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(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
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Author Topic: Simple to build isolation transformer that consumes less power than it gives out  (Read 248394 times)

Offline magneto_DC

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  • Posts: 31

Parameters you asked:
iron trafo: very thin wire, 0.0x mm thick, resistance was 165 ohms. Coil was small, atmost 10 mm wide. If you break trafo made by chinese company named Jutai then you will get the same coil I used. Trafo was rated to 20 watts and it was used to light up 80 small bulbs, not leds.


Hi Jack Noskills,

as far as I understand, you had great success with the two identical 1:1 iron trafos. You already gave all necessary data: rated Voltage, Power, R (Winding) = 165 Ohms. (Impedanz some hundred Ohms at 50Hz maybe).

I would like to know, what kind of  1:1 trafo is it?

Is it 230V primary / 230V secondary, so the windings ratio would be (nearly): N1 / N2 = ~1300 / ~1400  ??
Or
Is it N1 / N2 = ~1300 / ~1300 = 1 : 1, so the output voltage is always something lower than the input voltage ??

Thanks for your clearification in advance.

Regards
magneto_DC

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Offline Jack Noskills

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  • Posts: 346
I smashed two identical christmas light trafos rated 20 watts, 220V/50Hz. I took primaries from them and made one 1:1 trafo out of those on the same laminated iron core, so coils were identical. Same junk that I used when I was playing with Thane's BiTT concept, in a bit modded version though. I used alternate return path instead of air gap, it was enough to change my mindset correctly towards FE.
 
Two such iron trafos as connected in the picture in page 1 proved to me output does not affect input and that there is more power at output than is used at input. This helped as I didn't have working meter available. When I saw it first time I was amazed, did not expect it to happen. I expected to get BiTT effect in single core. The first trafo is not necessary unless you want to protect source if power is pushed back, or if you need to use higher voltage to get more power. Can it push back, I don't know. Furthermore, adding cap in the second trafo improved ratio, less power was consumed and more power at output. That was a lucky shot. This means input side can be tuned so that it consumes only milliwatts, what is consumed by DC resistance of the coils. It is much easier to achive this without tuning cap, just put enough wire in the coils, or use high enough frequency to reach high impedance state.

Offline e-

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  • Posts: 5
Hello, I read the forum a long time, now would like to contribute to research.

I was looking at the schematic made ​​by Jack Noskills and I realize that is the same as an autotransformer. So, if there really is OU, this would not be due to the configuration of the coils but the high impedance of the circuit.

Below I show the points of equivalence. What do you think?

I'm thinking about disassemble two microwave transformers and use the two high voltage coils to make a high impedance isolation transformer.



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Offline e2matrix

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  • Posts: 1863
Hello, I read the forum a long time, now would like to contribute to research.

I was looking at the schematic made ​​by Jack Noskills and I realize that is the same as an autotransformer. So, if there really is OU, this would not be due to the configuration of the coils but the high impedance of the circuit.

Below I show the points of equivalence. What do you think?

I'm thinking about disassemble two microwave transformers and use the two high voltage coils to make a high impedance isolation transformer.
Thanks for joining in.  I think the difference - at least in Jack's initial circuit is that he has 2 separate cores whereas the autotransformer you show has just one core.   Your idea of using 2 MOT's sounds interesting.  I'm visualizing an easy way of just joining the cores mechanically (and electrically) but using only the only the HV windings on each thus giving a 1:1 if they are the same type.  Not sure if that would work but it came to mind.  I've got a lot of MOT's laying around so I might give that a try.

Offline Jack Noskills

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  • Posts: 346
e-, your setup is exactly the same thing I have. If there would be cap in the coil that has no load then it begins to look like Don Smith circuit without primary and without diodes, interesting similarity. Cap is not needed if it is possible to vary frequency.
 
Those two coils need to interact so they must be on the same core. The first version I used had two trafos, later on I realised only one is needed to create the effect.

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Offline e-

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Thanks for joining in.  I think the difference - at least in Jack's initial circuit is that he has 2 separate cores whereas the autotransformer you show has just one core.   Your idea of using 2 MOT's sounds interesting.  I'm visualizing an easy way of just joining the cores mechanically (and electrically) but using only the only the HV windings on each thus giving a 1:1 if they are the same type.  Not sure if that would work but it came to mind.  I've got a lot of MOT's laying around so I might give that a try.


Ok, but Jack says he is only using one transformer and it works.

I thought about removing the HV coil of a MOT and fit in the other, but do not know if I can because the resin used to glue. I would like some opinion on how to remove the resin.

Another way would be to remove only the laminations "I" of the two MOTs and fit it all formed a single nucleus with the two parties "E" without having to remove any coil.

Offline Jack Noskills

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  • Posts: 346
I have tested E-E and it works fine too so it is better to use that instead of totally ruining the MOT. You can use one coil from each side, leave the others unconnected so they have no effect. You can use those for probing voltages when system is live. Don't know how a MOT looks like, start with finer grade wire first if there is difference in wire gauge.
 

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Offline penno64

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  • Posts: 459
Hi Jack,
 
I would like to have a go at replicating.
 
Access to quite a few MOTs and a variac.
 
For other experiments, I have removed the top layer of transformer steel and retained what would
appear to be an E core with the both the heavy and light gauge windings.
 
If I am understanding correctly, you are suggesting to get 4 of the high resistance (finer gauge wire) and
set two of these on a core. Make a second then, use the two pairs to create your one to one twin transformers.
 
Hope I am on the right track.
 
Pics to follow soon.
 
Penno
 
 

Offline Jack Noskills

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  • Posts: 346
You can start with just one trafo.
Very first test is to put one coil via some bulbs, if they light up very bright then it most likely does not make sense to continue. Unless you have access to high frequency AC source, then things should become interesting. If you put two coils and measure this idle power flowing and you get below 10 watts, then there might be a chance. In my tests idle power of one 400 meter coil was 134 watts, but with 2 coils it was less than 1 watt. So it worked but it could have been much more powerfull if the idle power would have been one watt with just 400 meter coil.
 
Thank you for giving this a try.

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Offline penno64

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  • Posts: 459
Hi Jack,
 
Thanks for the reply.
 
To be sure, are you suggesting two high impedance (100 ohm) identical coils on the same
"E" core?
 
 
Penno

Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
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  • Posts: 346
Yes, high impedance is the working principle. Higher the better. High impedance is created by number of turns, core permeability, high frequency or tuning cap. Tuning cap is the most difficult one to find.
 
I used E-I and toroid cores, E-E face to face should also work in case you cannot make E-I without trashing to MOT.

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Offline penno64

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  • Posts: 459
Thanks,
 
Will let you know how it goes.
 
Penno

Offline wattsup

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    • Spin Conveyance Theory - For a New Perspective...
@JN

The secondary of a MOT is way to high impedance and you will not be able to impress enough the core to go secondary to secondary. I have tried it in the past many times without any results. That secondary is the high voltage side of the MOT and those HV sides are not good to use as a primary.

But one thing you can do with two MOTS with their head cores removed is use two three way relays and they will pulse back and forth via the magnetic field produced in the core open center. That was fun to do and a good start to looping techniques with a few right sized caps.

I just got my local EE to make me a variable pulse circuit so I will be doing some more experiments tonight and this rainy weekend.

As for buying cores, I am taking my time and investigating all alternatives to move forward.

wattsup


Offline T-1000

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  • Posts: 1707
Jack, I think I will help you with miissing parts in circuit :)

Here is my drawn full circuit with your part inside:

Offline penno64

  • Sr. Member
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  • Posts: 459
Hi Wattsup,
 
Thanks for the inside running on trying to use mots for Jack's setup.
 
It would be wonderful if you could spare some time to draw us a circuit of the setup
you have described. I would like to have a play with that and seeing that I have four mots
with the top core removed, it sounds like I am half way there.
 
Once again, Thanks.
 
p.s. What is your current recommendation for cores to use in Jack's setup?

 

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