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Author Topic: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor  (Read 26374 times)

Offline Jimboot

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Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« on: August 04, 2012, 03:34:38 PM »
Thanks to woopy for the circuit from the Orbo experiments. I have replicated the thanes heins effect with my Rodin pulse motor. Now to run it off caps :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASbXw3RkAHA


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Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« on: August 04, 2012, 03:34:38 PM »

Offline crazycut06

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2012, 04:30:48 PM »
Nice! Can't wait to see it running on caps!
Keep it up!  ;)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2012, 09:08:08 AM »
Farmhand is very interested in this issue.

It's simply jumping the gun to see the rotor speed up when you change the configuration of the motor and call it the "Thane Heins" effect.  Some others have commented in the past stating that this speed up under load is a very common occurrence with electric motors.

Careful and thoughtful input and output measurements would have to be made above and beyond the empirical observation that the rotor speeds up and the power consumption goes down under certain loading condition changes.  For example, one distinct possibility is that even though the power consumption goes down, more of the available power goes into making the rotor spin and less of the available power becomes waste heat - so the rotor speeds up even through the total input power consumption has decreased.

You have to remember that when you are powering your motor from your battery, that some of that input power becomes mechanical torque x angular velocity to make the rotor spin - the rotor power, and some of that power simply goes nowhere and becomes waste heat in the wires, and the core material, etc.  So typically when someone powers a pulse motor they have no real idea what the split is between waste heat power and rotor power.

Just look at the energizing pulse for the drive coil.   When the rotor is spinning more slowly, the pulse is longer.  A longer pulse implies that there may be a larger "dead band" where the energized drive coil is not pushing on the rotor.  A shorter pulse associated with a higher RPM rotor may have a much smaller "dead band" and be inherently more efficient.

If you knew how much mechanical power it took to keep the rotor spinning at your measured RPM, then you could compare that to the input power.  Then you would know that the waste heat power is the input power minus the rotor power.   The question is how do you measure the rotor power?

These are the kinds of issues that could be looked at.  There is no "Thane Heins" effect.  There is on the other hand the challenge to really understand what is happening, and then understanding that what is happening is all 100% normal - the motor is simply doing what it is supposed to be doing.

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2012, 09:08:08 AM »
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Offline Jimboot

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2012, 10:55:55 AM »
Farmhand is very interested in this issue.

It's simply jumping the gun to see the rotor speed up when you change the configuration of the motor and call it the "Thane Heins" effect.  Some others have commented in the past stating that this speed up under load is a very common occurrence with electric motors.

Careful and thoughtful input and output measurements would have to be made above and beyond the empirical observation that the rotor speeds up and the power consumption goes down under certain loading condition changes.  For example, one distinct possibility is that even though the power consumption goes down, more of the available power goes into making the rotor spin and less of the available power becomes waste heat - so the rotor speeds up even through the total input power consumption has decreased.

You have to remember that when you are powering your motor from your battery, that some of that input power becomes mechanical torque x angular velocity to make the rotor spin - the rotor power, and some of that power simply goes nowhere and becomes waste heat in the wires, and the core material, etc.  So typically when someone powers a pulse motor they have no real idea what the split is between waste heat power and rotor power.

Just look at the energizing pulse for the drive coil.   When the rotor is spinning more slowly, the pulse is longer.  A longer pulse implies that there may be a larger "dead band" where the energized drive coil is not pushing on the rotor.  A shorter pulse associated with a higher RPM rotor may have a much smaller "dead band" and be inherently more efficient.

If you knew how much mechanical power it took to keep the rotor spinning at your measured RPM, then you could compare that to the input power.  Then you would know that the waste heat power is the input power minus the rotor power.   The question is how do you measure the rotor power?

These are the kinds of issues that could be looked at.  There is no "Thane Heins" effect.  There is on the other hand the challenge to really understand what is happening, and then understanding that what is happening is all 100% normal - the motor is simply doing what it is supposed to be doing.
Thanks mate. I call it that as he is the only one I've seen demonstrate this. For me it is significant because ATM I have a motor in my shed that is running at 25k rpm that is charging its own run batter.very slowly charging but voltage is increasing. Not saying that there aren't a lot of variable to consider but I think it's something worthy of investigation.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2012, 02:23:14 PM »
Jimboot:

Let me just point out a few facts, not trying to give you a hard time:

If you measure the power consumption of your motor and compare that to the recharging power, just from looking at your clip it looks like the recharging power is only a small fraction of the power consumption of the motor.

It's not at all unusual to see the battery terminal voltage increase as the battery powers a load.  This has also been observed many times.

A closely related point is that often you see someone say "My battery only lost 0.12 volts after running my motor for 12 hours so 12 hours of running the motor only "consumed" 0.12 volts."  I think that you may have said something like that in one of your recent clips.

The whole concept of saying that a load "consumed" a fraction of a volt from the battery over time is really stretching it and is not scientific at all.  If you made an accurate measurement of the power consumption and the recharging power, then you would know the net power consumption of your motor.  The net power consumption of your motor times the run time will give you the energy consumption.  Then you can say something like, "I noticed that my battery voltage under load dropped 0.12 volts after it expended 2500 Joules of energy over 12 hours.  Do exactly the same test on another day with a different battery of the same type and size, or with the same battery with a different initial state of charge, and your observed voltage change may be different.  Just the ambient temperature in the room may affect the voltage drop.  By the same token if the ambient room temperature at the start of the test is different at the end of the test that also could affect the observed voltage drop.

I know that everybody does it, but the plain fact is that seeing the battery voltage slowly increase while the battery is powering a load does not mean that the battery is recharging.  You can see the battery expending energy and powering a load and you can often make a very accurate power consumption measurement with your multimeter.  Those facts override any observed increases in battery voltage and are clearly and unambiguously telling you that the battery is discharging.

MileHigh

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2012, 02:23:14 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2012, 09:57:00 PM »


These are the kinds of issues that could be looked at.  There is no "Thane Heins" effect.  There is on the other hand the challenge to really understand what is happening, and then understanding that what is happening is all 100% normal - the motor is simply doing what it is supposed to be doing.

Well, I wouldnt go as far as to say that there is no effect. We have seen this in Romeros motor also.  But I have yet to see it in a text book. ;]

I have only achieved the speedup effect once. The next day it would not do it. Hasnt since. But what I ended up with, while trying to get speed up back, was a resonant lock between the coil and the rotor. Lock meaning, once the rotor magnet pulses on the coil reached the resonance of the coil/cap LC, the rotor rpms become regulated to that freq.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNCF7uQzwzM     
Still working on this one. Yes, still. ;]

So for me, there is no denying that there is a speedup effect and a resonant lock effect.

When it comes to the speed up effect, some things need to be checked first in order to proceed with confidence.

First, remove the generator coil(with core) from the motor. Now do an rpm max check, and input power check.

Then repeat those measurements with the coil in place but with no load, and then again, with the speedup load.

Now, the measurements of the input, without the gen coil in place, and the measurement of the input with the gen coil loaded in place, need to be compared.

The speedup that we see is the loaded coil helping to overcome the drag on the rotor by the core of the open(not loaded) gen coil. So as soon as you introduce the gen coil/core and mount it to the motor base, the drive motor gets loaded down. The coil does not have a load yet, and the motor slows down, and pulls more current from the source.

So, the key to this is to get the speedup result, very close to, or if possible, more eff results than the measurements of the motor having no gen coil at all.

If an 'equal' or better result can be obtained with the coil loaded, then you can add gen coils all the way around, as many as it takes to get an output that is equal or more than the input.

The effects are there. Dont quit after a few no go results. Everything needs tuning. Everything.

MaGs

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2012, 11:31:05 PM »
Mags:

All of your suggestions are good.  What I would add would be to see how the motor runs for different loads, zero ohms, 0.2 ohms, 2, ohms, 5 ohms, 20 ohms, 100 ohms, etc.  See if there is a trend line there.

If I recall, there is a speed up when you short the gen coils, I can't remember if it happens for other loads.  Suppose your coil resistance is 4 ohms.  So at a 4-ohm load you have an impedance match with the resistance of the coil.  That will give you your maximum power transfer into the load but it will only be 50% efficient because the same power will be dissipated inside the coil itself.  If your motor has very good coupling to your generator coils, and you have an impedance match, you will probably hear thunking sounds and the RPM will be low.

So you can plot power consumption and RPMs vs. varying load resistors.  At the same time you could have a true-RMS mutimeter measuring the power being transferred into the load resistor.

You can also vary the load and assuming the top RPM changes, you could then tweak the supply voltage to return to a 'reference' RPM.  So you could plot input power required to maintain a stable RPM for differing loads.  That is probably the most critical measurement for zeroing in on the most efficient configuration for your motor assuming that your define efficiency as (load power)/(input power).

I as suspecting that it's mostly for shorted generator coils that the RPM increases.  That one has been discussed before.  I believe that you nearly eliminate the cogging when you do that.  That's another easy test, you just do a spin-down test with the generator coil shorted vs. open-circuit; one time possibly with minimal cogging, the other with normal cogging.

Adding more generator coils because you perceive an advantage with a certain configuration is not going to work.  Simple reason - you have a finite amount of "rotor pushing power" from the drive coil.  Adding more generator coils simply spreads out that available rotor pushing power.

This is just basic common sense and I know that the only way to resolve this would be a test.  There is a simple test that you can conjure up.   Run the motor with one generator coil driving a load (assuming that we are interested in a useful output.)  Measure the power going into the load resistor with your true-RMS multimeter.  Repeat the same test but with two generator coils and then with three generator coils, all the time taking note of the power going into the load resistors.  After enough experimenting and changing of load resistor values for different configurations, etc, you should come to the conclusion that you have hit a wall and there is no advantage to adding extra coils.

MileHigh

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2012, 11:31:05 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 12:10:45 AM »
Mags:

I watched your clip.  If you could do a similar test and scope the generator coil output it would be interesting.  When you hook up a capacitor to the generator coil, the LC tank circuit is getting pinged by the passing rotor magnets.  Certain RPMs may result in the pinging being properly timed to keep the LC resonator ringing.  The bigger the capacitor the higher the possible energy in the ring-down.

So it looks to me that every time a rotor magnet passes the gen coil, there is a 'gulp' of energy that gets pumped into the capacitor.  That causes a Lenz drag hit too of course.

So it may not necessarily be a pure resonant effect, but more of a balancing act.  The more robust the ringing in the coil, the heavier the drag on the rotor and the lower the RPM.  At the same time, like I said above, there may be some effects related to the synchronous pinging of the LC resonator by the passing rotor magnets.  It's possible that the RPM can bump up to a higher speed when the pinging is asychronous and it tends to 'muffle' the ringing.

Thinking about this come more, it's possible that the rotor will spin at multiple stable speeds.  There could be some kind of "beating" effect between the synchronous/asychronous pinging and the LC resonant frequency and available rotor power and stuff like that.  The term for this is "metastability" - the rotor can lock into different stable RPMs.

I suspect that the resonant frequencies are actually quite high, but the decay in the ringing is not that short.

Just guessing.

MileHigh

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 01:46:48 AM »
Mags:

I watched your clip.  If you could do a similar test and scope the generator coil output it would be interesting.  When you hook up a capacitor to the generator coil, the LC tank circuit is getting pinged by the passing rotor magnets.  Certain RPMs may result in the pinging being properly timed to keep the LC resonator ringing.  The bigger the capacitor the higher the possible energy in the ring-down.

So it looks to me that every time a rotor magnet passes the gen coil, there is a 'gulp' of energy that gets pumped into the capacitor.  That causes a Lenz drag hit too of course.

So it may not necessarily be a pure resonant effect, but more of a balancing act.  The more robust the ringing in the coil, the heavier the drag on the rotor and the lower the RPM.  At the same time, like I said above, there may be some effects related to the synchronous pinging of the LC resonator by the passing rotor magnets.  It's possible that the RPM can bump up to a higher speed when the pinging is asychronous and it tends to 'muffle' the ringing.

Thinking about this come more, it's possible that the rotor will spin at multiple stable speeds.  There could be some kind of "beating" effect between the synchronous/asychronous pinging and the LC resonant frequency and available rotor power and stuff like that.  The term for this is "metastability" - the rotor can lock into different stable RPMs.

I suspect that the resonant frequencies are actually quite high, but the decay in the ringing is not that short.

Just guessing.

MileHigh


M

Yeah, its like a balancing act. Like the phase of the pulses from the rotor and the freq that the LC wants to ride at, level out. If we speed the rotor up, the LC wants to stay at resonant freq, and the phase difference causes more Lenz or drag on the rotor, not letting it get away yet.

It does look like more power is being developed with the larger 1uf cap compared to the .5uf .

Using a larger cap, will of course allow more current flow, during a 1/4 cycle time period.
But now the voltage peaks are lower. So again, its a balancing act.

Just like when I show that shorting across the cap, the lockup releases, it is the same for applying a load.

So the difference in whether we use a small or large cap will depend on many factors. In my case, I get more voltage and more current(in the lc itself) at lower freq with a large cap, but my input is up at low rpm. But with the small cap, higher freq, high voltage, lower amperage, the higher rpms lower our input.

Maybe Romeros coils were not ringing at freq like mine. My gen coil has way more in copper and turns, and no visible caps on his coils(bifi?)  So maybe his are at 1/4 wave, below actual LC of his coils.

Its hard to discern without having a speedup device in front of me to try things and compare.

Mags

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 01:46:48 AM »
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Offline Jimboot

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 02:36:13 AM »
Isn't this effect what we all got excited about with the Orbo? Making the cores disappear? MuMetal, high permeability etc?
Anyway to answer some questions. Firstly there is no cap in my drive circuit. I am using one from Woopy http://www.overunity.com/8411/steorn-demo-live-stream-in-dublin-december-15th-10-am/dlattach/attach/76902/image/ Although my mosfet is an IRF1405 and the resistor values are different.
The measurements I've done so far show that the motor runs at about the same RPM & current draw with the gen coil hooked up or not present at all. I get about 230V off the gen coil (amps not measured) . When I hook the output of the gen coil to the drive battery voltage initially jumps then will remain steady and slight increases (about .01v hour) upwards. So not significant except it has a motor running at 28K rpm attached.


The effect will not take place until I get the rotor over about 10k rpm. Need to measure this. Another weird thing I have observed. My drive coil is a Rodin coil but I am only using a single winding of it to drive. Once I have the gen coil connected and generating voltage I can then hook up the second winding to the same FWBR as the gen coil and see and further increase in speed and subsequent current draw drop. If I tried to do this without the gen coil the motor would slow down as expected with the second winding (bemf, cemf) kicking in. Remember the rodin is an air coil so there is no core to mask so why does this effect happen? Beats me.


@Milehigh what you say to me makes sense but doesn't fit with what I  am seeing. I try to keep things simple as I have only been playing with electronics for a few years. Longer pulse duration = higher current draw makes sense


Tuning is a little finicky as Mags observed but I've had no issues replicating the effect with multiple configs. I still need to get the output higher. At the moment it will light two 12v lamps in series to about half brightness. My core for the gen coil is an old cold chisel handle - so I guess that is hardened steel. Would ferrite produce higher current?


My gen goil is 80ohm .05mm wire. Weighs about 2kg.


I'll do a vid in a few hours explaining the above

Offline Jimboot

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 02:42:22 AM »
Jimboot:

Let me just point out a few facts, not trying to give you a hard time:

If you measure the power consumption of your motor and compare that to the recharging power, just from looking at your clip it looks like the recharging power is only a small fraction of the power consumption of the motor.

It's not at all unusual to see the battery terminal voltage increase as the battery powers a load.  This has also been observed many times.

A closely related point is that often you see someone say "My battery only lost 0.12 volts after running my motor for 12 hours so 12 hours of running the motor only "consumed" 0.12 volts."  I think that you may have said something like that in one of your recent clips.

The whole concept of saying that a load "consumed" a fraction of a volt from the battery over time is really stretching it and is not scientific at all.  If you made an accurate measurement of the power consumption and the recharging power, then you would know the net power consumption of your motor.  The net power consumption of your motor times the run time will give you the energy consumption.  Then you can say something like, "I noticed that my battery voltage under load dropped 0.12 volts after it expended 2500 Joules of energy over 12 hours.  Do exactly the same test on another day with a different battery of the same type and size, or with the same battery with a different initial state of charge, and your observed voltage change may be different.  Just the ambient temperature in the room may affect the voltage drop.  By the same token if the ambient room temperature at the start of the test is different at the end of the test that also could affect the observed voltage drop.

I know that everybody does it, but the plain fact is that seeing the battery voltage slowly increase while the battery is powering a load does not mean that the battery is recharging.  You can see the battery expending energy and powering a load and you can often make a very accurate power consumption measurement with your multimeter.  Those facts override any observed increases in battery voltage and are clearly and unambiguously telling you that the battery is discharging.

MileHigh
Nup never said it. Made that mistake years ago :) My goal is to get the battery to charge up significantly then run it on caps. So what I am on now is better cores, maybe bigger mags and coils and possibly smaller gauge wire. The only claims I am making are based on what I am observing. Some ways to go yet but for me, this is way better than anything Orbo promised

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 02:42:22 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 03:41:07 AM »


My gen goil is 80ohm .05mm wire. Weighs about 2kg.




 Hey Jim
 
 Yea, my coil is about 51ohm and about 1000ft of 26awg.
 
 So my magnets, rpm, insulated iron wire core, need a reality check to get the speedup. I had them at one point. Ive just been working on this lockup setup, while I have it working.
 
 But it would be interesting to see the rpm/input differences, if any, between no coil present and a shorted coil.  Also what MH said, trying 1/4 ohm loads, 1/2, 1ohm, and a chart of the power dissipated.
 
 I tell ya Jim, that motor, with the offset from the bearing is impressive. Now, if you had another drive coil on top, you might get the same or better running results, with the coils in series. This will save on the input.  ;]  Still use the bias mag, just add the coil. I see how the coil pushes on one side of the mag and pulls on the other, so there is not soo much tension on the shaft, and more just in rotation.
 
 Also, have you tried the 2 bifi coils in parallel to drive the motor?  Put your helmet on. ;]
 
 
 
 Mags
 

Offline twinbeard

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2012, 04:23:07 AM »
Thanks mate. I call it that as he is the only one I've seen demonstrate this. For me it is significant because ATM I have a motor in my shed that is running at 25k rpm that is charging its own run batter.very slowly charging but voltage is increasing. Not saying that there aren't a lot of variable to consider but I think it's something worthy of investigation.

Thane's effect is caused by a phase modulation of the CMMF through making a high impedance coil behave like a capacitor at high frequency.  This parasitic capacitance is generally engineered out of circuits, but in this case, the circuit depends on it.  As the coil tries to overcome its internal resistance to allow current to flow, the "induced" energy is stored electrostatically on the surface of the wire for a brief instant... long enough for the rotor pole that induced it to pass out of the way.  When this decays into current flowing out of the coil, the CMMF that is created sucks the next rotor pole in, as opposed to cogging the inducing pole.  Pump up the volume by increasing the drive voltage... this will increase frequency of operation, and should make the effect more pronounced.

ENJOY!
Twinbeard

Offline synchro1

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2012, 04:31:08 AM »
Jimboot,
"Thanks mate. I call it that as he is the only one I've seen demonstrate this. For me it is significant because ATM I have a motor in my shed that is running at 25k rpm that is charging its own run batter.very slowly charging but voltage is increasing. Not saying that there aren't a lot of variable to consider but I think it's something worthy of investigation."
 
I achieved that r.p.m with my Spiral Torque coil and precision ceramic bearings.  My loop back to source charge was ticking micro volts up by the second. My Lenz delay effect was increased noticably by the use of  1' x 1/2" diametric neo tube magnets coupled end to end as output coil core. The bifilar coil on a radio shack magnet wire spool. The output coil a.c. pole shift is inhibited by the blocking action of the powerfull neo magnet field. The coil then acts as a Leon Dragone magnet generator, as well as a Lenz delay output coil. This can be accomplished with a  very low impedance bifilar coil a fraction of the size of your your Moby two kilo high impedance version.

Offline Jimboot

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Re: Thane heins Rodin pulse motor
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2012, 04:47:57 AM »

 Hey Jim
 
 Yea, my coil is about 51ohm and about 1000ft of 26awg.
 
 So my magnets, rpm, insulated iron wire core, need a reality check to get the speedup. I had them at one point. Ive just been working on this lockup setup, while I have it working.
 
 But it would be interesting to see the rpm/input differences, if any, between no coil present and a shorted coil.  Also what MH said, trying 1/4 ohm loads, 1/2, 1ohm, and a chart of the power dissipated.
 
 I tell ya Jim, that motor, with the offset from the bearing is impressive. Now, if you had another drive coil on top, you might get the same or better running results, with the coils in series. This will save on the input.  ;]  Still use the bias mag, just add the coil. I see how the coil pushes on one side of the mag and pulls on the other, so there is not soo much tension on the shaft, and more just in rotation.
 
 Also, have you tried the 2 bifi coils in parallel to drive the motor?  Put your helmet on. ;]
 
 
 
 Mags
Thanks Mags,
Actually I'm trying to work out how to short the gen coil. I learned from you years ago how to do it on the Ossie with a reed but unfortunately they melt at these voltages. Think I may need another hall circuit to short it out. There's probably a couple of ways I can get the speed up but I don't think I should :) Ive had it run as fast as 34k rpm. With no plexiglass and  hotglue holding it together I think I'll stay sub 30K lol. There is the opposite end of the axle where I am testing another mag and another gen coil as well but I really want to dry shorting the gen to see what happens.


 

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