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Author Topic: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile  (Read 88565 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« on: August 25, 2006, 08:04:42 PM »
Hi Everybody,

I am writing from Osl? and was in the middle of a long posting but the net was cut out for some reason so I'll try to summarize quickly.

These couple of days I met with Finsrud and saw his device working for hours. I also met with two professors of Physics from Oslo University who have observed the device several years ago. Finsrud is a truly amazing guy, a real genius. I have tell you, however, that now I understand better why this experiment has not realized its full scientific potential. I also heard some remarks from the two professors which, although expected, are very aggravating.

I'll continue this in another posting to avoid being cut out again ...

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Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« on: August 25, 2006, 08:04:42 PM »

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2006, 08:14:37 PM »
The first Physics professor, whom I met personally, said that although he saw the device working, there must be some "trick", even though he could not specify it. When I asked him if it were proven with certainty that this device is truly running for hours without any "tricks" would he then accept it. He said no, even then he would not accept it.

The retired professor of Physics was more open-minded and while he also referred to some unspecified "trick" he said that he will accept it if it is shown that this is a genuine effect. He, like the first professor, also referred to the fact that Finsrud is a former magician which he thought might be providing grounds for supposing that he is applying some "trick".

I'll stop here to prevent being cut off ...

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2006, 08:22:24 PM »
I hope that I'll meet in person with the retired professor before I leave for the states. Also, I will meet with Finsrud tomorrow and probably on Sunday and will have a better picture about his reservations about considering his device other than a sculpture. So far I have made several hours of video with conversations with Finsrud and several hours of the running device. I'll try to shoot some more video till the end of my stay. Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2006, 08:22:24 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2006, 08:25:11 PM »
I should mention also that Finsrud's device is furthering the SMOT idea and I'm pretty convinced now that others such as Torbay have based their inspiration on it. You may call Finsrud's device a working Torbay motor ... At last we have something genuine and something that for the first time in modern history demonstrates perpetual motion.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2006, 08:58:08 PM »
Many thanks for letting us know.
It would be good, if you could post a few of your videos,
when you are back home over here.
Many thanks.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2006, 08:58:08 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2006, 04:33:36 PM »
Just had a personal meeting with the retired professor from the Physics department  at Oslo Uniersity who has visited Finsrud some ten years ago and saw the device. As I said before, he is pretty sceptical, although he would accept it as a real phenomenon if it is proved through the application of the standard methods of science. His opinion is that Finsrud has placed a hidden motor with a battery inside the base of the motor and that keeps the ball turning. He does not have a direct proof of that suggestion but he says that it is for Finsrud to prove there is none.

Finsrud, however, is making no scientific claims, always insisting that this is only art and nothing else.

On the other hand, if true, this is a seminal experiment that should not be dependent on the psychology of one person or another. The experiment should be replicated no matter what.

I think there is some urgency to that since this is the only working experiment known to date and it should not vanish when Finsrud is gone. I also felt that Finsrud is afraid of something and that's why he doesn't want to pursue it along a scientific route. Of course, I am not Finsrud and cannot speak for him and his actual feelings and fears. What I'm writing here are only my impressions of what I saw.

I think there are two things to be done. First, a non-destructive way is to be sought (say, portable gamma-ray flaw detector) to observe directly the base and the supporting column holding the track so that any hidden motor be excluded. Second, the whole device has to be replicated and this should be the top priority of anybody interested in this field. I don't see anything more interesting in this field at this moment than Finsrud's device.

I also think the magician Randi should be contacted and asked to uncover the "trick", if any. He is a professional magician and as such should be expected to know how to uncover the tricks of his competitors without asking them to reveal their tricks by taking apart whatever they are showing on the stage. I will contact Randi upon my return to the states and it will be very good if he feels some pressure from other parties too.

Send me you comments, thoughts and ideas as to how this experiment can be proven real to the scientific community.

Offline mikestocks2006

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2006, 06:27:25 PM »
Many thanks for letting us know.
It would be good, if you could post a few of your videos,
when you are back home over here.
Many thanks.
Omnibus thnaks, and I second Hartibelin's remarks.

Some pics and and a video of the device:
http://www.galleri-finsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html

pretty interesting device, 3 pendulums, with attached three magnets, 3 stationary magnets?, and a ball on a circular bi rail track. (all magnets are red?)

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2006, 06:27:25 PM »
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Offline dingbat

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2006, 06:54:16 PM »
there is a spring visible that is large enough to keep such a device running for a very long time.  anniversary clocks and 400 day clocks run for a year and more on a very small wound up spring.  this device is enough similar to a clock that it could be running from stored energy in the big spring for years.  the spring visible in the device is a very strong spring for such a device.  it might continue inside the tube to the base of the device.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2006, 09:22:16 PM »
Hi Stefan, mikestrecks2006, dingbat,

I'm still in Norway and therefore cannot do anything with the videos. When I get back to New York I'll see what I can do to post them so that you can see in more detail the working of the device.

dingbat, the spring you're referring to cannot explain the effect. Will say a little more on that below. First, I want to tell all that Finsrud showed me his workshop (although he asked me not to video there). He began pulling preliminary experiment after preliminary experiment. These he has carried out in the course of many years (about 30 some years) all with the goal to study where Nature would take a given mass. He was able to show me remnants of at least ten experiments. Eventually he brought 12 ring magnets into the secure room where the main device is. He then distributed them randomly on the floor (by casting 12 coins -- minding the heads or tails) and then suspended another ring magnet from the seiling to act as a pendulum. With this experiment he wanted to demonstrate how he began constructing the device. At the beginning the mentioned pendulum was swaying as an ordinary one, following the expected path. As time went on, however, the pendulum started randomly to change its trajectory at times spinning almost in a circle even. The magnetic fields of the floor magnets were kicking in.

Then, he said, he made two more of these stations and connected the three pendulums observing further strange behavior -- when one pendulum stops another would restart it and so on. This phenomenon, he thinks, is at the basis of the principle of his device.

In my opinion, however, the main effect is due to the clever way of retracting the horse-shoe magnets right at the time when the steel ball approaches the "sticky point". This is achieved by a very careful timing and adjustment of the three pendulums responsible for the retraction of the magnets. One can easily see also three wires protruding between the tracks which are being pushed by the ball during its motion. These activities ensure asymmetrically stronger pull towards the magnet than the pull after the ball passes the magnet by.

I'll continue in another posting ... 

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2006, 09:22:16 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2006, 09:39:32 PM »
Continue ...

In addition there are three smaller magnets, positioned above the track slightly after each horse-shoe magnet. The role of these smaller magnets (very well tuned) is to somewhat slow down the run of the steel ball so that there wouldn't be too much acceleration. This is like adding more friction, which may be done through roughening the track, but doing it with a magnet is pretty clever. The physical properties of the track would change in time while the magnetic "friction" will always stay the same.

As I said, it is these factors that are the main players in the working of the device. The rest seems redundant. Finsrud, however, insists that the randomly imbedded magnets in the base of the device as well as the magnets at the bottom of the fourth pendulum, the pendulum that is within the central supporting column and is not visible, play a crucial role in the working of the device. That is why he went out of his way to demonstrate the experiment with the twelve ring magnets.

I asked him if he would allow a fiber optic camera to be inserted into the central cylinder so that it can be shown that there is no hidden motor there. Unfortunately, the top of the tube containing the fourth pendulum is sealed and there is no direct access to the internal void. That's why I mentioned above non-destructive methods with gamma-rays ...

The spring that dingbat is referring to is not wound and is only to suspend the top part of the device. There are many more springs as well as flexible metal plates acting as springs which Finsrud has used for suspension purposes. Also, the spring dingbat refers to does not go along the central core -- it is only what one can see in the picture. Same applies to the numerous other springs which are used only for suspension and flexibility and cannot be considered as storing the energy necessary to drive the device. Therefore, these springs are of no concern.

The main concern is to prove that there is nothing hidden in the base of the device which secretly would be the driving mechanism.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2006, 10:02:50 PM »
Continue ...

Finsrud insists that due to the proper suspensions the motion of the steel ball is causing various favorable vibrations which cause the device in want of a stop never to find that stop. The importance of these additional vibrations caused by the ball, however, isn't clear to me and at this moment I think that it is only a redundancy. This is only a hunch, however, and until I carry out my own replication I wouldn't know.

Finsrud insisted that due to the mentioned vibrations the track in front of the ball is always lower which is what really makes the ball move. However, you will see in the video which I took that this lowering of the track is almost indiscernable and the shift of the track caused by the ball is less that 1mm. This depression of the track is expected anyway from the mass of the ball which is almost 1kg. As I said before, the propelling of the ball seems to be caused by something else which is what is clever about Finsrud's device and is being copied by others such as Torbay -- the disbalance of the attraction when ball approaches the horse-shoe magnet versus the attraction when the ball passes the horse-shoe magnet. This disbalance is ensured by the clever way of retracting the magnets due to the very motion of the ball. The additional smaller magnets also have their role, as I explained earlier.

Of course, all this has to be replicated right away which may not be an easy task in view of the very demanding requirements for tuning up the device. Everything has to be benign, the magnets have to have just the right induction and by no means the goal should be to place monstrous neodymium magnets. The right characteristics and time constants of the pendulums are to be sought so that a perfect timing conditions can be achieved and so on. Otherwise, the actual making of the device doesn't seem to be too complicated but the tweaking would be crucial and requires a lot of patience.

He said that even he had had problems sometimes with starting the device. He said that recently people were coming to see it and he just hadn't been able to start it. He wasn't sure it will work when I arrived there. Luckily, however, he was able to start it at around 12:00 and it was working until the gallery closed at five. When I arrived the next day it was still working and he was able to tell by the pitch of the sound that it was healthy and will continue running. When I arrived the third day he said that it had stopped but when he opened the security door it turned out it is actually running, although it didn't sound to him as healthy as it should. He thought it will soon stop running but in fact it ran the whole time I was there.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2006, 10:02:50 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2006, 10:12:33 PM »
Continue ...

I should also mention one important aspect which Finsrud couldn't emphasize more -- the need to construct three rather than two-dimensional models of perpetual motion devices. He showed me various models of well-known non-working devices which he had tried to extend into a third dimension. A peculiar three-dimensional device is also the motor we are discussing here and which is the only working device which he has made (nothing else is needed). Indeed, the activity of the device includes not only running of a ball in the xy-plane but also a motion (of the horse-shoe magnets) along the z-axis. In his opinion the gallery of the non-working devices is full of such devices because they have always been thought of as two-dimensional and not three-dimensional such.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2006, 05:24:18 PM »
Has anyone heard of the initial construction of the Diesel engine? Finsrud looked in his files to show it to me but couldn't find it. This invention has been a perpetual motion, he says, but certain business interests have suppressed it. Does anyone know more about it?

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2006, 07:53:00 PM »
I was told, that in the footer
are just repelling magnet plates, which
just one plate is fixed to the stand and
the other is fixed to the upper device, so
it is always titling to the side and goes
back and forth titling and never finds
an equilibrium place.... so with the additional
upper devices, the device always moves.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2006, 11:00:49 PM »
Stefan, as I mentioned Finsrud very much emphasizes on the magnets you talk about, placed inside the base. These he considers the major components and his major achievement and is what he considers the functioning of the device is based on. He even made a special experiment with 12 ring magnets, demonstrating the principle. I have a video of that experiment as well. I?m, however, not so sure about that, that is, I?m not sure that these bottom magnets are at the basis of the machine?s functioning. As a matter of fact, I found out that he wasn?t too happy when I was asking him to explain more about these bottom magnets and how they are positioned. He seems to consider that his secret and wouldn?t divulge too much on that matter. As a matter of fact, it is exactly that part of the construction that gives the sceptics the most room for non-acceptance only because it cannot be seen what?s enclosed there.

As far as tilting goes, you will see from the video I?ll post how slight it is ? less than a millimeter. The lowering of the track indeed seems to appear ahead of the ball but I?m not sure this is the main reason for the motion of the ball. One would expect such depression of the track anyway. We are dealing with a steel ball of almost 1kg weight. It seems more likely to me that the general principles (dangling carrot in front of the donkey; cat chasing its tail) which we discussed at length with regard to Torbay?s and other motors are in fact responsible for the observed perpetuum mobile effect here. Obviously, Finsrud is the pioneer in this and everyone such as Torbay, for instance, are just building on these principles.

 

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