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Author Topic: Perpetual motion?  (Read 28342 times)

Offline Gwandau

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Perpetual motion?
« on: December 29, 2012, 03:03:40 AM »
Hey everybody,

 
here is some "holiday candy" to ponder if you feel for it.

 
Many years ago an old friend showed me something he told me nobody had seen before. He was earning his livelyhood by rebuilding heavy trucks into breakdown trucks and I had a great confidence in his technical ability and mechanical craftmansship.

 
He is not among us anymore, and I think it is OK to disclose it.  Actually I think he would have loved to disclose it at a forum like this.
 
 
 
This wheel turns as long as there is water in the tank causing the displacement of the weights.

 
According to my friend it turned for several weeks until too much water had evaporated and the displacement of the boats ended.
He also stressed that the water was neccessary, since the boats had to move forward somewhat by their own before getting lifted again by the engaging hook.

 

Would it not be possible to replace the water with a magnetic field creating same effect?
If magnetic repulsion worked, the wheel would theoretically not stop for hundreds of years.

 
Any thoughts on this?

 
Gwandau

 
edit: Maybe I should emphasize that the sketch is no more than a simplified guess made from a somewhat vague memory of the occasion, probably far from correct.
 
.

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Perpetual motion?
« on: December 29, 2012, 03:03:40 AM »

Offline Newton II

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2012, 04:44:37 AM »

Practically it is not possible to achieve that condition.  When boat enters from sideways on the surface of water,  it experiences upthrust (force) from water which holds the boat at that point itself.  Boat cannot overcome this upthrust to move forward and rest vertically on water.


I had tried this experiment in a different way.  I had made similar hook arrangement weights to rest on ground instead of water.  The potential energy gained by the wheel was not enough to overcome the reactive force of the ground.   It didnot  work. 

Offline Gwandau

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2012, 05:38:38 AM »
Practically it is not possible to achieve that condition.  When boat enters from sideways on the surface of water,  it experiences upthrust (force) from water which holds the boat at that point itself.  Boat cannot overcome this upthrust to move forward and rest vertically on water.


The effects of upthrust from water decreases proportionally with weight of boat as long as the differential in displaced water volume is small. You know when you were a kid and probably just like most of us played with boats in the bathtub and you found that some of the heavier ones with right shape and bouyancy could go quite far when pushed. :)
 
As I understand, you have actually not tested the water alternative or even considered the parameters to optimize movement of inertia, and still you declare it is beyond possibility?
 
That's not very scientific of you, my friend.
 
But in any case, I have neither pride nor ego invested in this memory of mine, it's just a nice old memory.
 
Regards,
 
Gwandau

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2012, 05:38:38 AM »
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Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2012, 05:50:32 AM »

The effects of upthrust from water decreases proportionally with weight of boat as long as the differential in displaced water volume is small. You know when you were a kid and probably just like most of us played with boats in the bathtub and you found that some of the heavier ones with right shape and bouyancy could go quite far when pushed. :)
 
As I understand, you have actually not tested the water alternative or even considered the parameters to optimize movement of inertia, and still you declare it is beyond possibility?
 
That's not very scientific of you, my friend.
 
But in any case, I have neither pride nor ego invested in this memory of mine, it's just a nice old memory.
 
Regards,
 
Gwandau

perpetual motion has been around for 200 years and failed, where does it stop? it won't stop because of idiots who don't know when to stop.

Offline eatenbyagrue

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 10:29:41 AM »

The effects of upthrust from water decreases proportionally with weight of boat as long as the differential in displaced water volume is small. You know when you were a kid and probably just like most of us played with boats in the bathtub and you found that some of the heavier ones with right shape and bouyancy could go quite far when pushed. :)
 
As I understand, you have actually not tested the water alternative or even considered the parameters to optimize movement of inertia, and still you declare it is beyond possibility?
 
That's not very scientific of you, my friend.
 
But in any case, I have neither pride nor ego invested in this memory of mine, it's just a nice old memory.
 
Regards,
 
Gwandau


Forget upthrust, friction, everything you are trying to consider.  This is impossible for the same reason all imbalanced wheels are impossible.  The device always seeks a balance, and gets it.  However you arrange the device, there is a midpoint, where all the levers are in balance, and there is nothing you can do to keep the device from reaching this point except to infuse energy.


Just think of a most basic unbalanced wheel.  One weight on the left, two weights on the right.  The two weights will fall and there will be two weights on the bottom, one on top.


Everything else is just a more complicated version of the above.  You can fiddle by adding more weight, suspending some weights in water, adding levers that make weights fall, but there is nothing you can add which will stop the heavier side from settling into equilibrium.

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 10:29:41 AM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 02:55:52 PM »
Gwandau,
I like you ,and if this is how your friend "imagined possibilities"
I would have liked him too !
 
Thanks for sharing the "possibility"!
 
Chet

Offline Gwandau

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 07:41:48 PM »
Guys,
this is actually a more interesting discussion than it may seem at first sight.
 
You all know just as well as me that the only way to reach a higher output than the observed input is through the interaction of misregarded or unknown parameters. Otherwise it remains a balanced system and nothing happens.
 
We all know that, only a quite slow person would not get such basic facts, but as indicated there is more to it than meets the eye.

A lot of unfortunate presumtions are thriving in this forum, making the very forward move into novel areas full of friction.
 
I know you guys are full of well meaning in your attempts to "help" in regard what is possible or not possible.
But you have a tendency to lock yourself in behind preconceptions almost as narrow as orthodox science, preconceptions based upon your own experiments which you seem to regard as fully covering the area of interest.
 

Overunity by definition is impossible of course, we all know that. Getting COP>1 is alway about engaging parameters overlooked by standard thinking. It has nothing to do with energy from nowhere.
Gravity and magnetism are such unknown phenomena, we only know the effects hitherto registered and fascilitated, but we really have no idea what is the source dynamics of these forces.
Therefore it is very unscientific to label gravity and magnetism as conservative systems, like many of you with great emphasis and eagerness tend to inform others here at OU.
 
This is an utterly unscientific act and has one sole effect, making the spirit of those not well enough versed in the contemporary scientific limitations to deflate and lose their zeal.
 

Long live the independent research and long live those who dare oppose the guardians of selfappointed conservationism!
Beyond the thickhead domains await great novel areas of discovery, and this has been historically repeated again and again through our scientific paradigm changes.
 
And remember that nearly all big breakthroughs has been made by people not engaged in the contemporary scientific stasis, and the few discoverers who did belong to the orthodox scientific community all stumbled upon their findings by pure chance.
 
You will get nowhere if you keep your mindset inside the box.
Get out of that box guys, get back to the childhood mindset, like Einstein and Tesla. They were kids at heart, accepting nothing for granted.
 
I'm not advocating the functionality of this wheel described here, I am just using it to highlight a very unfortunate situation that have eveolved here in the OU- forum.
 
The only fruitful critiscism that should be present here is when you have performed and exact replica of the suggested experiment and failed, but remember to be humble even there since you might still have overlooked some small hovewer important parameters.
 
People who seem to focus on stomping out any fire that does not fit into their own paradigm are lacking an essential ingredient in free research.
 
They lack an Open Mind.
 

Regards,

Gwandau
 
PS. @ ramset, you seem to be the only guy who read the reason for my posting, to honor an old friend. He was highly respected by his friends and family as a man of great integrity and honor, and his past as a fighter in the airborne division of south Sweden had given him a reputation of reliability and high esteem. I would find it very odd if he for one single time in his life decided to tell a lie right into my face. For what?)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 07:41:48 PM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2012, 10:29:14 PM »
Gwandau
Today more than ever "things change" [lately the speed of light is even  in question].
Our reality has even begun to be questioned by science .{Quantum ""Viewer"" ].
 
Some Peeps would not sleep well unless they could count on things like
Gravity ..........
 
Let them  have their rest now,Very soon things will stir......
 
  "all things are possible"!
 
But thats just me ,[you Too I think?].
 
Thank you for sharing your friends thoughts,I wish I had enough time to play with that wheel,In my eyes it just needs a little Luv from someone...
 
Chet

Offline Gwandau

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 11:42:06 PM »
Actually no. They are intelligent enough to realise that gravity and magnetism are conservative fields and due to that fact  it precludes ANY mechanism from being devised that would generate energy using only those forces as the prime mover.  Also included is buoyancy which is simply an effect of gravity on masses of different densities.

Gianna,
 
Never stop put anything to question. The moment you stop questioning everything unconditionally, you are dead weight in the novel areas of research.
 
Sure you have your own wild dreams. What are your favourite white spots on the map, where science lack ability to grasp what's going on?
Or do you really believe contemporary science has got it all covered? In that case, what on earth are you doing here at OU ??
 
Sure you must have your own wild route heading in a direction that opposes everything science has told us?
 
In what direction are your Open Mind looking?
 
 
Cheers,

Gwandau

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 11:42:06 PM »
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Offline Gwandau

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 11:51:21 PM »
Gwandau
Today more than ever "things change" [lately the speed of light is even  in question].
Our reality has even begun to be questioned by science .{Quantum ""Viewer"" ].
 
Some Peeps would not sleep well unless they could count on things like
Gravity ..........
 
Let them  have their rest now,Very soon things will stir......
 
  "all things are possible"!
 
But thats just me ,[you Too I think?].
 
Thank you for sharing your friends thoughts,I wish I had enough time to play with that wheel,In my eyes it just needs a little Luv from someone...
 
Chet

Ramset,
 
thank you for your input, especially when considering that we earlier have been quite agressive antagonists in regard to the mystery of life.
 
The Wheel posted here seems actually to carry some effect. It has started things to roll. ;)
 
As far as I am concerned, the very idea of light being something that travels from A to B is the unfortunate result of preconceptions based upon tests that really does not prove anything but a timedifferential between "light source" and receptor.
 
Contemporary science takes so much for granted, primarily based upon the way our senses are reacting upon input. Our non-holistic science of today is good enough for many pragmatic things, where the actual fundamental source dynamics behind physical events like gravity and magnetism are unimportant.
 
You do not need such knowledge to build an electron michroscope or whatever, you just need to know how magnetism relates to other phenomena. Science today have taken a quite bold and unfounded step into the very definitions of fundamental  dynamics and a a result have drawn a lot of wild conclusions primarily based upon the limited human sensory input, instead of keeping to the basic knowledge of how to use these forces pragmatically, which is actually the only thing we really do know.
 
But to take that critical step beyond the known boundaries one has to let go of preconceptions and put one leg out into chaos and start fishing. Those who believe novel areas may be reached by keeping footing on known ground, are going to stay on known ground, the only thing accomplished from known ground is the ability to improve what already is there, like making a better vacum cleaner, and so forth. That has nothing to do with novel research.
 
Regarding the outlook onto physical phenomena through the eyes of quantum theory, I am not sure this angle of approach is a fruitful angle. I am not saying it is not a valid angle, I am merely saying that the angle of approach is an unfavourable angle, making everything entangled in an abysmal turmoil of ever increasing paradoxes and contradictions.
 
I regard quantum theory as being in the same unfortunate situation as when we once thought our world was a static center surrounded by a moving celestial vicinity. The observations made of the celestial paths in the sky around the static flat earth was very correctly noted, but the paths made by the planets were very strange and really did not make any sense at all.
 
Not until we started to look at reality from the viewpoint of a non static round earth moving around the sun, all the paths of the planets became harmonic and easily predictable. The same situation is holding mankind in its grip presently when it comes to quatum theory. We just observe reality from an angle that tells us very little of what actually is going on. As soon as mankind realizes that there is no such thing as light speed or physical matter or objective time, or even a linear universe, we will move into next level of understanding.
 
Regards,
 
Gwandau
 

Offline Gwandau

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 12:28:28 AM »

Forget upthrust, friction, everything you are trying to consider.  This is impossible for the same reason all imbalanced wheels are impossible.  The device always seeks a balance, and gets it.  However you arrange the device, there is a midpoint, where all the levers are in balance, and there is nothing you can do to keep the device from reaching this point except to infuse energy.


Just think of a most basic unbalanced wheel.  One weight on the left, two weights on the right.  The two weights will fall and there will be two weights on the bottom, one on top.


Everything else is just a more complicated version of the above.  You can fiddle by adding more weight, suspending some weights in water, adding levers that make weights fall, but there is nothing you can add which will stop the heavier side from settling into equilibrium.

Eatenbyagrue,
 
That is a very static outlook on things, my friend.
 
Where are your wild side, the daring one, the childish one, unafraid of questioning the most obvious?
We need a lot more radical thinking if we ever will manage to find the sweet spot of our dreams.
 
It is all about creating unbalance, the very portal to COP>1 systems is opened by creating unbalance in a system.
(COP>1 is just a term indicating that we have unknown parameters working for us)

Do not get caught in the prison of preconceptions, any balanced system may be altered into a state of unbalance, given the correct parameters.
 
The moment we hack the code behind the electromagnetic field dynamics we will have the means of altering the visible vectors of the electromagnetic field geometry in favour for same unbalance as in a simple electric motor, which as you know is nothing else but a magnetic motor set to a state of imbalance.
 

Today science stubbornly believes that it actually is the rotational force put into the axis of the generator that is directly proportional to the electricity generated by the generator. That is again one of those preconsceptions made by the limitations of the human sensory input.
 
Where are all the free minds, those daring to defy what we are told since young?

Or are we all a bunch of dessillusioned old farts that finally have coagulated into a grey spot on the front mat?

Will this forum turn into a place mainly filled with naysayers that almost fight each others in their eagerness to stomp out any ideas opposing rigid science.

 
Welcome brave new world.
 
Cheers,

Gwandau

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 12:28:28 AM »
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Offline eatenbyagrue

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2012, 03:39:06 AM »

Eatenbyagrue,
 
That is a very static outlook on things, my friend.
 
Where are your wild side, the daring one, the childish one, unafraid of questioning the most obvious?
We need a lot more radical thinking if we ever will manage to find the sweet spot of our dreams.
 
It is all about creating unbalance, the very portal to COP>1 systems is opened by creating unbalance in a system.
(COP>1 is just a term indicating that we have unknown parameters working for us)

Do not get caught in the prison of preconceptions, any balanced system may be altered into a state of unbalance, given the correct parameters.
 
The moment we hack the code behind the electromagnetic field dynamics we will have the means of altering the visible vectors of the electromagnetic field geometry in favour for same unbalance as in a simple electric motor, which as you know is nothing else but a magnetic motor set to a state of imbalance.
 

Today science stubbornly believes that it actually is the rotational force put into the axis of the generator that is directly proportional to the electricity generated by the generator. That is again one of those preconsceptions made by the limitations of the human sensory input.
 
Where are all the free minds, those daring to defy what we are told since young?

Or are we all a bunch of dessillusioned old farts that finally have coagulated into a grey spot on the front mat?

Will this forum turn into a place mainly filled with naysayers that almost fight each others in their eagerness to stomp out any ideas opposing rigid science.

 
Welcome brave new world.
 
Cheers,

Gwandau


The problem with your logic is that while it sounds inspiring, it is actually a crippling piece of advice.  As a society, we benefit from lessons learned in the past.  We do not need to revisit things that are established.  Imagine having to recheck basic multiplication tables every time we want to create anything complex.  2x2 is 4 already, quit trying to make it 5.


Offline Liberty

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2012, 04:31:16 AM »

Eatenbyagrue,
 
That is a very static outlook on things, my friend.
 
Where are your wild side, the daring one, the childish one, unafraid of questioning the most obvious?
We need a lot more radical thinking if we ever will manage to find the sweet spot of our dreams.
 
It is all about creating unbalance, the very portal to COP>1 systems is opened by creating unbalance in a system.
(COP>1 is just a term indicating that we have unknown parameters working for us)

Do not get caught in the prison of preconceptions, any balanced system may be altered into a state of unbalance, given the correct parameters.
 
The moment we hack the code behind the electromagnetic field dynamics we will have the means of altering the visible vectors of the electromagnetic field geometry in favour for same unbalance as in a simple electric motor, which as you know is nothing else but a magnetic motor set to a state of imbalance.
 

Today science stubbornly believes that it actually is the rotational force put into the axis of the generator that is directly proportional to the electricity generated by the generator. That is again one of those preconsceptions made by the limitations of the human sensory input.
 
Where are all the free minds, those daring to defy what we are told since young?

Or are we all a bunch of dessillusioned old farts that finally have coagulated into a grey spot on the front mat?

Will this forum turn into a place mainly filled with naysayers that almost fight each others in their eagerness to stomp out any ideas opposing rigid science.

 
Welcome brave new world.
 
Cheers,

Gwandau

"Today science stubbornly believes that it actually is the rotational force put into the axis of the generator that is directly proportional to the electricity generated by the generator."

Since science hasn't successfully separated the counter magnetic force during power generation, it ends up being directly proportional, power out to power in, with the difference depending on the efficiency of the device.  However, a generator is not actually a power conversion device in reality; converting power input in to power output.  It has that appearance because of it's design, but it actually is not a power conversion device. 


Offline Gwandau

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2012, 04:28:01 AM »

We do not need to revisit things that are established. Imagine having to recheck basic multiplication tables every time we want to create anything complex.  2x2 is 4 already, quit trying to make it 5.

 
What on earth does 2 x 2 has to do with science lacking any knowledge whatsoever of the source dynamics behind gravity and electromagnetism?
 
You just cannot be that stupid. Of course you must know I am referring to the interpretation of observations made, not the actual values observed.
 
Your unability to grasp the situation is not only utterly boring, it is alarming.
 
Gwandau
 
 

Offline Gwandau

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Re: Perpetual motion?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2012, 05:19:14 AM »
Sure, but doing so costs energy to do so. Exactly the same amount or more than can be recovered back to useful work.
It is proven mathematically to be so (Noether's theorem) and no experimental evidence has ever shown this to be untrue.

You're just wasting your time with such ideas.

Gianna,
 
Noether's theorem naturally will apply for all hitherto undiscovered physical parameters, in which case the new parameters
will conform to this theorem. But newly discovered parameters initially always tend to create a seemingly violation of the physical laws
until mainstream science have managed to revise and become updated, like what is happening right now in the LENR labs.
 
But your comment indicates that you believe there are no more unknown parameters in physics to be discovered, am I right?

 
Physical reality conceals a never ceasing abundance of unexplored and unknown parameters awaiting to be discovered .
 
There just is no end to what lies beyond the human domain of knowledge.
 
My advice for you is to conentrate on the weak spots of the orthodox scientific paradigm, since it's there the most obvious portals into novel areas lie.
 
As I said before, I am not questioning the values attained by observations, I am questioning the unfounded conclusions based upon those observations.
 
I am questioning our basic scientific fundamental conclusions as being anthropocentrically derived from the illusions created by the human sensory input,
which in other words means that the structure of our scientific foundation is based upon mere assumptions derived from our way of perceiving the world through our limited senses.
We are still relating to phenomena as the primitive humans we are. If you shoot an arrow, it goes from A to B. Therefore we draw the conclusion that the phenomenon of light likewise must do so.
 
 
Is light really something that moves from A to B ?  What makes you so sure?  Because it looks like it does?
 
What makes you think gravity is a force?  Is gravity really something that is executing attraction?  What makes you so sure? Because it looks like it does?
 
What makes you think magnetism is executing attraction?  Is that the only alternative to explain the behaviour of magnets? What makes you so sure?
 
 
Personally I think science has painted itself into a corner and need a total revision of the basic outlook on physical matter, gravity, light and so forth.
The hopeless entanglement of contradictions and uncertainty states permeating quantum theory indicates this.
 
Science need a total revision, and it won't come from the established scientific community. They are dead locked into their own limited frames of reference.
The revision will come from novel innovations by radical researchers in small homelabs, people with radical mindsets like Tesla.
 
People able to think outside the box.
 
 
Gwandau
 
 

 

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