests and load tests etc.  I understand this can be time-consuming , but this part is critical.   The batteries are still connected.   They are a possible source of the power to the heating element.  They must be excluded as the power source in order to confirm an anomaly.
Indeed.  We are only going by the measurements and have done no analysis of the charge condition of those batteries.

The voltage data of the battery and the temperature of the heating element over repeated experimental trials that forms the basis in claim 4.4 need to be published if this effect is to be analyzed and/or replicated.     This includes not just a single scope trace, but multiple experimental trials and results  (starting voltage, voltage as a function of time, and ending voltage for all anomalous experimental trials) as compared to the behaviour of the heating element.
Indeed.  We have enough experimental evidence to fill a tome.  That was not the object of the report nor the demo.  Both were only to highlight anomalies to encourage academic research. 

For example, as mentioned previously, someone pointed out that there is a chart for the 'control' results, but there is no such chart for the 'experimental/anomalous' results  (besides scope traces which are too low a resolution).  A chart measuring input voltage, input current, ambient air temp, and temp at load needs to be published for 'anomalous' operation.
Not sure of your point here.  The control chart was published.  Our results were determined against ambient room temperature and that control.  All were referenced accordingly.  If you specifically require a record of the room temperature and the measured temperature on the resistor - then I'll be glad to add this.

Further photographs and/or video of the setup would be helpful.
Definitely en route.  Hopefully tonight - if my own limited abilities allow this.  Else not later than tomorrow.  Today is a public holiday and some of the team can't access the internet except through work.

I think that covers the questions.  Feynman, on a personal note - I'm very well aware of your exceptional experimental abilities.  This is all the more evident as MileHigh seems to need to denigrade them.  There could be no greater endorsement.  And we all know his partialities.  He like the most of OUR.com are frantic to disprove this.  If you were to set up your own apparatus - then that would be a very good thing.  But if you choose not to then I can fully understand that as well.  The claim is outrageous.  If it's proved on a replication then you - like me - will be confronting mainstream interests and thinking.  It's not a happy place to be.  Personally I would suggest that this tedious process of debugging the evidence is probably a better way to go.  And I am satisfied that your skills here are more than adequate. So.  Ask me what aspects of the tests you need to look at and I'll try and present the evidence.  I don't think I need to extrapolate more evidence.  But if that's required will do so.  Just also know that my time is now more heavily constrained.  I have much to do at this end to ensure that these results are better known.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary 

Offline neptune

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #184 on: March 21, 2011, 11:53:00 AM »
@Magluvin .Re BEMF and forward EMF .The more I think about what you said , the more I am convinced you are right .An inductor has the attitude that what was good enough for father is good enough for me . Unlike President Obama , it does not like change .If you try to pass current into it , it resists it as long as it can , causing a slow rise time . Likewise if you try to stop passing current through it , it will try to maintain that current as long as it can by creating a voltage to keep pushing current in the same old direction .
         How did you discover this for yourself? Was it on an oscilloscope ? What I cannot understand is this . Look at the scope shots of Rosemary , and replicators . Look at the point where the pulse ends , and the "magic" oscillation starts . What we see is a big , fat NEGATIVE spike .[OK I lied about the fat bit } Surely we should expect to see a POSITVE spike here ? We need more opinions here from people who went to college less than 50 years ago , unlike me >

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #185 on: March 21, 2011, 12:24:43 PM »
hey Neptune

It does fool ya huh?  lol   Well, in this case, the inductor has no choice but to go bemf when 1 leg is disconnected, either one. But set up some diodes to capture from the coil to a cap, diode in a direction as we intend to get femf, and you will believe 100%.  And it also works in the falstad.com circuit sim. 

But when 1 leg is disconnected as in Roses circuit, the collapse has only its own very tiny capacitance to reference, and will bemf back through the fets diode.   If the coil were to be fully disconnected at both ends as to not allow the energy to leave the coil, it will oscillate at very high freq considering the inductance o the coil and its very tiny capacitance. Most likely for a very short time, but many oscillations.

have to get to work, been up all night with my orbon and its looking gooood.  ;[

Hope that makes sense, and I think that everyone should realize these things, because I believe not too many know of this.

I havnt heard from Rose on this yet.  :-*  But maybe she is checking it out first also before commenting.   ;) 

I didnt bring this up to down her or anyone, I was just cuirous if she knew this because it may make a difference in her experiments if this element is clearly understood. hopefully for the better.   ;D

I think Rose is good people. =]  Her Gollys get me to crack a smile. =]

Mags 


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #186 on: March 21, 2011, 12:43:26 PM »
one more ting.  yes ting.  =]

ya might tink, yes tink, that if you disconnect the leg on the side that current is flowing to, that we would get a spark from the continued current flow, but we do, just not in that direction, it sucks in from the disconnect after the self capacitance bounce.  Now when we diode capture the colapse does not get a chance to bounce and is just forwarded to the receiving cap via flywheel effect. But when the receiving cap gets full, back to bemf we go, cuz the receiving cap wont accept it any longer. So the cap needs to be loaded or forwarded somewhere to avoid this situation.

I had gone over this some months ago on the Energy Amplification thread but not everyone reads that. i should thread it. ;]

 ok  Im tired and have to get to work.  Be back later.

Mags

Offline evolvingape

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #187 on: March 21, 2011, 03:31:56 PM »

yes, but I think also the batteries will discharge after some while.

But the important fact is, that only maybe 6 Watts or less are drawn from the battery,
but 40 Watts of heat are produced at the load resistor and due to the backEMF pulses the batteries
ions are too slow to respond so it holds much longer and gets more capacity
as the backEMF pulses activate deeper lead layers and generate more
battery plate surface inside the battery.

Hitting some NiMh AA batteries with BackEMF pulses I was able to almost
tripple the capacity of my NiMH cells this way.

The same is true for the Bedini charger-energizers...


Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

Yes I understand your point. My previous experience with these types of cells was with industrial cleaning machines and the batteries were always failing within 6 months, often less, depending on how they were used.

Some of the most important information was gleaned from the operator themselves, details on charging cycles, run times, and usage etc. This was often no easy task as the operators rarely spoke decent English!

So the ability of the battery to both store and deliver its energy is highly dependant on how it is used.

In Rosemary's experiments the batteries have a very low load over a relatively short time. When we combine this with the BEMF pulsing, the batteries are effectively being desulfated and regenerated during use. Now this is an interesting application in itself. Normally the desulfation and regeneration are achieved during recharging, when the battery cannot be used.

So with this in mind, it is reasonable to expect with the low load and regeneration occurring that the batteries are going to perform at the same level for very long lengths of time, certainly longer than Rosemary has ever tested for. This would in effect maintain the battery Voltage at the same value as before the tests, for the duration of the tests. But I still see no evidence that more energy is being returned to the battery than is being consumed.

Here are some sites that are selling the PWM regen technology and provide some basic information on it:

http://www.batterylife.co.nz/about-batteries.cfm

http://www.batterylife.co.nz/macbat-battery-regeneration-benefits.cfm

http://www.duoregen.com/

http://www.batteryforlife.com/

http://www.batterylifeplus.com/DUO-REGEN/index.html

There are many more out there if you do some Scroogle searching, and all work in a similar pulsed method, with or without chemical additives to assist the process.

We also need to clarify the issue of how the heat is being measured at the load resistor. Rosemary has already stated her team needs a mathematician, which leads me to believe she does not trust her own math, in which case, neither do I, especially in the absence of raw data to double check the calculations.

Your point about the ringing being caused by separate grounding points is also relevant and needs double checking by retesting and result comparison.

So at this point I must conclude that there are interesting effects occurring in this circuit that require further investigation, but in light of the issues raised so far, the conclusions are invalid. It would be beneficial to move forward by redesigning the experiment completely from the ground up to address the noted problems and perform all the tests again via the scientific method.

I would expect different results to the ones previously achieved, however since Rosemary has already made her claims based on the conclusions drawn from analysis of previous results I expect she will be reluctant to redesign the experiment and do it again, properly.

Time will tell.

RM :)






Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #188 on: March 21, 2011, 03:41:33 PM »
Hi Neptune and Mac - I was hoping to avoid answering you guys because I have no idea what FEMF is.  But don't let that stop you.  It's never a bad thing to ask a few questions. I still depend on those inductive laws for the explanation.  But I'm in a really small minority.

Kindest regards,
Rosie

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #189 on: March 21, 2011, 04:05:51 PM »
By looking again at the setup at the picture from:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10407.msg278553#msg278553

I can now see, why we see now also the ringing at the battery line.  As this scope head, that measures the battery voltage is put directly at the experimentation board and not directly at the batteries, we have too much inductance of the connection cable to have a stable battery voltage and this way we also see the oscillation frequency superimposed on the battery voltage.
If it's superimposed then it's also responsible for a hefty current flow.  We see the same voltage at the drain which means that it's going through the battery - in one or other direction - at each cycle.

The last scope shot is pretty interesting.  WHen the ground line has not changed to the other scopeshots before, then we see here a rising of the battery voltage inside these pulses due to almost purely negative current pulses just flowing back to the battery.
Exactly my point.

ALso what is NOT good is, that all 3 ground lines from the scope heads are connected to different screws there on the experimentation board.  For better measurements you need to hook them all into one point ONLY !
LOL.  You're the only one who noticed.  We address this in the video with full visual reference.  We ran a copper plate at the base of those plugs.  It was the only way we could get all those scope probes at consistent ground reference.

Also it should be exactly reported how you measured this 6 Watts and 40 Watts heat from the heater element.  Only electrically by multiplication of Voltage x amperes or also calorimetrically ? Just measuring the surface temperature in air with an laser-pointer temperature measurement meter or how did you measure this ?
Fully explained in the report.  I'll post that link again.

Regards,
Rosemary

http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/03/report.html

Offline neptune

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #190 on: March 21, 2011, 04:18:31 PM »
Hi Rosemary , I am not surprised that you do not know what FEMF is because it is an expression made up by myself and Magluvin ! It stands for Forward Electromotive Force as opposed to Back EMF . Basically we are arguing that BEMF initially moved forwards ! see posts184 and185 when you get time . It might just be one of the keys to this phenomenon .

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #191 on: March 21, 2011, 04:37:51 PM »
Hi Rosemary , I am not surprised that you do not know what FEMF is because it is an expression made up by myself and Magluvin ! It stands for Forward Electromotive Force as opposed to Back EMF . Basically we are arguing that BEMF initially moved forwards ! see posts184 and185 when you get time . It might just be one of the keys to this phenomenon .

Hi Neptune.  I did read your posts.  Just couldn't get my head around it.  I'm a plodder Neptune.  It takes me forever to understand how other people see things.  But I'll give it another go.

Meanwhile - I think we've got nothing more than inductive laws doing what inductive laws do best.  Here are some of my own questions.

* How is it that the circuit does not 'SWITCH OFF' when that gate bridge is opened? 
* If capacitance is also residual charge and this is being somehow delivered by the MOSFETs - then is it reasonable to expect that this capacitance can result in an excess of 60 amps flowing in either direction?
* If this 'spurious' oscillation (as it's termed by Hamburger et al) is, in fact, that well known  - then why is it also not more widely applied?  It's clearly rather exploitable.

That's a start - anyway.

Kindest regards,
Rosie
  :)


Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #192 on: March 21, 2011, 05:02:21 PM »
Harti - this is for you - to show you the voltage at the drain.

Kindest regards,
Rosie

Channel 1 - shunt
Channel 2 - battery
Channel 3 - gate
Channel 4 - drain

Offline fritz

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #193 on: March 21, 2011, 05:53:04 PM »
So the ability of the battery to both store and deliver its energy is highly dependant on how it is used.

In Rosemary's experiments the batteries have a very low load over a relatively short time. When we combine this with the BEMF pulsing, the batteries are effectively being desulfated and regenerated during use. Now this is an interesting application in itself. Normally the desulfation and regeneration are achieved during recharging, when the battery cannot be used.

So with this in mind, it is reasonable to expect with the low load and regeneration occurring that the batteries are going to perform at the same level for very long lengths of time, certainly longer than Rosemary has ever tested for. This would in effect maintain the battery Voltage at the same value as before the tests, for the duration of the tests. But I still see no evidence that more energy is being returned to the battery than is being consumed.


Battery capacity is as  exact as "best before" statements.
Depending on how you charge them -  you get a charging efficiency of  60% and more.
Depending on how you discharge them you get a broad efficiency range.
An oscilloscope - even a good one - can measure lots of things. If it comes to measure energy - things get complicated.

Last month I build a data logger which is driven by a CR2032 3V Lithium cell. The controller needs 600nA for operation - with a 10uA spike for a fraction of a millisecond.
I downloaded the datasheets from all CR2032 mfgrs.
Somehow they guarantee certain nominal energy for some permanent dc discharge.
My scope gives me a figure of the the integrated energy spike consumed -
But there is no nominal energy rated for that purpose.......






Offline neptune

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Re: Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011
« Reply #194 on: March 21, 2011, 05:55:43 PM »
Hi Rosemary , you asked 3 questions , not specifically of me , but these would be my attempts at answers
 1 I assume you mean why is there a path for conventional current between drain and source when the gate is at zero or negative voltage with respect to ground . I am not sure .A couple of things that may or may not be relevant , When fet is switched ON there is a TWO WAY path between drain and source . also do not forget the zener diode .
2 Short answer is no . there must be another energy source .
3 Because to most people , designing circuits is just a job . Grandad said that parasitic oscillations are a nuisance to be AVOIDED at all costs ,and power was cheap back then .If Grandad did not do it , it cant be done .Or so we are told.
5 hope for some other answers.