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Author Topic: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect  (Read 715847 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1155 on: April 21, 2013, 03:05:12 AM »
Many things have been discussed that are worth a second read.  The capacitance is insignificant, should be ignored.  No special effects related to capacitance will be observed and it's the wrong investigative path to go down.  You don't discuss voltage excitation for coils in the context of this test - what counts is current and the number of turns.  Different gauges of wire with the same number of turns will give you the same strength of electromagnet as long as you ensure that the current flow is the same.  That obviously will not be the same case if you connect them to the same voltage source.

"Neutralizing the self inductance" is an awkward and misleading use of 19th century phrasing.  All it means is that when the SB coil resonates that when the capacitive voltage is at it's max, the current in the coil is zero, and the inductance is "neutralized."  The property of inductance is still there.

As an exercise for anybody that is interested go back to Farmhand's coil measurements where I showed that in a typical example the coil's inductive energy storage is 17,000 times the capacitive energy storage.  Calculate the resonance frequency.  Then, with the same initial conditions that I stated, calculate the peak voltage in the coil due to the self-capacitance when it resonates.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1155 on: April 21, 2013, 03:05:12 AM »

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1156 on: April 21, 2013, 03:08:46 AM »
Well I think Tesla intended that the patent device is for pulsed DC or AC excitation. I'll have to read the patent better.
But the inductance of the coil will only be neutralized at a given frequency as far as I can tell, so that rules out DC
except for maybe when the coil is first energized as you say, but if the coil was energized for long periods that would be of little benefit.
It may allow a faster magnetization of the core if the core will allow it. Not sure. With huge coils it could be very helpful.

Most of the comments and tests are about a steady state DC. Not sure why.

Still I'm going by the patent claims, and what is written there by Tesla.

I guess it depends on where your point of interest is. Mine concern is with the patent claims, what the claims actually are and if they are true or false.

Also the other information given in the patent is useful.

Cheers

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1157 on: April 21, 2013, 03:16:11 AM »
Basically what I see is, some people are making claims on Tesla's behalf that he did not make, or just making claims that are not
entirely correct ect. and that brings in people who try to discredit Tesla based on the errant claims other people imply he made.

I'm here to try to clarify what Tesla actually claimed, and see if it is true or false. Simple. I see myself as being in the middle.
I'm no expert but I think too many people attribute claims to Tesla he did not make. And too many people try to discredit Tesla based on those
claims made by others not by Tesla. I'm not infallible, but I seek the truth.

Cheers

All this dubious claims and pseudo skeptic discrediting of Tesla is unnecessary. All it does is put down a great inventor and fill pages with rubbish.

It also creates more confusion and more dubious claims as well as divide people and cause tension.


Who else is in the middle with me ? Anyone ?

..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1157 on: April 21, 2013, 03:16:11 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1158 on: April 21, 2013, 03:25:08 AM »
Farmhand:

My interpretation of the patent is that Tesla patented a way to make a coil into a resonator.  It doesn't even possess extra capacitance as compared to a regular coil.  It just facilitates higher voltage and therefore higher energy storage in the capacitive component of the coil.  The patent doesn't say anything beyond that.  It's not surprising, this was the dawn of the electrical revolution.

I am going to guess that the application might have been for his experiments in his own laboratory.  I don't think it ever really saw the light of day in a practical application.

If you want to push the envelope and open up the definition to include LC resonators in general, then LC resonators are used in RFID tags.  You pulse an RFID tag with a short burst of radio energy, and the LC resonator in the RFID tag stores some energy for a few milliseconds.  That stored energy powers the RFID tag for a fraction of a second so it has a temporary power source to broadcast out the bits it has been programmed with back to the RFID reader.

MileHigh

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1159 on: April 21, 2013, 03:29:24 AM »
If the "COIL FOR ELECTROMAGNETS" did anything like produce anomalous energy and Tesla noticed it he would have said so I believe.

As far as I know of the only claims he made for the arrangement was the two claims at the end of the patent.
As far as patents go they are fairly clear cut and reasonably easy to understand.

Some patents make claims that are difficult to even read not to mention understand what they are trying to claim.  ;D

...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1159 on: April 21, 2013, 03:29:24 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1160 on: April 21, 2013, 03:32:20 AM »
Farmhand:

My interpretation of the patent is that Tesla patented a way to make a coil into a resonator.  It doesn't even possess extra capacitance as compared to a regular coil.  It just facilitates higher voltage and therefore higher energy storage in the capacitive component of the coil.  The patent doesn't say anything beyond that.  It's not surprising, this was the dawn of the electrical revolution.

I am going to guess that the application might have been for his experiments in his own laboratory.  I don't think it ever really saw the light of day in a practical application.

If you want to push the envelope and open up the definition to include LC resonators in general, then LC resonators are used in RFID tags.  You pulse an RFID tag with a short burst of radio energy, and the LC resonator in the RFID tag stores some energy for a few milliseconds.  That stored energy powers the RFID tag for a fraction of a second so it has a temporary power source to broadcast out the bits it has been programmed with back to the RFID reader.

MileHigh

Well then I have a simple question. Are the claims in the patent true and correct ? Yes or No.

Cheers


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1161 on: April 21, 2013, 03:44:22 AM »
Farmhand:

Yes they are true.  The big mistake is to think that this 19th century patent is automatically applicable to pulse motors.

One other point I forgot to mention.  It's possible that the pancake spiral design for the coil is what relates back to the "electromagnet" angle.  I think most big electromagnets like for scrap metal applications (one sided) are formed like this.  The reason being is that then you have a more even distribution of magnetic field strength across the entire surface of the disk.

It's actually hard to visualize that in your head when you look at the individual loops.  There is a lot of magnetic field cancellation going on between adjacent loops like that, it's very complicated.  So you close your eyes and just visualize the entire disk as a "swirling disk of current" and ignore the individual loops, i.e.; no individual conductors.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1161 on: April 21, 2013, 03:44:22 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1162 on: April 21, 2013, 04:01:11 AM »
Check out this amazing pulse motor!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsmehZrqsPM

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1163 on: April 21, 2013, 04:42:18 AM »
If the "COIL FOR ELECTROMAGNETS" did anything like produce anomalous energy and Tesla noticed it he would have said so I believe.



I follow that line also. Never said anything about OU. But I will look for the differences, as Tesla stated there is.  ;) And I get what MH is saying about the capacitance being small. But they are way more significant than what a normal coil has, because of the voltage differences. Every wire turn has a wire next to it that is 50% of the total input voltage, no matter how many turns. A normal coil, the more turns makes for less difference in potential between adjacent turns.

Imagine a coil made of 8000 turns of 26awg wire, in layers on a spool, and another coil wound bifilar, 26awg 4000 turns. This will have the same amount of copper on each spool. Imagine the small amount of voltage difference between adjacent turns of the singlefi coil. It would have to be 8000v to have 1 v between adjacent turns. But the bifi will have 4000v between turns. That is not an insignificant difference in no way shape or form. Or if we have only 8v applied to the coil, turn for turn would only be .001v. The bifi would be 4v. This is big. The reason its big is, the higher the voltage for one, the more the attraction to be charged and more current in order to do so. Tesla said that there is lots of power in a tiny capacitor. 

I have to look it up, there was an article that talked about a large coil of say 60H and a cap of  I believe it was 40pf, in that range anyways, and it rings at 60hz. It caught me a bit as I never imagined using a 40pf cap for any involvement in resonance with any coil and ring that low. I gave me a sense of perspective. ;D

Also there are ways of increasing that capacitance greatly as I had described and shown a diagram of the other day.

As for the DC use subject, this is what the guy used with the nails. So far nobody here has shown the experiment repeated as it was prescribed. Putting them in series kills the ability for the bifi to charge up as it would alone. That test only proves that the coils running full tilt produce approximately the same magnetic field while constant DC current  is running through them.

Tesla does mention alternating current there. So maybe he doesnt intend it as an ELECTROMAGNET.  ???    ;D

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1163 on: April 21, 2013, 04:42:18 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1164 on: April 21, 2013, 05:50:57 AM »
It's very interesting I agree. I think an electromagnet can be AC and still attract ferrous metals but the attraction would not be continuous. Not sure.

Anyway I have some idea's for experiments. Any results I get that seem interesting I might post in a more relevant thread.

Cheers

Offline Mk1

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1165 on: April 21, 2013, 08:13:24 AM »
"@all


Hi , i know that one i used to have a pdf copy of a old book called AC electromagnet , and it could pick up any thing plastic you name it .

I will see it i could find it again i tried before without succes.

Mark

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1165 on: April 21, 2013, 08:13:24 AM »
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Offline hoptoad

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1166 on: April 21, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »
It's very interesting I agree. I think an electromagnet can be AC and still attract ferrous metals but the attraction would not be continuous. Not sure.

Anyway I have some idea's for experiments. Any results I get that seem interesting I might post in a more relevant thread.

Cheers

I vaguely remember an AC electromagnet discussion in tech school many (very many LOL) years ago. However it was not really an AC electromagnet, though it was referred to as one.

Instead, the coil comprised a bifilar winding with each winding connected in parrallel but with a diode connected in singular series with each single winding, in opposite conducting directions. The coils polarities were such that each half phase of the AC supply produces a net unidirectional magnetic polarity, mimicking that of a single coil connected to dc. There is however a pulse ripple associated with each half wave of the supply, resulting in a varying magnetic strength (oscillation) similar to pulsed dc.

Cheers

Offline ALVARO_CS

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1167 on: April 21, 2013, 09:21:52 AM »
Check out this amazing pulse motor!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsmehZrqsPM

MileHigh
thank you for this sophisticated piece of technological experiment, could not stop laughing for a good half  an hour !! ;D ;D ;D
cheers

Offline hoptoad

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1168 on: April 21, 2013, 11:35:08 AM »
MileHigh
thank you for this sophisticated piece of technological experiment, could not stop laughing for a good half  an hour !! ;D ;D ;D
cheers
Me Too !

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
« Reply #1169 on: April 21, 2013, 01:43:43 PM »
Hi Folks,

Synchro1 and Magluvin objected the series connection of the two coils to be compared so I repeated the tests separately.
OF course I used 0.75 V DC voltage from my variable supply to have about 430 mA DC current into any one of the (separated) coils, I used the same coils as yesterday. (DC resistance for both is 1.6 Ohm.)
(Synchro1 also objected that the two bolts were too close to each other so they influenced magnetically each other. Well, as I held them in my hand I did not feel any such interaction (nor attraction, nor repulsion). IF these electromagnets had the force of an equivalent Neo cylinder magnet I surely was not able to keep them in my palm like that, they would either jump away or snap together for sure. What I felt was as if they were weak BaFe ceramic magnets.)

This time I used small nuts as objects to be lifted because I thought they fit here better than paper clips for picking them up. I sorted out 50 - 50 nuts to make two separate groups, 50 for the single and 50 for the bifilar coil tests.
I started with the single wire coil, I pushed the head of the single wire bolt into the pile of 50 nuts, switched on the supply (430mA) and slowly lifted up the bolt and moved to a clear area to separate the nuts from the pile and count how many were lifted. I repeated this till all the 50 nuts were used up from that pile.
Then I did the same test with the bifilar wire electromagnet, using the other pile of 50 nuts.  Here are the results:

Single wire coil test        Bifilar wire coil test

first lift     11 nuts                   12 nuts
second lift  8 nuts                     9 nuts
third lift    13 nuts                    11 nuts
fourth lift    9 nuts                    10 nuts
fifth lift        9 nuts                     8 nuts

This shows the performance of the two electromagnets practically the same.

Gyula

 

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