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Author Topic: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......  (Read 113686 times)

Offline mikestocks2006

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2012, 01:17:57 AM »
Some more info is posted,

Quote
[/font][/size]
About Testing Measurements
    Hello to All,

To those that have not read about me...please realize that I KNOW what I am talking about...I am not claiming "something" out of thin air...meaning, NOT without the correct knowledge or without the proper measurements.

This Set Up I am working on IS NOT A PERFECT ONE READY TO GO OUT AND BUY IT, I have repeated that fact before...This Set Up probably will need more voltage/amperage at Input (another battery) OR Other set of Higher Capacity Batteries... BUT THEN, the System MUST BE REGULATED, regulating the Feed from Source to Prime Mover, as to provide a constant speed/torque at the requirements from Generator Output/Loads behaviour, this regulation NEEDS TO BE A FAST RESPONSE ONE, otherwise it will NOT WORK AS DESIRED.

I have ALSO wrote here previously, that this Motors NEED TO BE PULSED TO PERFORM BETTER, as also their OUTPUT MUST BE "EXHAUSTING" TO A LOAD, in order NOT TO CREATE A HIGHER AMPERAGE POPULATION running within Machine Coils.

As ALSO have to Consider that this Machine (Prime Mover) will GIVE BACK to Us the residual non used Energy through their Output terminals (NOT CONNECTED, NOT MEASURED HERE)...and that MUST BE Counted as ADDING to Output OR... DEDUCTED from INPUT...In either way, it is a "PLUS ULTRA" Attribute towards GAIN and NOT LOSS.

I have run another video with tests, please bare with me here , I really do not want to create a heavy discussion on a War of Measurements ...it WILL NOT take Us anywhere....I am trying (beyond my possibilities) to deliver proper tests...I had to get a High Amperage Meter yesterday that could read DC Amps (Not Available everywhere folks), as another one I had of 200 Amps AC...I recorded a video of both measurements Input and Output, HOWEVER, I AM NOT DOING THE RIGHT WAY OF LOADING GENERATOR, I only have two hands, one for the Camera and the other to do the plugging, the switching etc,etc...NOW, Generators are NOT supposed to be loaded AT ONCE a FULL 2000 Watts, that IS NOT RECOMMENDED EVEN IN THE GENERATOR MANUALS...but I am doing it since I do not have the time to make individual switches for each 500 W Lamps/Allowing time for both machines to stabilize...By doing this I am dumping at ONCE a big Load on Generator and ON A PRIME MOVER, WITHOUT REGULATION...and OF COURSE it is going to suddenly and drastically drop down in RPM's...This is FORCING BOTH MACHINES AT EXTREME STRESS ...The Prime Mover is going to SUCK AS MUCH AS IT COULD TO KEEP RUNNING....while the GENERATOR WILL BE OUTPUTTING CLOSE TO MAX TO SATISFY LOADS AT NOT THE RIGHT RPM's...SO, this is NOT A RIGHT AND NOT STRESSED TESTING, BUT ON THE CONTRARY...a VERY stressful one for BOTH Machines...

Initial Battery Voltage 38.1V

INPUT= 1st Reading UNDER LOAD
Voltage: 33.08
Amperage:75.8
Input Watts:2507 Watts?...Is this Correct? OR Should it be the Difference between Starting V and Voltage Drop, which is 5.02 Volts...You tell me which one would be correct.

Input 2nd Reading UNDER LOAD
V:31.2
A:71
W:2215 Watts...

Output

Four Lamps at 120V
Amperage: 41 A

Output Watts: (120X41)=4920 Watts

Now, here, I have not installed a Volt Meter at Output...My Bad...I should have, so we get an exact out voltage,therefore we are "assuming" it is a steady 120V...We should NOT DO THAT and I am conscious about this error, but I would do it eventually...just have to set the proper Mains Out Connectors from Both Generator Outputs in a SAFE manner, (remember, this is High Amperage AC here...and should be handled with extreme caution and safety measures (Meters would be TWO for each output, between the Two Live and sharing the One Common Neutral)

This Generators have two white wires (neutral) and two live wires (red and black), and the Loads MUST BE attached EVENLY , BALANCING each Generating Fields Output.
To Obtain the 240 V the two white are common (joint together) and red-black live would be your two 240 live terminals. That is the reason why I took the Amperage read out from common joint white output from generator, since it is common for both output terminals.


You do/make your own math/calculations here...then You tell Me whether we have Overunity or not...


MECCALTE IMPERIAL RUN 2 - YouTube


Regards to All


I WILL KEEP MAKING BETTER TESTING...SO STAY TUNED...


Ufopolitics
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11885-my-asymmetric-electrodynamic-machines-99.html
[/font][/size]
 
 
However; the generator is running at around 2450 rpm with the load on. (from the video 6:41)
 
Let’s say it’s a typical generator 3600 rpm for 110 V output no load and typical linear V vs rpm curve, then at 2400 rpm the no load Voltage should be around (2450/3600)*110 or about 75 volts. (at about 41 Hz)
 
Will there be voltage squatting under load of about 41 amps? Voltage measurements at that amperage would be helpful.
 
So what is the correct power out?
 
Thanks for the info, nice work there.
Mike

Offline picowatt

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2012, 03:39:06 AM »
Some more info is posted,

[/font][/size]
 
 
However; the generator is running at around 2450 rpm with the load on. (from the video 6:41)
 
Let’s say it’s a typical generator 3600 rpm for 110 V output no load and typical linear V vs rpm curve, then at 2400 rpm the no load Voltage should be around (2450/3600)*110 or about 75 volts. (at about 41 Hz)
 
Will there be voltage squatting under load of about 41 amps? Voltage measurements at that amperage would be helpful.
 
So what is the correct power out?
 
Thanks for the info, nice work there.
Mike



The 41 amp AC reading doesn't make much sense.  Not sure why there is such a high reading, as the load is only 2000 watts of incandescent lamps.  It would have been nice if he would have checked each 120VAC leg independently or used the other clamp meter to confirm the AC current.  Both clamp meters can also measure voltage, and an AC voltage reading would have been nice.  As well, the DC reading may be inaccurate as the commutation will produce a lot of high frequency pulsing/noise.

The voltage regulator in the gen head will maintain the proper voltage within a certain range of RPM's.  As the gen lugs down the RPM of the prime mover, the output frequency will vary directly with the gen RPM but the voltage will hold fairly steady until the RPM is so low that the gen windings or exciter can't produce enough current to drive the load and at that point the voltage will drop with further drop in RPM, but not necessarily linearly. 

My backup power gen set has an idle feature that still produces 240/120 at idle, but at around 13Hz.  Normally a sense circuit detects a load and spins it up when a load is applied, but to conserve fuel (and noise), I have drawn a few hundred watts off of it while idling (and tricking the sense circuit).  It can hold its voltage pretty well at idle up to a few hundred watts but collapses at greater loads.

Just about every configuration of motor-generator has been commercially built in the past.  AC to DC, DC to AC, single phase AC to multi-phase AC and vice versa.  They were a lot more common in the "olden days".

Give him more time, he seems intent on getting better measurements.

At the moment though, I'd still hold off on the party...       

Offline e2matrix

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2012, 03:50:46 AM »
I have a question or two. If it says 500 watts on the bulb, that means when it's lit, it is drawing 500 Watts, right?
And I'm wondering about the clampon meter. He's measuring what, with it? At one point he shuts the pegged over 40 Amps meter off and says the batteries can't be generating that much. Huh? Those batteries will easily "generate" 400 amps, probably more like 700, if you let them. Try dropping a wrench across that stack and see what happens.
But clampon meters measure AC, anyway, don't they?  Is he trying to use it to measure the battery input power to the motor?
At around 6:00 he says "33 amps, each battery but I had them connected in series" Does he mean "33 amphours capacity"? Because each battery can certainly deliver more than 33 amps, those are Lead Acid Batteries, Deep Cycle kind, aren't they?
Then after he shuts it off he shows that the battery voltage climbs a little. Wow..... who knew that would happen?
Then he uses his fancy laser thermometer to measure the temperature of the .... light bulbs?? I could probably have told him that they were hot. After all.... they were glowing _white hot_ just a few moments before.

I don't have any clue as to where any excess energy or overunity was demonstrated in that video. But the people at Energetic are going on and on with praise and adulation, it almost makes my teeth hurt it is soooooo sweeeeeeet. It's another story of mismeasurement, misinterpretation, and a lot of misdirected enthusiasm. 

I like his crimper, though.

(The next time anyone criticizes any of My videos for shaky camera work, blurs and poor lighting.... I will have them watch this fourteen minutes of motion sickness, and then ask them if their opinion has changed.)

Camera closeups can throw perspective off but he did say those were glass mat small scooter batteries.   So no they can't generate 400 to 700 amps even in a dead short.   But UFO is a very smart guy with lots of engineering background and I don't believe for a minute he would say he had something if he didn't.  He's not asking anyone for money or fame.   He was just trying to get something out on the promised date and will have more solid evidence soon.   Give him some credit as he is spending a huge amount of time, money and work to build all he does and keep everyone at EF up to speed on what he is doing with a lot of education going on regarding the principles behind his ideas.  It's all out there free for everyone - totally open source. 

Offline icanbeatbob

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2012, 06:13:33 AM »
Looking at the battery in his last video, here is the specs on the battery.

B

Offline icanbeatbob

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2012, 06:22:23 AM »
By the way, I am not pro or con on this, just showing what the battery specs are. I have a boat with deep cycle BIG batteries and can honestly say that they won't even come close to start my car, but they last a long long time on the water when I use my trolling motor.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2012, 08:20:00 AM »
Looking at the battery in his last video, here is the specs on the battery.

B

Of course the critical spec for our present discussion, the CCA or MCA (cold cranking amps or marine cranking amps) is missing from Every Listing I could find for the Werker battery.

I did however find this:
Quote
You can use a Deep Cycle battery as a starting battery provided that you take into account the lower
CCA of a Deep Cycle battery. As a rule of thumb it’s a good idea to upsize the battery by about 20% to
deliver the same amount of cranking amps from a deep cycle battery.
Also the self discharge rate of
Sealed batteries is a lot less than flooded lead acid types.
http://www.batteriesinaflash.com/specs/floodedleadacid/TrojanSpecs/Deep%20Cycle%20Battery%20FAQ.pdf

So if a 35 A-H starting LA battery can deliver 600 or 700 CCA, not unrealistic.... a 35 A-H deep cycle battery will be expected to deliver 20 percent less, about. Call it 400 amps to be conservative. See below for a 35 A-H starting battery that delivers 950 CCA.

Now.... if you can find a document that says that the CCA or MCA of the Werker battery is less than 40 amps..... I would like to see it. I still maintain that those batteries are capable of "generating" hundreds of amperes if the "load" is of low resistance. If you can cite any documents that actually contain this vital battery parameter--- available for every battery line I looked at over the past half-hour EXCEPT for the "Werker" line.... I'd like to see them.

Quote
SHURiKEN's SK-BT35 Power Cell puts out 950 cranking amps with a 35 amp hour rating. This battery will resist extreme heat conditions and vibrations and is 100% sealed in a reinforced ABS plastic case. SHURiKEN has designed this power cell to be used with ring terminals or a buss bar. You will love the way SHURiKEN batteries get your system powered up and ready to go!
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_17902_SHURiKEN-SK-BT35.html

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2012, 08:32:40 AM »
Camera closeups can throw perspective off but he did say those were glass mat small scooter batteries.   So no they can't generate 400 to 700 amps even in a dead short.   But UFO is a very smart guy with lots of engineering background and I don't believe for a minute he would say he had something if he didn't.  He's not asking anyone for money or fame.   He was just trying to get something out on the promised date and will have more solid evidence soon.   Give him some credit as he is spending a huge amount of time, money and work to build all he does and keep everyone at EF up to speed on what he is doing with a lot of education going on regarding the principles behind his ideas.  It's all out there free for everyone - totally open source.

I see that a whole lot of people are ordering the motor kits with unwound armatures, for hundreds of dollars a pop, and some people are even concerned that the kit manufacturers won't be able to handle the flood of orders.

Will these people be disappointed when they discover that their systems cannot be self-looped and cannot generate any excess energy over what it takes to run the motor .... if that is the case?

Would it not be better to dampen the wild enthusiasm and get some actual reliable power numbers first, like by using correct instruments correctly ? 

Here's my prediction: UFOPolitics will still be running his house from the grid this Christmas.... and next Christmas too.

Offline scratchrobot

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2012, 01:38:58 PM »
I see that a whole lot of people are ordering the motor kits with unwound armatures, for hundreds of dollars a pop, and some people are even concerned that the kit manufacturers won't be able to handle the flood of orders.

Will these people be disappointed when they discover that their systems cannot be self-looped and cannot generate any excess energy over what it takes to run the motor .... if that is the case?

Would it not be better to dampen the wild enthusiasm and get some actual reliable power numbers first, like by using correct instruments correctly ? 

Here's my prediction: UFOPolitics will still be running his house from the grid this Christmas.... and next Christmas too.

At least Diane is giggling  :)

Offline evolvingape

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2012, 03:39:36 PM »
Seems like Werker is just a brand name used by Batteries Plus and the internals could have been made by any manufacturer. Werker may have been superseded by Rayovac brand name.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_makes_Werker_batteries

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/872416

The closest I could get to a CCA spec was from an ebay listing selling an alternative battery to the Werker WKDC12-33J, which the 35AH version replaced apparently. 315 CCA on the 12V 35AH UB12350 replacement.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12v-35ah-U1-UB12350-UPS-Battery-replaces-33ah-Werker-WKDC12-33J-/200696379094

http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-1813-ub12350-upg-sealed-lead-acid-battery-12volt-35ah.aspx

http://www.topmobility.com/universal-sealed-agm-u1-batteries-ub12350-p2352.htm

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2012, 03:42:17 PM »
Gents,
Before you all get too enthusiastic, always try to understand what you are looking at.
UFO Politics created a beautiful video presentation and great animations, well done, I will definitely contact him for my next presentation,  but for OverUnity, do your homework before you get carried away.   
Some basic electric motor/generator theory would be of help to understand what UFO is showing. We can agree that the video twist and stretches the truth in order to achieve a better position from which UFO can make his case. The "CEMF/BEMF witch" is well known to be a curse but not exactly for the same reasons that UFO provided in his video.
What touched my attention was a slide (10:30) that says “output greater because of the Laws of Nature and Laws of God” followed at (10:40) “My own concept, using Tesla’s secret”,  somewhat puzzled on the physics that underpin the concept. I must say its promotional aspect is well done, UFOpolitics understands the power of a good presentation.  We need to give him credit for that, a splendid sales effort, well executed.  But can we believe him all the way ?  I am not so sure.

What is an electric generator ? 
Effectively the same as an electric motor but you drive it mechanically to be able to tap into the EMF generated by the winding rotating through the magnetic field. 
As current is drawn from the generator,  that current creates a magnetic field that opposes the primary magnetic field (BEMF), this makes it harder to maintain the generator RPM and more mechanical power must be input to maintain the electrical output power demand.

What is an electric motor ?
Effectively the same as an electric generator, but you pump in some electrical power and the motor will start turning and you can tap off rotational mechanical power.  The problem with the motor is that when it rotates it also generates power in the same windings. The EMF generated is the same than the generator but is now called Back EMF because it opposes your input power and limits therewith the voltage and RPM. This back EMF controls the power balance in versus mechanical out. When the motor runs the fasted it consumes the least power because back EMF is the highest. This also means that your greatest torque is at low RPM when the current is the greatest (opposite to your combustion engine), one of the reasons why diesel electric hybrid trains are popular.
When you mechanically load the motor, the reaction is slowing of the RPM, this reduces the opposing back EMF and allows more current to flow to compensate for the higher mechanical demand and so maintain the balance.

What did UFOpolitics do?
As shown in his video, "asymmetry to enlightenment",  there are 2 coils, one input (motor coil) and one output (generator coil),  this is the reason for the 2 commutators. 
Both winding interact with the PM main field and with each other.
The primary functionality is the motor since this is required to makes the coils turn through the PM field.
The motor and generator winding will interact with the PM field. As he motor coils are energized, the field they create leads the PM field by 90dgr, and they interact with the generator coil, like a  transformer. This effect is in addition to the to the field changes created by rotation.
The generator coil Cemf field created by the load current will lag by 90dgr on the PM field. The generator coil Cemf field opposes the motor coil field by being 180dgr out of phase.
The motor action is reduced by 2 influences,
1..  The electrical Cemf  (called the "witch" in the video)
2..  The opposing magnetic field created by the generator current, (because they are wound on the same rotor pole). 
These two influences will reduce the motor drive action, and the generator load will be directly responsible for increasing the motor current by reducing the inductance
 
The generator coil induced emf by the PM main field will be modified by the motor coil field. The motor coil field will influence and distort the overall field as seen by the generator coil, and it is expected that it will reduce the generator lag and bring the generator reaction field more in line with the main field and thereby reduce the magnetic reaction drag force which can be seen as a small gain, a good thing.
Naturally, the  generator loading and the phase shift the load introduces will influence and modify the drag factor.

So what is for and what is against,
The way I see it, some beneficial gain in the generator section but this cost is paid in full by the motor section (+ some more, most likely)
Overunity, possibly when being lenient on some measurement errors. The generator will produces spikes due to commutator motor drive that is fed by DC and inductively coupled to the generator.  Will it do OverUnity in the real world, I do not think so, since there is nothing to suggest this possibility in any way. 
PS:  The motor modification shown in he video can NOT be“TESLA SECRET”, because Tesla was the king in AC Power and AC motors, not in DC motors.  This motor will have no sine-wave shape anywhere circulating around in these coils, neither going in or coming out (some adulterated half sines, yes).  very unlike Tesla. 
In you think we have a prince, believe me the witch still rules

Remember,  a high idle RPM is no guide to mechanical power,  this is the lowest consumption level because of a high CEMF. A motor without Cemf would always increase in speed until it destroys itself in the process.
There has been a patent in the seventies that did exactly what UFOpolitics claims,  but it wasn't very successful.

When measuring electrical power in these setups be very careful with power factor and wave shapes. Accurate measurements using normal instrumentation in this type of configurations is a nightmare

The Witch ?   I let you find out for yourselves who got bewitched !

Do not take advice uninformed,  take advice to inform yourself !  It will aid you in the long run.

Regards
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 08:38:08 PM by Red_Sunset »

Offline scratchrobot

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2012, 04:35:31 PM »
@Red_Sunset, thank you for the good explanation about what's going on, i don't think you are welcome in the official thread  ;)

Offline e2matrix

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2012, 07:38:59 PM »
I see that a whole lot of people are ordering the motor kits with unwound armatures, for hundreds of dollars a pop, and some people are even concerned that the kit manufacturers won't be able to handle the flood of orders.

Will these people be disappointed when they discover that their systems cannot be self-looped and cannot generate any excess energy over what it takes to run the motor .... if that is the case?

Would it not be better to dampen the wild enthusiasm and get some actual reliable power numbers first, like by using correct instruments correctly ? 

Here's my prediction: UFOPolitics will still be running his house from the grid this Christmas.... and next Christmas too.

Dampen enthusiasm too much and I have no doubt UFO would disappear from posting.  I'm personally not running out to buy the 'kits' as I will wait until I see it self looped or some other undeniable proof.  I have not actually followed that thread enough lately to be completely sure of what UFO has but I am confident he is a very educated person in the motor field (IIRC he has a number of patents)  and there is no reason I have to believe he is intentionally misleading people.   So I will stay enthusiastic and support his progress but will wait a little longer before I invest hundreds of dollars.   I know from early on in that thread he was ready to leave and not post anymore because of detractors and naysayers.   So I don't think it can hurt any to stay positive and those who choose to spend money now must realize there is always some risk in any investment of money or time spent. 
   My prediction: UFO will be off grid by next Christmas   :)

Offline ALVARO_CS

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2012, 09:30:18 PM »

What did UFOpolitics do?
As shown in his video, "asymmetry to enlightenment",  there are 2 coils, one input (motor coil) and one output (generator coil),  this is the reason for the 2 commutators. 


hello all
As I´ve been reading & posting in there, I¨ll like to clarify that there is not such two coils in Ufopolitics machine. Every coil in the rotor is separately connected to each commutator. one side of coil at input, and the outside at output. All coils are therefore motors and generators.
That is the reason for two commutators.
I kindly suggest you to revise better all the info showed there as it will avoid misinformation.
Thank
Alvaro

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2012, 10:14:04 PM »
hello all
As I´ve been reading & posting in there, I¨ll like to clarify that there is not such two coils in Ufopolitics machine. Every coil in the rotor is separately connected to each commutator. one side of coil at input, and the outside at output. All coils are therefore motors and generators.
That is the reason for two commutators.
I kindly suggest you to revise better all the info showed there as it will avoid misinformation.
Thank   Alvaro

Hello Alvaro,

I guess that what you are referring to is that the coils are swapped every half turn between the top and bottom brushes and therefore no unique generator or motor coil exist.  You are correct because the two coils are wound in opposing directions. and since the commutator does not take care of the polarity reversal because only one polarity is maintained at one commutator. The opposite winded coil need to take care of that reversal.
 I would gather this was done to give the impression that this would change the opposing magnetic field polarity between motor and generator.  I am sorry to say that it doesn't do that. The magnetic field will always oppose the field that caused the induction no matter in which direction you wind the coil.  If there is an other reason, pls share it.
This detail does not change the explanation of the functionality that has been described in the previous post.

It would have been better to have both ends of one coil on the same commutator, this would have simplified and standardized the setup. As far as I can see, the position of the brushes have nothing to do with the operating symmetry of the system (or linear connection). If there is, pls explain it to me how this is or can impact the working of this motor/generator, and what the impact is when doing it differently. 
I would be interested and all ears !

I hope this helps

Offline ALVARO_CS

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Re: UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2012, 11:04:37 PM »
@Red_Sunset
Please have a look at the different ways of winding

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?uo7zlkakgcd5lye

regards
Alvaro