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Author Topic: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread  (Read 255897 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Here is the discussion and continuation thread from GotoLuc´s Reactive Generator Research thread:

http://www.overunity.com/14013/reactive-generator-research-for-everyone-to-share/


Hi Luc,
I just googled the surcharges for reactive power usage and there are
some power companies, where you pay for it a surcharge and it also
rises, the more reactive power you use:


https://www.psoklahoma.com/info/news/ReactivePowerCharge.aspx

This one shows it in the last table there.
http://www.bchydro.com/news/conservation/2013/bchydro-bill-power-factor.html#power-factor


Power factor less than               Surcharge
100%
    but 90% or more    Nil
90%     but 88% or more     2%
88%     but 85% or more     4%
85%     but 80% or more     9%
80%     but 75% or more     16%
75%     but 70% or more     24%
70%     but 65% or more     34%
65%     but 60% or more     44%
60%     but 55% or more     57%
55%     but 50% or more     72%
50%           80%

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Offline hartiberlin

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Hi Luc,
maybe you can still address this:

Please let us know, did the scope show the real current on the shunt
or was its real value 10 times higher in your last video ?

So what was the exact real absolute value of the current in your last test ?

320 mA or 3.2  Amps  ?

Many thanks.

Offline minnie

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Hi,
   there's obviously a fair bit of power coming from somewhere to heat the transformer
up enough to cook an egg.
  With all of these things there's always the ubiquitous grid supply, battery or signal
generator. I imagine without the grid you'd just have a lump of cold metal.
              John.

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Offline poynt99

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Let's look at Luc's scope shot again.

Notice that the CH2 trace is indicated as current; specifically 132mA/DIV. The problem with this, and unfortunately this invalidates all of Luc's data and conclusions, is that he is NOT using a current probe in the video. He is in fact using a standard voltage probe across a 0.1 Ohm resistor. You can not use a voltage probe and tell the scope that it is a current probe and scale it that way. This is not correct.

So not only will your measured current be completely erroneous, but the phase of the trace may be inverted as well.

The attached is a picture of a typical current probe, and is what Teltronix means when they refer to "current probe" in the manual (see p8 & p105). Current probes clamp around a conductor.

Please redo your measurements using CH2 as a VOLTAGE probe with the appropriate attenuation setting.

Offline poynt99

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Luc said:
Quote
Stefan,

I also agree with you, the upper part of the math is what is used and the lower part is what is returned.
The scope has the ability to set a probe for use as current or voltage. Multiply the current by 10 as CSR is 0.1 Ohm.

Not quite. If you are setting the scope channel for current, you must have a current probe connected to it.

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Offline hartiberlin

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Hi Luc and all,
I checked the mechanical Watt meters over here in Germany and you are right,
they just register only Real active power and not
Apparent power, what I thought before.

So okay, you have these about 20 Watts for free with your circuit,
but the question really is, if the power company will like this.
Probably not, cause your house meter will not regirster it and
they can not charge you, but they have to pay the bigger transformers
to keep up with the reactive and apparent power needing higher
currents.

As they have to generate the current in their generators, the question
still is, if the cycling of your about 800 Watts getting in from the grid
and 800 Watts returning to the grid in a 120 Hz rhtyhm will need them to generate more power than
just idling the reactive power back and forth...Hmm...

You seem to have shown in your first experiment with the motor
driving the generator, that this additional reactive load
does not need any additional input.

The question then is why your motor really needs so many Watts to drive an
idle generator ? Are these just friction losses ?? There shouldn´t be so many losses
and you should have better used an at least 90 % efficient DC motor to drive
your generator to have a much easier measurement for the input power without any
power factor there as it is the case with your AC drive motor...

Anyway, I think this should be better tried at higher frequencies
with smaller ferrite type transformers and a sinewave opscillator that
drives these phase shifting ferrite transformers and then you can also use smaller
caps and the output power is then easier to scale up as you can transfer more energy
per timeframe this way with faster frequencies.

If you drive the sine wave oscillator from a DC battery you can then measure, if it will
draw more power from the battery, if you draw the reactive power from the output side.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 08:56:38 PM by hartiberlin »

Offline hartiberlin

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Luc said:
Not quite. If you are setting the scope channel for current, you must have a current probe connected to it.


Luc just emailed me this:


Sorry but that changes nothing.

I just tried it. If I select Voltage instead of Current the number are exactly the same. The only difference is instead of VA at the end it displays VV

Nice try but you'll have to come up with something a little better than that to explain what's going on.

Don't forget, when the circuit is connected to a generator it has Zero effects to the prime mover. So something is going on so don't get caught up in scope shot power calculation details. I'm not trying to prove this works by just looking at a scope shot.  That's just for show and irrelevant!  what is relevant is the zero effect to the generator and delivering over 20 Watts to the load!... this is what needs to be understood.

Hope you can tell them what you thought was a mistake does not change anything.

Regards

Luc

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Offline poynt99

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There is something not quite correct in those measurements.

Time will tell.

Offline hartiberlin

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So Luc and poynt99,

it is clear now that using a shunt this way works exactly the same as using a current probe.

But Luc did not yet answer  what  the exact real absolute value of the current was in his last test ?

Was it 320 mA or 3.2  Amps  ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

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Offline codeboundfuture

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poynt99,
The current sensing resistor is using ohm's law and an oscilloscope to detect the voltage drop.  This method is probably the most accurate method possible.  Luc's data is indeed valid.

"Multiply the current by 10 as CSR is 0.1 Ohm." - gotoluc
We should then have 3.2A.

Cheers,
matt

Offline hartiberlin

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"Multiply the current by 10 as CSR is 0.1 Ohm." - gotoluc
We should then have 3.2A.


Can you again confirm this Luc ?

I thought your scope had already calculated the 10 times factor in via your scope settings ??


Well, if it is really 3.2 Amps then this means also
as then you are shuttling also back and forth about 800 Watts from and to the Grid !
No wonder the transfomer gets so hot then via its losses !

Then these 20 Watts of Real active output power are only a small fraction of the big
240 Volts x 3.2 amps =768 VA (Watts) of
apparent power being drawn.

So this is only a 2.6 % ratio . Could this still be then some kind of measurement error ?

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Offline poynt99

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poynt99,
The current sensing resistor is using ohm's law and an oscilloscope to detect the voltage drop.  This method is probably the most accurate method possible.  Luc's data is indeed valid.

"Multiply the current by 10 as CSR is 0.1 Ohm." - gotoluc
We should then have 3.2A.

Cheers,
matt
There are some problems:

1) Luc is using a voltage probe. The scope was set to scale according to a current probe (what scaling did he use?). Even if the scaling was set to 100mV/A, is this valid? Would you bet your house that it is? Does the fact that the probe is maybe a x10 probe throw the amplitude out by a magnitude?

2) The resistor being used to measure current, is it non-inductive wound?

3) In a series RLC circuit, does the current lag the voltage, or vice versa? Or is it either? What determines this?

4) How is it that the screen amplitudes of both traces ended up the same? Coincidence?

Offline hartiberlin

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There are at least two problems:

1) Luc is using a voltage probe. The scope was set to scale according to a current probe (what scaling did he use?). Even if the scaling was set to 100mV/A, is this valid? Would you bet your house that it is? Does the fact that the probe is maybe a x10 probe throw the amplitude out by a magnitude?

2) The resistor being used to measure current, is it non-inductive wound?

3) In a series RLC circuit, does the current lag the voltage, or vice versa? Or is it either? What determines this?

No, this should not matter,
only if the shunt is a bit inductive, but then it shifts just the phase a bit more or less,
so we could still have some more Real Active power than the scope shows...

Luc just confirmed that it is really 3.2 Amps:

"Hi Stefan,

the current is 320ma x 10 so 3.2 Amps is running through the circuit."


Okay, but as the shunt is only 0.1 Ohms, its inductance impedance is
probably too low to have an effect on the phase shifting in this setup.
But maybe the scope head capacity calibration was not done ?
Would this be a problem in this case ??

Offline codeboundfuture

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Quote
1) Luc is using a voltage probe. The scope was set to scale according to a current probe (what scaling did he use?). Even if the scaling was set to 100mV/A, is this valid? Would you bet your house that it is? Does the fact that the probe is maybe a x10 probe throw the amplitude out by a magnitude?
Tektronix manual -
"Current probes provide a voltage signal proportional to the current. You need to
set the oscilloscope to match the scale of your current probe. The default scale is
10 A/V."
The voltage probe is detecting the voltage drop induced by the current through the resistor and giving a proportional voltage signal to the oscilloscope.  I'm sure you still want a confirmation from Luc about his settings but he has already stated that it's 10x what is displayed.

Quote
2) The resistor being used to measure current, is it non-inductive wound?
You would be hard pressed to get a phase shift from a .1 ohm resistor at 60hz, the inductance necessary would require a much larger resistor.

Quote
3) In a series RLC circuit, does the current lag the voltage, or vice versa? Or is it either? What determines this?
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/series-resonance.html  The section "Phase Angle of a Series Resonant Circuit"

Quote
4) How is it that the screen amplitudes of both traces ended up the same? Coincidence?
It's a setting on the scope to change it to an arbitrary value, it was made to match on purpose, probably for simplification of viewing.  You can see the setting at the bottom left of the scope screen.

Offline minnie

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Hi
   this thing seems to be doing what is claimed. Could anyone please tell me how it could
be used in a practical way?
                           John

 

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