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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 727446 times)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #975 on: April 13, 2013, 07:55:05 PM »
@Gyula:

Using the current limitation feature of the laboratory power supply is a very good idea, I will do that when testing the Hall sensors with the transistor H-bridge. My power supply shuts off at 3 A any way, but I will trim it down to 500 mA which the selected P-channel MOSFETS should support easily.

I could do some more tests with a diode across the coil (see the attached scope shots):

It seems that the spikes (no diode across the coil) have a beneficial effect on the turning ring magnet. The spikes seem to pull briefly the S-pole of the ring magnet  towards the coil core and such seem to accelerate the ring magnet. Once the spikes are eliminated by the diode this "help" goes away and the spin rate drops by 30%.

Moving the Hall sensor can not compensate for the "loss of the spikes". With spikes the turn rate is about 110 Hz, with the diode across the coil the turn rate drops to about 70 Hz (13.5 Volt supply Voltage, 15 mA average power draw).

Remarks:

- When the transistor switches on (triggered by the Hall sensor) the coil pushes away the N-pole of the ring magnet.

- It looks like there never was a reverse breakdown of the diode in my initial tests (the LED also did not break down, they are sturdier than one thinks, like the 2N6111 which survives 140 Volt spikes).

- Any way, the reverse breakdown Voltage of LEDs and Diodes was news for me (I never really understood the implications of this value), I learned something.

- I always wondered why the Bedini circuit (and similar ones for monopole rotors) work so well with spinning ring or ball magnets (which are in effect N S N S rotors). May be the spikes are the explanation. The spikes seem to help the other pole to pass the drive coil. But I might be wrong.

Greetings, Conrad

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #975 on: April 13, 2013, 07:55:05 PM »

Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #976 on: April 14, 2013, 12:49:29 AM »
@Quote from Conradelektro:
 
" I always wondered why the Bedini circuit (and similar ones for monopole rotors) work so well with spinning ring or ball magnets (which are in effect N S N S rotors). May be the spikes are the explanation. The spikes seem to help the other pole to pass the drive coil. But I might be wrong".
 
A simple reed switch dosen't need any help letting the other pole pass the coil. I think the bifilar Bedini trigger coil generates a base transister charge from both N and S poles.
 
Bedini's N S circuits are designed for single wire coils. I don't think his bifilar needs any extra help to run a N S array. I don't think Bedini discovered that, I believe it had to be shown to him. The bifilar is ambivilant about a pole face. The approaching  "Magnet Pole" causes an opposite pole to appear in the bifilar. This pole is reinforced by the power pulse. This makes The two pulse SSG a hi torque power hog, compared to the monopole reed switch that pays double the money! The (JonnyDavro, Gadgetmall) 12 volt relay inductor causes the kind of pulse width modification that retards that uneeded second pulse and allows us to maximize economy. Like an Ozzie motor pulse trimmer. Input can be turned down to under a hundred millivolts to power a hi speed spinner. I have to short around the inductor to start my neo sphere, it inhibits the performance so much. Once it gets going you can pick up with it and speed up for practically nothing.
 
"Skipping" from from spikes may help explain the sudden bursts of speed. Also, very high speed causes the bifilar to generate coil capacitance, which induces resistance to change in current direction in the coil. This results in bifilar air core "Lenz Delay".
 
The real benifit of Bedini's circuit is the primary flyback. After ""Lenz Drag" is circumvented, our bemf harvest yields a tiny yet proud gain.
 
Two Hall effect transisters is a bad idea!
 
 

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #977 on: April 14, 2013, 02:48:52 AM »
Conrad:

My compliments on your setup and your nice clean scope captures and showing your schematic.  Also, showing were you put both contacts of your scope probe is very important and everybody should do that.

Quote
It seems that the spikes (no diode across the coil) have a beneficial effect on the turning ring magnet. The spikes seem to pull briefly the S-pole of the ring magnet  towards the coil core and such seem to accelerate the ring magnet. Once the spikes are eliminated by the diode this "help" goes away and the spin rate drops by 30%.

You almost have it there but the logic is inversed.  What's happening is that when you have the spikes, let's call that the "normal" speed.  So there is no beneficial effect to the spikes.  When you add the diode, the speed is being reduced.  In other words adding the diode causes drag on the rotor and slows it down.  So with the spikes is the normal rotor speed and adding the diode causes a detrimental effect on the rotor speed.

This is all shown in the lower left scope trace that that looks like a square wave.  The voltage is near-zero when the transistor is switched on and this is what you would expect.  When the transistor switches off the voltage is about -14 volts.  This shows that when the transistor switches off the coil is continuously discharging it's stored energy through the diode.  For example, if the voltage across the diode is normally one volt and your power supply voltage is 13 volts, then the scope trace will always display -14 volts when the transistor is switched off.

Notice how you arrive at that voltage:  If the power supply is set to 13 volts, with your probe connections that will measure -13 volts.  If current is flowing through the diode, then the diode causes another voltage drop of one volt to give you a scope reading of -14 volts.  Notice that you never see any EMF waveform induced in the coil like in your upper-left scope capture.  Since you don't see an EMF waveform in the coil, that's telling you that the coil is actively discharging energy into the diode during the entire transistor off time.

That means that current is continuously flowing through the coil.  Current is increasing in the coil when the transistor is on, and decreasing in the coil when the transistor is off but it never reaches zero.  With respect to your rotor, the rotor gets a push when the transistor is on to make it spin faster.  When the transistor is off, the coil does not "shut off" and therefore it creates a pull on the rotor to slow it down.  Assume that the transistor switches on at top-dead-center.  That starts the push.  After a certain rotation angle if the coil does not switch off, the push all of a sudden becomes a pull because the rotor magnet polarity has changed.  So with the diode you get an undesirable pull on the rotor that slows it down.

Synchro:

When you are talking about pulse motor circuits and bifilar coils you have to be specific.  Just making general comments won't work.  I am assuming that when you say "bifilar coil" you are talking about two separate coils wound around the same bobbin.  I am also assuming that they will not be made to work in self-cancellation mode because that makes no sense.  So you have four terminals for the two separate wires that make up the bifilar coil.  How do you connect each one of those four terminals into a pulse motor circuit?  Can you draw a schematic because that's 1000 times better than a verbal description.

You state:

Quote
I don't think his bifilar needs any extra help to run a N S array. I don't think Bedini discovered that, I believe it had to be shown to him. The bifilar is ambivilant about a pole face. The approaching  "Magnet Pole" causes an opposite pole to appear in the bifilar. This pole is reinforced by the power pulse.

I have no idea what means because I don't even know how you wire a bifilar coil into a pulse motor.  If you want to clarify your statements and show a schematic and even add a timing diagram, even if it is a hand-drawn sketch, then people will have a much better chance of understanding you.

MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #977 on: April 14, 2013, 02:48:52 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #978 on: April 14, 2013, 03:09:26 AM »
Conrad:

Quote
I always wondered why the Bedini circuit (and similar ones for monopole rotors) work so well with spinning ring or ball magnets (which are in effect N S N S rotors). May be the spikes are the explanation. The spikes seem to help the other pole to pass the drive coil. But I might be wrong.

There is a very simple explanation for this.

Suppose that you have a pulse motor with a rotor with four poles, all North facing out.  When the rotor magnets fly by the drive coil the coil switches on after top-dead-center to give the rotor a positive push.

Now, what happens if you turn two of the rotor magnets around so that the rotor magnets are N-S-N-S facing out?

The answer is that the North magnets will give you the same results - the coil energizes after top-dead-center to give the rotor a positive push.  The South magnets will cause the coil to energize before top-dead-center to give the coil a positive pull.  The pull will stop at top-dead-center, which is what you want.

To understand this more just look at the transistor triggering waveform from the pick-up coil for a North-out and for a South-out spinning rotor magnet.

MileHigh

Offline hoptoad

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #979 on: April 14, 2013, 06:05:21 AM »
Hi Conrad, A coil of many turns is not required, I got acceleration under load and short circuit using
a small coil of 270 turns with 7 mH and only 0.8 Ohms resistance.

I simply used the correct amount of capacitance so that the unloaded coil presented a fairly large Lenz drag
to the motor, then when the load is added or the output shorted the Lenz drag is reduced and so the motor speeds up the rotor.
There may be some resonant kick back to the rotor, but mainly it speeds up because the actual load is reduced by adding the
electrical load or short circuit.

Look at the scope shots.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFWin-crxQY

By winding many turns the resonant frequency of the coil is reduced into the range of operation of the motor generator, without adding a capacitor, same effect
but my way has less resistance.

If the effect is so unique and unusual, then how come i can do it with the small coil I used and how come i can do the transformer thing as well.

It is a frequency induced restriction of the maximum current and a reduction in Lenz drag when a load is added.

The "prime mover" I used was a universal motor powered by DC from a boost converter, the motor was designed for 240 volts but I used only 20 to 35 volts.  ;)

We can see the effect is obvious with resonant systems. The electrical load reduces the total system loading by altering the parameters of the
circuit. The load on the supply is reduced, that is why the rotor speeds up when it is a generator and why the input reduces with a transformer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRzQ_CO9vnw

Here's more with a regular transformer.

Input reduction under load effects ect..  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxde9qga79c

Same transformer lighting a globe efficiently with full rated voltage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pzqxQwxVGA

This is a normal effect, i see no reason why it shouldn't happen if the conditions are made to allow it to happen.

Normal generators/transformers are designed to be efficient and power loads when they are added with full voltage and power,
so they don't show the effects of a poorly designed and used generator or transformer.

All reactive power is just applied power not yet used, it doesn't come from anywhere but the supply.

Cheers
Indeed  .... KneeDeep

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #979 on: April 14, 2013, 06:05:21 AM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #980 on: April 14, 2013, 10:11:47 AM »
@MileHigh: thank you for taking the time to explain my measurements and tests. This is what I always hope for in this forum, a discussion of specific set ups and circuits.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #981 on: April 14, 2013, 11:56:47 AM »
Hi Conrad,

I think that controlling the Hall sensor by the ring magnet may not give you as much flexibility in adjusting the length of the ON time for the switch as you would receive from a separate, smaller sized magnets on a separate disk.
With the ring magnet the Hall device can sense the same flux strength during very nearly 180° of a full 360° rotational cycle, as is shown by the 50% duty cycle of the switching pulses. I think this is why you found that you could not compansate for the "loss of the spikes", whereever you position the Hall sensor within a hemisphere volume the flux strength is more or less the same during a 180°rotational cycle.

Keep up the great work.

rgds,  Gyula

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #981 on: April 14, 2013, 11:56:47 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #982 on: April 14, 2013, 03:42:31 PM »
Synchro:

When you are talking about pulse motor circuits and bifilar coils you have to be specific. Just making general comments won't work. I am assuming that when you say "bifilar coil" you are talking about two separate coils wound around the same bobbin. I am also assuming that they will not be made to work in self-cancellation mode because that makes no sense. So you have four terminals for the two separate wires that make up the bifilar coil. How do you connect each one of those four terminals into a pulse motor circuit? Can you draw a schematic because that's 1000 times better than a verbal description.

You state:

  Quote <blockquote>I don't think his bifilar needs any extra help to run a N S array. I don't think Bedini discovered that, I believe it had to be shown to him. The bifilar is ambivilant about a pole face. The approaching "Magnet Pole" causes an opposite pole to appear in the bifilar. This pole is reinforced by the power pulse.</blockquote> 
I have no idea what means because I don't even know how you wire a bifilar coil into a pulse motor. If you want to clarify your statements and show a schematic and even add a timing diagram, even if it is a hand-drawn sketch, then people will have a much better chance of understanding you.

MileHigh
 
This picture is exactly what I'm talking about: Note the 4 wires 2 ends. Look below it, you'll see a red wire Tesla bifilar wraped on a  thread spool, in series with a 12 volt reed switch. That's a "Mach Speed" circuit. I would post a schematic for it, but all it takes to spin a diametric tube is a battery between one end of the bifilar coil and one end of the reed switch. The other end of the bifilar coil attaches to the loose end of the reed switch. The power pulse passes directly through the reed switch. Three componants comprise this simpelist circuit. I can't explain why it seemingly begins to power itself over 25k.

Offline hanon

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #983 on: April 14, 2013, 04:47:08 PM »
Skycollection has posted a video (Confirming the delayed Lenz Effect) with a message for replicators

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP-k-AW-ejM

Message:  A MESSAGE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING PANCAKE COILS, "NOT CONFUSE" ...! THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE BI-FILAR PANCAKE COIL IS EASY BUT "IT DOESN´T MEAN THAT YOU ARE GOING TO DELAY THE LENZ EFFECT", THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE YOU WILL LOSE TIME AND MONEY. MY PTOTOTYPES OF PANCAKE COIL HAS INSIDE OF THE COIL A COMPONENT THAT IS ESSENTIAL TO DELAY THE LENZ EFFECT, FOR THAT REASON NOT HAVE BEEN REPLICATED.

According to the speech in the video he is going to explain it step by step in the future

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #983 on: April 14, 2013, 04:47:08 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #984 on: April 14, 2013, 05:49:40 PM »
I believe the series reed switch circuit accelerates the spinner and slips "Lenz effect". The setup achieves unity beyound threshold speed just like the twin self looped zero draw spirals. Bearingless spinners reduce friction loss to a minimum. I believe a Neo Sphere spinner inside a bifilar "Spiral Knot", pulsed by a reed switch in series with a battery, would demonstrate the zero amp draw "Lenz Delay Unity" threshold r.p.m with an amp meter and Laser tach.
 
We don't need a seperate self looped output coil to achieve "Unity" from "Lenz Cleansing". One levitating bearingless spinner inside a spifilar air core will balance the exchange after reaching "Glide Speed" just shorted to a battery throgh a reed switch!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #985 on: April 14, 2013, 05:55:39 PM »
Synchro1:

Thanks for clarifying what you mean in your case when your say bifilar coil.

Here are some comments about that and anybody is free to do their own testing on the bench to confirm this.

Supposing that you have a 500-turn regularly-wound coil and you have a (250 + 250)-turn bifilar coil as shown in your diagram.  The main difference between the two is that the bifilar coil posses the capability to a have higher voltage potential for the inter-winding self-capacitance of the coil.  However, the two coils possess the same number of turns and have the same inductance.

The way capacitance works is that it has more and more effect the higher and higher the frequencies that you are working with.  The pulse motor works at very very low frequencies.  Therefore it's expected that there will be no noticeable effects from using the bifilar coil in a pulse motor as compared to a regular coil.  In both coils, the self-capacitance between windings might be on the order of tens or hundreds of picofarads.  That is an extremely small capacitance.  In addition, the capacitance is "transient" and only exists at very very high frequencies.  There is no insulating dielectric between two plates like in a normal capacitor.  There is actually a conductor between the "plates" which are the windings of the coil.

Relative to the bullet points in that graphic, and comparing a 500-turn regular coil with the (250+250)-turn bifilar coil you get the following:

1) The bifilar coil will not respond faster to the firing pulse
2) The bifilar coil will not have an increased magnetic field strength
3) The back-EMF spike produced will not be larger for the bifilar coil.  The higher-voltage on the inter-winding capacitance may slow down the slew rate of the back-EMF spike and also slightly reduce its amplitude
4) There will not be any increased generator output.  Generators operate at low frequencies and the bifilar capacitance will be insignificant and not have any affect at all

So, in pulse motor application it's highly unlikely you will see any difference in performance when you compare a 500-turn regular coil with the (250+250)-turn bifilar coil.  Any pulse motor keeners that want to check this just have to make sure that the two coils that they test and compare have the same number of turns and approximately the same dimensions.

As a final comment myself personally I would not call this a "bifilar coil."  "Bifilar" implies two separate conductors where the coil being discussed here is actually a single-conductor coil.  It needs another name so that it is not confused with a true bifilar coil.  Perhaps call it a "high-voltage self-capacitance" coil or something like that.

MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #985 on: April 14, 2013, 05:55:39 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #986 on: April 14, 2013, 06:03:36 PM »
Skycollection has posted a video (Confirming the delayed Lenz Effect) with a message for replicators

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP-k-AW-ejM

According to the speech in the video he is going to explain it step by step in the future

The best output reading I can see in this video is 14.25 Volt at 0.18 A, which is about 2.5 Watt. (I just take the highest readings on his meters which are visible, it might not mean anything tangible.)

Unfortunately we can not see any input power to the rotor driver. But I guess we would have heard some bragging in case the indication for OU were hight.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline synchro1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #987 on: April 14, 2013, 06:11:49 PM »
@Milehigh,
 
            I beg your pardon here, but you're spreading stark falsehoods about the bifilar's attributes. Two coils with Iron nail cores wraped differently as you describe will pick up an uneven number of tacks when charged.   
 
Here's a test done by degrees of magnetic compass deviation:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iATOcAmbz3E

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #988 on: April 14, 2013, 06:21:36 PM »
Synchro1:

Anyone can check what I am saying by doing their own bench tests and compare he two different types of coils.  I have explained the logic for the lack of differences between the two types of coils in a pulse motor application.

If you use ether type of coil as an electromagnet, then that's a DC application.  If you set up a very controlled experiment to pick up tacks you should not see any differences between the two coils.

I also looked at the clip that you linked to where the guy shows the compass deviation.  The guy is making a fundamental mistake in that clip and therefore coming to an incorrect conclusion. Can anybody spot the mistake?

MileHigh

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #989 on: April 14, 2013, 09:09:52 PM »
Hi Conrad,

It occured to me to show you romerouk's coil switching schematic done also with a Hall sensor and a pnp transistor and the reason I refer to it is he connected a diode across the collector-emitter of his transistor.  I thought you might wish to test it.
You can see the drawing here http://www.overunity.com/3842/muller-dynamo/msg284131/#msg284131 in driver_coils_setup.jpg or redrawn by Groundloop in romerouk_setup.jpg a bit scrolling down the thread.  Your UF4007 diode is a good one to use there too.
About the purpose of this diode: I think the induced voltage in his coils from the rotor magnets is fed back to the battery via the diode.  If this is so, then your input current draw from the power supply should be a little bit reduced when you use that diode.
EDIT: no need for doing any other change in your switching circuit, just connect the diode and watch input current draw and maybe the waveform across the coil as before. The possibility that this diode may cause Lenz drag is not zero though...

rgds, Gyula

 

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