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Author Topic: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...  (Read 10078 times)

Offline tim123

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'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« on: August 20, 2013, 08:15:13 PM »
Hi Folks,
  here's another idea... I call it the 'Rose-Tinted Lenz Generator' - or RTL - for a bit of a laugh... Diagrams attached below. It's unusual in it's design, so forgive me if it's not immediately clear. As always it's open-source tech - put out there to see if it stands up to scrutiny...

The point is to have very little Lenz-force / back-emf applied to the rotor. Instead the Lenz-EMF generated by the coils is directed to other generator coils. So the coils are basically 'duelling'...

It's a rotary generator, with fixed stator pieces, and a rotor driven by a separate prime-mover.

The stator units consist of two 'duelling' coils and a permanent magnet in the middle - which is the initial source of flux - all joined into a magnetic circuit by a rectangular laminated steel / ferrite / amorphous core. There could be any even-number of stator units in the generator.

The rotor is simply made of mild steel or cast iron. It's about as thick as the PM in the stator, and has 'teeth' on the outside - half the number of stator units. So if the generator has 4 stator units, then it has 2 teeth on the rotor. So there are always two sets of coils in the generator...

The point of the rotor is to provide an alternative flux path for the permanent magnet. So as it rotates in the path shown in the diagram - the teeth come close the the PM, and it's flux moves out of the stator, and into the rotor. The rotor teeth only come near the PM in the middle of the stator - not the coils, and not too close to the stator cores either.

So unlike most generators - the rotor is actually removing flux from the coils - instead of forcing it in - as it approaches.

Now we get to the interesting bit, what happens as the rotor approaches the stator, and when it leaves...

As the rotor moves towards the stator:
 - the flux moves out of the stator and into the rotor
 - the coils attempt to oppose that reduction in flux - by providing the opposite polarity
 - so in the diagram below the magnet is S-N, the coils will go N-S to try and 'bring the magnet back'
 - so - the 2 coils' fields further strengthens the apparent loss of the S-N magnet - via a positive-feedback mechanism - and they drive each other to saturation

As the rotor moves away from the stator
 - the flux moves back into the stator
 - the coils attempt to oppose that with the same polarity - i.e. S-N
 - thus the +ve feedback works again - driving the coils to saturation

Note that:
 - the amount of flux 'removed' by the rotor isn't crucial - it just has to provide a modulation in the flux.
 - that small change in flux is amplified by the EMF of the coils - because of the *load*
 - positive feedback drives the whole stator to saturation in each half-cycle (but only under load).

The power is actually provided by the load itself.

The rotor *is* subject to cogging, and in fact - there is a mechanism for a reaction against the rotor:
 - As the rotor approaches the stator, the coils cancel out the PM's field - thus no attraction on approach
 - As the rotor leaves the stator, the coils reinforce the PM's field - thus extra attraction on exit.

However, i don't think this is a problem because:
 a) the rotor/stator could be shaped to only come near the PM - and not the stator core. It would still 'soak up' the magnet's field - but wouldn't be near the core's field
 b) it only has to modulate the flux. It's not providing the power. So the rotor can be quite a distance away from the stator.

What do you think? :)

PS: I think you can add bits to the rotor, and make it drive itself... Because the core field is varying as the coils strengthen & weaken the PM's field - that could be used to drive the rotor round. The rotor would have to have extra bits designed to be attracted to the core - and they'd have to be designed so as not to complete any part of the magnetic circuit.

So - it even drives itself. Maybe I can get it to make tea and toast too...

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'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« on: August 20, 2013, 08:15:13 PM »

Offline tinman

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2013, 12:34:41 PM »
Sounds like it works much the same as my L.A.G (lenz assisted generator)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv8SGxWNELo

Offline tim123

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2013, 02:42:47 PM »
Hi Tinman. Your L.A.G. looks totally different to me TBH. I'm not sure I understand it's principle of operation though - the vids all seem to indicate you'd explained it elsewhere...?

RTL has:
 - No moving magnets - plain steel rotor.
 - Bucking coils driven by the load.
 - Rotor is removing flux from stator - not adding it - on approach.
 - Stator magnet isn't providing significant output power - it's just 'priming' the coils.

Of course, there's plenty of room for me to have got part of his wrong. It does look like the load is powering itself. :)

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2013, 02:42:47 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2013, 08:09:54 PM »
Attached are some more diagrams. This is an alternative, and much better, arrangement. On the left is a side view of the stator unit, showing how the rotor bars move past the magnet. On the right is a view from the front.

Here, the rotor 'teeth' are arranged across the rotor. This means they rotate across the width of the magnet - instead of it's length. Much better. They could be made of mild steel bar stuck through an MDF rotor.

I'm not sure if the bucking coils arrangement is going to work as I think it ought to. It seems a bit too good to be true. It's not difficult to test the stator unit's principle though, and I will, probably tomorrow.

Even if the 2 coils don't work as hoped, a single coil with magnet in the same arrangement could still be a useful building block to an OU generator.

I think it could still deliver OU with just a single coil because:
 a) the rotor sees very little of the varying flux in the core - as it's only overlapping the magnet.
 b) If the magnet saturates the core at the point where it joins, where the rotor passes, then the rotor won't see any flux from the coils(?)
 c) the varying flux in the core can be used to drive the machine - with a few extra parts. Will post a pic soon...


Offline gyulasun

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 11:04:39 PM »
Hi Tim,

I was going to ask you to make another drawing, showing your setup from a different view from what you drew in your first post when you posted the new drawings above, thanks.  Now I think I understand your setup just enough to comment.

Basically your principle sounds good to me but I think the problem is the closed magnetic circuit for the stator: the poles of the magnet would be naturally closed into the either rectangular or the triangle stator shapes so trying to influence this closed magnetic circuit by the steel rotor bar to cause a decent flux change in the stator may prove difficult, just because the air gap between the rotor and stator.

I am not saying it is impossible to influence the flux in the closed stator circuit from outside i.e. by the rotor bar, I just refer to the much higher willingness for the permanent magnet to keep most of its flux in the stator cores which just closely touches it versus jumping to the passing bar with the air gap.  Just think of  Flynn's parallel path setup: when you bridge one side with a keeper, then another keeper at the opposite side would not stick (or maybe a very little),  unless you remove or lift up the first keeper a little i.e. you brake the closed magnetic circuit first.

To reduce this problem, you may wish to use air gaps between the permanent magnet and the stator cores instead of the direct touch but even so the full flux available from the permanent magnet could not participate in the useful induction. However, this latter would be but a small drawback of course.

You mention cogging in this setup and it could be solved by using a mirror imaged setup and fasten the rotor shafts together.

In your first post, for the rectangular drawing, you mention the coils as bucking coils. What do you mean on that, beyond the normal Lenz effect in them?

Greetings, Gyula

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 11:04:39 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2013, 02:33:18 PM »
Hi Gyula,
  I have some experimental results. I tested two cases, using the same magnet & (shop-bought) ferrite-core coil. Diagrams attached below.
Results measured on oscilloscope. All values are Peak-to-Peak voltages.

Case #1: Standard generator configuration - with magnet passing over the coil.
I put a lino tile (1mm) over the coil, so the magnet wouldn't stick too hard. Then just moved it back & forth as fast as I could.
Max Volts: 2.6v

Case #2: Magnet and coil stuck between two 5mm mild steel plates. A third plate is used to simulate the rotor.
I put the lino tile over the 'rotor' plate, and moved it towards & away as fast as poss...
Max Volts: 1.6v
With 2 identical coils in series between the plates, Max Volts: 2.8v

So - it's possible to get a reasonable voltage out using this arrangement. It is less than the standard config, but not by too much.

'Bucking' coils...

I got this duelling / bucking coils' business totally wrong like a muppet, lol. The two coils act just like one bigger one, and there's no positive feedback. Maybe there could be if they were in separate circuits, at different phase angles or something, I'm not sure. Maybe there is an arrangement where you can get loads to drive themselves. This isn't it though.

Cogging...

Cogging isn't too hard to overcome, and my understanding is that in theory it doesn't add much friction - as sum attraction is zero. I thought I'd mention it though. I quite like the Muller/Romero idea of simply having one extra rotor piece - but I guess it means you need a separate rectifier on each pair of coils.

I think the key to making this generator OU is to
 a) minimise the flux from the coils that's 'visible' to the rotor.
 b) Make use of the coil's flux to (help) drive the rotor - via a separate mechanism.

Will post more in this in a bit... :)

Offline PiCéd

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2013, 02:53:46 PM »
Hello tim123, uh, the voltage you have is DC or AC ?
Irons you do turn are they easier or just as easy to turn as if there was not the magnet?
Sorry for these questions, I just want to know.

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2013, 02:53:46 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2013, 03:14:13 PM »
Hi Tim,

It is very good you have made some tests, albeit your tests represent slightly different setups versus the ones shown in your earlier drawings attached to your 1st and 3rd posts.  I mean the stator cores in the earlier drawings go through the center of the coils and I also mean you did not have a closed magnetic circuit in your RTL-4b.gif drawing like you drew in RTL-1.gif and RTL-3.gif.
Of course this change in the setup is fine with me and positioning the coil like you did in RTL-4b.gif certainly have less mutual (two-way) flux interaction with the stator cores but what I wrote on the difficulties in causing flux change from outside in a closed magnetic circuit is still valid.

rgds, Gyula

Offline tim123

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 03:15:35 PM »
Hi Gyula,
  it was a close to a complete magnetic circuit as I could get. It did run from magnet - through plates - through coil cores, although not all one piece, and did have gaps. The coil does have a ferrite core - so there is a complete circuit...

OK, here's a diagram explaining why I think this arrangement could be OU. Sorry if it just looks like a badly drawn UFO...

This shows a stator, with coil at the top, and permanent magnet below, embedded in an 'extended' laminated steel core. The core goes through the coil, down to the magnet, and out at the sides too. In this diagram the rotor goes into the page.

The part of the core right next to the magnet experiences the smallest changes in flux - because it's mostly saturated by the PM. This is where the main bit of the rotor passes by the stator. It's labelled 'Saturated Zone'.

So, the main rotor only 'sees' the flux from the PM, not the coils, because the part of the stator that it passes is always saturated by the PM.

The parts of the core at the ends experience the largest change in flux. As the coil alternately strengthens & cancels the PM's field. It's labelled 'Variable Zone'.

So at these outer edges, it should be possible to include an extra 'bit' of rotor - which should be attracted from one stator unit to the next, as the field varies. Note, this 'secondary' rotor, or 'drive' rotor part will act like a small magnet itself, and that will affect the coils a bit, but it doesn't complete any magnetic circuit, so the effect should be small.

So, while the main (central) rotor sees a constant field, the drive (outer) rotors see a pulsing field. If they can be made to be attracted enough, without affecting the coils too much, then it'll drive itself.

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 03:15:35 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2013, 03:27:09 PM »
Hello tim123, uh, the voltage you have is DC or AC ?
Irons you do turn are they easier or just as easy to turn as if there was not the magnet?
Sorry for these questions, I just want to know.

Hi PiCéd,
  Voltage from coils is AC, peak to peak - measured on an oscilloscope (it measures it for me - and give me the stats).

The iron plate is strongly attracted to the magnet & other 2 plates, yes. That in itself isn't a problem though - it's just 'cogging'.

Offline tim123

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2013, 05:43:53 PM »
Ok, a couple more pics:

RTL-6.gif
 - A different shaped stator & rotor. This gives more surface area contact between the two.
 - drive section is moved thru 90 degrees. I think it makes the machine more compact.
 - doesn't look like a UFO, or an uncapped pyramid, much better ;)

RTL-7.gif
 - shows hows the flux will behave during the two coil polarities.
 - Top pic - coil is same polarity as PM - so flux enters core extension (drive section).
   Extended core sections contain full flux from PM and coil.
 - Bottom pic - coil is opposite polarity, so flux moves out of extension.
   Extended core sections are mostly empty of flux.

The drive rotor has to be 180 degrees out of phase with the main rotor. Here are the steps:

Main Rotor Approaching Stator:
 - PM flux (S-N) moves out of stator & into rotor
 - Coil goes N-S
 - flux moves out of drive section
 - drive rotor moves out of drive section (and is attracted into the next stator unit...)

Main Rotor Leaving Stator:
 - PM flux (S-N) moves out of rotor & into stator
 - Coil goes S-N
 - flux moves into drive section
 - drive rotor attracted into drive section

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2013, 05:43:53 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2013, 05:45:19 PM »
Hi Tim,

Sorry, somehow my eyes skipped the words 'ferrite-core'... and I considered the coil as having an air core.   :o

Now I have a question with your RTL-5.gif drawing: you mean the small rotor parts (which are also of steel material, labeled as 'drive rotor')  rotate together with the main rotor, right?  They are fixed to the same and only rotor shaft, correct?

If both yes, then I can accept the role of the drive rotor steel pieces: they help a little to enhance flux change in the coil core part of the stator (when the main rotor also passes by the magnet)  by offering a further alternative path for the magnet's flux to go towards the outer edges of the stator, hence steering flux away from the coil core part stator area. So to say: drive rotor steel pieces help 'empty' magnet flux in the coil core part of the stator.

To possibly enhance this flux-reducing effect in the coil part of the stator, perhaps you could position a small magnet on the back of each drive rotor steel piece, with the correct polarity to make those 'secondary' rotor parts slighly biased magnetically: they would be a N pole facing the variable zone of the stator at the left end and a S pole facing the variable zone of the stator at the right end.
Of course this biasing would increase cogging a little but I think this could be compensated for in an overal setup. Of course, really small and not too strong 'biasing' magnets should be used, to just increase attraction a little bit between the variable zone parts of the stator and the drive rotor parts.
(Notice: in this setup too, air gaps are a must between the facing surface areas of the magnet and the stator core to have the best match for maximum flux change in the coil versus extreme stator core saturation.)

rgds, Gyula

Offline gyulasun

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 05:51:25 PM »
Ok, a couple more pics:
...

Hey Tim,

You seem to be improving indeed...  ;D   Keep it up.

Gyula

Offline tim123

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 06:28:16 PM »
Hi Gyula,
  yes the two rotor section would be attached. In fact, I was just writing the following, (will have to think about ur other points, thanks)... :)

Not sure about this, but it occurred to me that it may be possible to get the drive effect on the main rotor.

First diagram shows the stator configuration. Second shows the polarity of the core either side of the rotor, as it enters and leaves the stator.

On entry:
 - Coil goes N-S
 - flux moves out of drive section
 - rotor sees a single magnet on one side - and is attracted

On exit:
 - Coil goes S-N
 - flux moves into drive section
 - rotor sees the same polarity on both sides - and (because it's central) is repelled.

Well, that's the idea anyway... Any advice gratefully received. :)

...Actually I don't think this'll work - because the rotor provides a full magnetic circuit between the two poles. I think the drive sections have to be separate.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: 'Rose-Tinted Lenz' Generator...
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 11:29:32 PM »
Hi Tim,

I may have interpreted differently than you possibly meant the role of the 'drive rotors' in my above post for your drawing RTL-5.gif because you did not mention any timing for it (like a 180° shift for drawing RTL-6.gif) so I thought both the drive rotors and the main rotor apper near the stator at the same time. This is why I answered like that which I consider still valid i.e. the small sized 'drive rotors' help empty PM flux from the coil core area (especially with some small backing magnets of the correct polarity placed onto the small rotors).  And when the latter rotors leave the stator together with the main rotor, the PM flux will hopefully be able to snap back into the coil core area again.  I am not sure you assigned this kind of task to the drive rotors in RTL-5.gif though?

Will continue comments later tomorrow for the other drawing.

rgds, Gyula

 

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