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Author Topic: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap  (Read 190877 times)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #180 on: June 12, 2013, 08:49:46 AM »
Circuit Diagram = http://xkcd.com/730/

 :)

That's it, perfectly clear. Should be patented. You made a big error by disclosing it. A wasted opportunity to become rich and famous (and to save the world at the same time).

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline gyulasun

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #181 on: June 12, 2013, 02:42:07 PM »

The double Reed switch dilemma:

....


Hi Conrad,

I understand your dilemma and agree with your conclusion, question is what can we lose from this problem. If we think of wattsup's transformer feedback proposal for instance, considering the interruption of current, does it matter which of the reeds switches off a moment later than the other? While I have not had an opportunity to test this, I think the bottom line is: current be finally interrupted at a moment (and this is what should be adjusted well) which is the BEST moment for operating the motor setup, this is to be adjusted with any one of the reeds out of the two.  The spike from the interruption will appear across the transformer's primary coil too anyway, so it can get transformed to the secondary coil too.  Is there something here I fail to see?


Regarding the Adams motor schematic where there are also two reeds operating, shown by Lanenal and advised to you by me, I just remembered Ossie's magnet motor with air core coils and 2 reed switches, see this link: http://jnaudin.free.fr/ossiemotor/indexen.htm

The schematic practically is the same as that from member Lanenal. Good info is given on how to time the two reed switches, watching the switching spikes on the induced waveform.

(Ossie's coils have 0.5 Ohm DC resistance each, from generator point of view this is desirable if higher capacity battery is to be charged up from the spikes.)

Greetings,  Gyula

Offline wattsup

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #182 on: June 12, 2013, 02:45:48 PM »
@conradelektro

I see you have a scope so maybe use one channel per reed and see their contact on the screen one over the other while you use a battery as feed to make sure the reeds register on the screen.

If the six rotor magnets are not at perfect 60 degrees on the rotor then both reeds have to be located at the same area. At the rotation speeds we are talking about and given the long reed action times, you should be able to find the "sweet spot".

You can always add a 7th magnet on the rotor but at mid-radius facing upwards with an 8th magnet holding the 7th in place from under the rotor. This would permit easy movement of that magnet pair to adjust. Place the reeds one next to the other making sure the reeds are both placed the same way next to each other with their flat side both horizontal then tape them and place over or under the top rotor shaft bridge support. Then  by sliding the magnet into position you can test their simultaneous closing. There should be a location where both reeds will close and overlap.

wattsup





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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #182 on: June 12, 2013, 02:45:48 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #183 on: June 14, 2013, 02:22:56 PM »
I got the relays and managed to get out the coils. They have 1600 Ohm DC resistance.

To get the coil out of the little housing of the relay one has to do some drilling, milling and hacksaw cutting. Not for the faint hearted without tools.

It will take some time till I have built a new 6 coil motor which can be expanded to 12 coils.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #184 on: June 14, 2013, 10:54:15 PM »
Also posted at @lasersabers web site.

@LaserSaber

I really don't want to overburden you by suggesting you should migrate the design to 123D. Best you spend your time on more crucial matters. Forget about eBay when you have @wattsupbay right here ready to buy any one of your present models just to get my hands dirty, uh wet, uh busy, uh you know what I mean.

An easy test.........

Find a very small standard transformer (or one you have made yourself) and put the primary in series on one or the other side of the reed and see what you can get from the secondary. Then feed back the secondary to the holding cap. Maybe rectify the secondary with a germanium diode so the cap does not unload itself into the secondary. This would be a first trial in looping some energy back to the source capacitor without relying on the actual existing system.

If you want to get it working even harder use a second reed on top of the first reed and connect the transformer primary between the reeds so all three are in series (reed-transformer primary-reed) so that the primary gets completely disconnected from both sides when the reeds are open. See the effect.

When you apply any power source to a coiling system, does not matter how it is driven, if only one side of the coil is a breaking point, the other side of the coil is still permanently biased to the source polarity so the change in the coil is never complete. Is is only complete when both coil ends are completely disconnected that the coil re-biases itself to the only field left........to the Earth field, just  like your compass will bounce back to north (or south) when you remove a magnet. This may provide some added energy source but only if the coil is completely off the source from both sides. Sounds simplistic but I have found this to be very true.

The problem arises when such a scheme is tried with mosfets or transistors, the above condition can never be 100% true as it can be with a physical reed break. You can even try a second reed without a transformer and just put that second reed on the other side of your series coils and see the effect.

wattsup

Coils work on current flow.

I don't see any reason for a big difference between a low side switch a high side switch and both, effectively in the moments when current flows through the coil the same effect will happen, which is current will flow through the coil, The only real advantages for different switching methods is dependent on other considerations. The current through the coil should happen exactly the same with a low side switch as a high side switch or both if the discharging of the coils field energy is not considered and only the current flowing from the switching on. What happens after switch off is more dependent on the switching method I think.

Is there any test that shows a coil switched at both ends has a higher magnitude of current or whatever when switched at both ends ? Just because the voltage is present at the switch at the low end of the coil just before turn on means nothing much. It's just voltage.

The problem with a mosfet for a motor can be that the current can flow backwards through them via the body diode, unlike a bipolar. That can be mitigated or stopped, or it could be beneficial. Depends.

Basically if both ends of a simple coil are completely disconnected from the circuit at switch off the inductive energy release is unrecoverable.

Cheers

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #184 on: June 14, 2013, 10:54:15 PM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #185 on: June 16, 2013, 06:40:06 PM »
@Farmhand

No problem man. You can think that but the fact is there is a difference.

When you drive from one side and the reed opens, the recoil goes back onto the connected side. So where does the recoil go when both sides are open? The energy has to go somewhere right? So where?

Maybe the passing rotor magnet will give the answer. hehehe

I will just have to build the wheel myself and show you guys when it is ready. hehehe

Got myself 6 candidate coils to start. 3 bucks each but all they had were six.

wattsup

Added: Made a mistake. The relays were 4 bucks each ($3.99).
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 10:05:50 PM by wattsup »

Offline wattsup

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #186 on: June 16, 2013, 10:16:04 PM »
@ALL

I removed my six coils but I am not able to remove the center shaft from only one of them. So I went to another EE supply place this morning and found 8 more relays to hopefully have 12 coils in all.

Removing the coil was extremely easy but you need a grinder to grind down where the coil is held onto the support bracket. I explain the process in the images below as follows;

- How to remove a coil from a relay -

1) Remove the screws that hold the plastic cover and the back screw that holds the coil in place. Bend the small metal that holds the relay points in place (1A). Remove the spring and remove the relay points. Snip off the wires between the socket base and the bottom of the relay making sure you get the longest wire length possible for the two wires going to the coil. Grind down the excess from where the coil screw was attached (1B).

2) Bend the relay bracket (2A) at the grinding point to release the metal shaft that goes through the coil.

3) Coil shown removed from the relay bracket.

4) Put the coil screw back into the screw thread of the coil shaft.

5) Place the coil with screw facing upwards so that the other side of the coil is supported at a higher point.

6) Hit the screw with a hammer hard enough to push the shaft downwards.

7) Use a longer convenient metal bar (screwdriver bit worked fine) and hit it with a hammer to push the coil shaft out of the coil spool.

 8) Shows coil shaft removed from the spool.

9) Out of 6 relays, one of them (9A) could not be removed because of some excess glue that must have entered between the coil shaft and the coil spool during the manufacturing process. One coil had part of the spool broken but I think it is still OK to use. Four came out very well.

I will do the same for the other relays until I can get 12 coils.

Then I have to make a wheel and start playing. hehehe

wattsup

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #186 on: June 16, 2013, 10:16:04 PM »
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Offline mariuscivic

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #187 on: June 16, 2013, 11:53:03 PM »
Hi guys!
This is my toy for now; still working on it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVkhjjr4Ovc&feature=youtu.be

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #188 on: June 17, 2013, 12:02:16 PM »
@wattsup: nice relays. My experience also shows that one has to come up with a technique to remove the coil from a relay. Sometimes it helps to drill a hole at a strategic place, specially to remove the core. Grinding or filing helps to remove parts which have been glued, soldered or casted. The first attempts are the most difficult and coils are easily damaged, then one usually sees the right way. Each type of relay poses different problems, bigger relays are easier to handle.

Wattsup, could you please measure the DC resistance of your coils (with the Ohm-meter)? I do not know your goal, but if it is low power consumption (like 1 µA on average as with Lasersaber's 3D-prinbted motors) the DC resistance (or inductance, which is more difficult to measure) is the main factor.

@mariuscivic: I could not watch your YouTube movie, may be you are changing it just now?

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #188 on: June 17, 2013, 12:02:16 PM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #189 on: June 17, 2013, 02:27:41 PM »
@conradelektro

Yes I measured my coils and put up an image. Out of 14 relays I managed to remove  11 coils successfully because the others presented problems of inner center shafts being very tight. Any overexertion with the hammer and the coil wire cuts somewhere that is impossible to see.

I will have to find another coil so I will go to a third EE store today.

I wonder if we can buy these coils from the manufacturer before they make relays with them. hehehe

My average coil specs are as follows;

Designed for 24VDC.
0.179 H
0.480 kOhm

Once I measured the inductance, I simply set the scale to capacitance and it gave a reading of 0.52 uF.

I will try to make a wheel like @Lasersabers but of course I do not have the 3D printing capability. I want to work on a design that will allow some flexibility on magnet and coil positioning so I can play around in more then one physical delimitation.

I also want to find three more coils but slightly bigger to mix in with the other coils in various configurations.

I am thinking of a design that will have retractable stems for both the rotor magnets and pick-up coils. That would allow me to bring the 12 coils either tightly together or slightly separated apart. The other main criteria is to be able to change the number of rotor magnets without having to make a new rotor. I still have some ceramic bearings so I will probably use that.

Anyways, I am still a while away from getting it all done and will provide info as it progresses.

wattsup


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #190 on: June 17, 2013, 04:22:19 PM »
@wattsup: thank you for the coil info. Will be interesting to see your experience with these coils

@mariuscivic: I could watch your video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVkhjjr4Ovc. Very nice suspension of the axle. As far as I could see in the video, the axel is hovering above the magnet in the base, only the top pointed end causes a little friction? The rotor in the video has two magnets, and one magnet further to the centre?

I see that your multimeter allows to measure current (DC A). Would be interesting to see the average current draw of your contraption?

I like trigger coils and transistor based drive circuits (because I have a low opinion of Reed switches). But for very low current draw (e.g. a few µA at 1 to 2 Volt) it seems that one has to use a Reed switch. At least I could not find a transistor circuit with such a low power draw.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #190 on: June 17, 2013, 04:22:19 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #191 on: June 17, 2013, 08:01:37 PM »
...

Designed for 24VDC.
0.179 H
0.480 kOhm

Once I measured the inductance, I simply set the scale to capacitance and it gave a reading of 0.52 uF.

...

Hi wattsup,

I recall a similar case I read somewhere on another forum or maybe on this forum that an LC meter showed a certain "capacitor" value in the some hundred nanoFarad range  when its scale or range selector switch was set to Capacitance from the previous Inductance setting when the intention was to measure a coil.

I do not think this reading (0.52 uF) has any real meaning on the coil's capacitance, I do think it is an erroneous reading.

A possible explanation may come from the inside circuitry of the LC meter, please read this quote from topic in "Stray Inductance and Capacitance" chapter from this site ( http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/lc-meter-project.htm#meas ), just under the Measuring Inductance and Capacitance chapter:
"If an inductor is inserted when the Cx switch is depressed the result will be an increase in frequency, F2 greater than F1, rather than a decrease. This is because the inductor has been placed in parallel with L1 and inductors in parallel always are less than the value of the smallest of the two values." 
(F1 and F2 are the frequencies of the inside oscillator as they change as per the unknown coils dictate.) Probably your LC meter operates on a similar measuring method as is described for the LC meter project in the link and your meter also gets fooled.  The self capacitance of such relay coil must be in the range of 10-20 pF or so.
(When the meter is set to C measurement scale, the inner oscillator 'expects' a real unknown capacitor but it gets a 'short circuited' capacitor i.e. a coil instead, so a real LC oscillating circuit cannot develop, this is why the erroneous display reading.)


On your relay coil: it is possible that there have been members of this KA series of relays manufactured with 48V or even 110V DC coils, so their DC resistance may have been in the some kOhm range, if you can find such types also at a bargain price they may serve better for motor operation than the present  480 Ohm coils. I mention this only if you wish to get current draw in the uA range like Lasersaber had.

rgds, Gyula

Offline totoalas

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #192 on: June 18, 2013, 01:13:01 AM »
When an unmodified  relay 24 v dc 14 pin was placed near the rotating N S neo magnet rotor  it produced 15 to 18 v dc  which I connected  back to the source via a diode
Using solar, wall outlet, and battery  @ 250 mA  then the additional relay for a loop back system  362 rpm  can generate additional realys / 18 v supply each   which can be placed in a bus link   .......good for stable supply like a UPS
totoalas ;)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #193 on: June 18, 2013, 12:11:37 PM »
Wattsup wants to switch off a coil with two Reed switches. I am concerned about the simultaneous closing/opening of two Reed switches.

Now I found by chance a YouTube video that shows a clever circuit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auykiV4Kq68 that switches off both ends of a coil at the same time (one Reed switch, PNP and NPN transistor).

One can speculate, that two transistors do not switch the coil completely off. But that is probably not the reason for the lack of OU. Ossi motors with two Reed switches also were not OU.

The video also shows very nice magnet bearings.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline wattsup

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #194 on: June 18, 2013, 02:30:59 PM »
@conradelektro

There should be no problem to switch both side of the coils at the voltages we are talking about.

@LaserSaber (Posted on @LazerHacker site as well.)

Did you ever mention your coil values on the V2 and V3, inductance, resistance.

I just pulled 12 coils from some relays and was searching anywhere you may have posted this so we can compare our coils or better still find a better analog.

Also, I am putting down a more revised design that will permit to change coil numbers or magnet numbers with the least hassle possible. Just a few more ideas to make a build that will enable me to have more flexibility with one design.

wattsup

 

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