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Author Topic: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !  (Read 1491909 times)

Offline juan_86

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2040 on: September 15, 2012, 09:04:17 PM »
I must ask. Has anyone proved this concept?  I mean like in calculation and simulation, setup proper variable and take measurement like scientist does. Not to insult anyone, just want to know.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline markusbraunfe

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2041 on: September 15, 2012, 11:40:59 PM »
Hi,
we constructed several two stage oscillators by following the recommendations on the Milkovic page:
http://www.pendulum-lever.com/docs/Jovan_Marjanovic_Recommendations_for_Construction_and_Efficiency_Measuring.pdf
like using a lever relation of 3.5 : 1  , low vertical pivot displacement ( < 3-5%) , stiff beam, low friction bearings etc.

Currently our measurements do not show any overunity effect.

The best we achieved was perhaps an efficiency of around 90%.
We tested with several rod lengths ranging from 20cm to 1m weights 5-15kg.
We tried to keep the system simple and used two  ratchets with roller chains connected to the beam to extract the energy.
We made several tests by extracting the energy in both directions or only in one (downward or upward movement).
The energy extraction consisted in lifting a weight and measure the distance traveled vertically.
At the same time we measured the vertical height which the center of mass of the pendulum loses during each oscillation.

As soon as you extract energy from the system the pendulum loses energy and loses significant height after each oscillation.
We tried using large oscillation amplitudes (90 degrees) up to smaller (45 degrees).
And in any case the Efficiency was less than 100%, sometimes as bad as 50%.

Until we are missing something, we are less and less convinced that the double stage oscillator produces any overunity effect.
Unfortinately Milkovic did not do such measurements like lifting a weight with a ratchet.
He has some videos where he pumps water up, or lights up some flashlights but no measurement that proves that the system is overunity.

While we believe that there could be a possibility that the centrifugal force might produce free energy, perhaps the two stage oscillator has too low speed to clearly show the effect and it is very hard to tune the system and probably it is not practical to produce useful energy.
For example if you want to produce 3kW for your home and you have to build a pendulum which weighs several tons then it is not going to be a cheap energy source since the construction of such a large metallic structure would be expensive.

We are aware that i_ron measured a COP of 150% in his solenoid activated pendulum, but as far as we know he has not extracted the energy by using a ratchet or a generator but used the pendulum in hammer mode. And perhaps the hammer mode gives back much of the energy to the pendulum without doing "useful" work which could turn a generator or lift a weight.

We have some videos and data but we will not publish them yet because we want to perform more precise measurements.
But our hopes to discover OU with the two stage oscillator are not very big anymore.

Unless someone has the secret sauce and tells us how to tune the system by some magical "mechanical resonance" and other effects we cannot achieve.

Again, we are surprised that Milkovic and his team did not use a simple ratchet (for example a bicycle sprocket and a chain) and lifted a weight on the left side of the beam to measure how much the weight goes up during each oscillation and how much height the pendulum bob loses.
It does not require any machining or high tech equipement, but it is effective to measure the real energy that can be extracted.

We did not try to constantly push the pendulum because in theory at least at some amplitude the pendulum should be overunity in order to produce excess energy, otherwise it makes no sense to push the pendulum again. By constantly pushing it you just replenish the energy lost in the pendulum (vertical height).
We could try to push the pendulum by using a solenoid or some motorized lever and then measure the energy spent and compare it with the output work (weight lifted by the ratchet), but we believe it would probably lead to the same results.
Another test would be to let the pendulum do 360 degree rotation and extract the energy by the same method as I mentioned above.
Perhaps in this case the centrifugal force being much bigger would be more likely to show any overunity effect if there is one.
So far we are not aware of anyone having done measurements letting the pendulum rotate 360 degrees at costant speed.

We will keep you up to date as soon we will have more data from our measurements.

best regards,
Markus

Offline juan_86

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2042 on: September 16, 2012, 01:21:54 PM »
I try simulate with working model 2D and it show overunity clearly. Real model has a many loss. Can i see the lifting weight setup?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2042 on: September 16, 2012, 01:21:54 PM »
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Offline markusbraunfe

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2043 on: September 16, 2012, 05:43:02 PM »
I try simulate with working model 2D and it show overunity clearly. Real model has a many loss. Can i see the lifting weight setup?

To juan_86 and others that try to "measure" the two stage oscillator by using 2D physics simulation software:

I think the approach is completely flawed, because those programs only act by the standard laws of physics (newton), so of course no overunity
effect will show up.

Moreover, we live in a real world where at least some small friction is always present. So in order to extract useful energy, the system must overcome
this friction. So the only way to demonstrate clearly whether there is a real, practical overunity effect, is to build a real model of the machine and measure the outcome.
I find it hilarious that so many people still use physics simulation software and try to demonstrate if some machines (gravity wheels, etc)  show an overunity effect.
Of course it is easier and cheaper (basically free) to simulate those machines by using simulation software rather than building the real model.
But in case of overunity machines, we are  outside the conventional physics domain, and unfortunately classical-physics simulation software will miserably fail.
So start build your models and measure the data. The nature will not lie. Often small models will suffice because many processes in nature are repeatable at a smaller scale. If there is a gravity wheel design that works, then probably it works regardless whether it is 20cm  or 10metres in diameter.
The forces will of course be bigger but the effect should be reproducible on small scales models too.

Of course there are some exceptions, for example critical mass for atomic reactions etc, but I don't believe that overunity devices that do use gravity, inertia or centrifugal forces do have this critical mass (or size) requirements.

Offline Merg

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2044 on: October 01, 2012, 05:17:24 PM »
Two stage mech osc 360. by gdez1000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc6VT2XPTuA

Helping the Free Energy Movement
by MagnaMoRo
A response to the device built by gdez1000.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq6mXxEQJpc


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2044 on: October 01, 2012, 05:17:24 PM »
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Offline Aemilius

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    • THE COLE MECHANISM
The Cole Mechanism - A solution to "The Milkovic Problem"
« Reply #2045 on: October 07, 2012, 06:48:04 PM »
Hello everyone, thanks for the mention earlier Merg....

It seems this Milkovic fellow and I have been reading the same book.... but we ended up on very different pages. Comments and discussion welcome.... Discussion already under way at http://scienceforums.com/topic/26247-gravity-driven-mechanisms/.... Uninterupted analysis and video at http://thecolemechanism.blogspot.com/.... Analysis will continue as new ideas are formed and new parts are fitted.... Emile
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 10:20:12 PM by Aemilius »

Offline Merg

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2046 on: October 10, 2012, 12:54:31 AM »
Veljko Milkovic Research & Development Center
e-mail Newsletter - October 09, 2012 - News



1. Conclusion of Serbian Academy of Inventors and Scientists on the Two-Stage Oscillator of Veljko Milkovic

Commission members of the Serbian Academy of Inventors and Scientists - SAIN: Dr. Rato Ninkovic (president), Zvonko Jankovic (member) and Mato Zubac (member), on the basis of the submitted documentation and following a successful demonstration of the device in the Veljko Milkovic Research and Development Center and a successful public presentation at a special Academy assembly at the Chamber of Commerce of Vojvodina (Novi Sad, Serbia), on July 11, 2012, reached a conclusion that the paper “Analysis and Opinion on the Two-Stage Oscillator by Veljko Milkovic” by Prof. Tosic Bratislav, PhD, and the hypothesis that the oscillations are more efficient than rotation and therefore the possible invention, currently when used in stationary machines (pumps, compressors, power generators, etc.), is more important than the wheel, can be fully acknowledged.

Conclusion of SAIN Academy
 
http://www.pendulum-lever.com/docs/Conclusion_Serbian_Academy_of_Inventors_and_Scientists_Veljko_Milkovic.pdf
 
Veljko Milkovic Research & Development Center and academician Veljko Milkovic himself are open to further questioning and calling on all institutions and individuals to consider the exposed thesis and potential implementation of oscillations in other areas of science and technology.
 
   
2. Video: The World of Pendulum Power
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Do_dTI_Ow   
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2046 on: October 10, 2012, 12:54:31 AM »
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Offline Aemilius

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    • THE COLE MECHANISM
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2047 on: October 11, 2012, 02:34:07 AM »
Commission members of the Serbian Academy of Inventors and Scientists “....the oscillations are more efficient than rotation and therefore the possible invention, currently when used in stationary machines (pumps, compressors, power generators, etc.), is more important than the wheel, can be fully acknowledged."

Well, that may be an accurate statement in a narrow sense as far as the Milkovic arrangement is concerned, but to generate real power you've got to have speed. The elepahant in the room here is that the Milkovic arrangement is inherently slow.... in other words it's limited to a working speed that corresponds to the natural periodicity of the pendulum being employed. Another problem with it is that as it's sized up its motion will become even more slow and lumbering. My machine has no such restrictions.... it can go from a dead stop to rotating at 100 rotations per minute after just five or six well timed repetitions of a relatively small (3 to 5 degrees) back and forth imbalancing action performed on the Control Lever.   

"Video: The World of Pendulum Power
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Do_dTI_Ow"


I watched the video.... Computer animations are always a red flag for me as a builder, there are millions of "working Bessler Wheel" animations and we all know how that turned out. The video actually helps prove my point though.... the first generator shown with the swinging pendulum clearly moves too slowly to generate any kind of useful voltage or current, and the next one shown, the one with the "hammer" swinging around 360 degrees also obviously moves too slowly to be considered as a practical machine when it come to power generation. None of the arrangements shown can be either speeded up or sized up which is a brick wall across the road to viability. The sized up pendulum in the oil pumping arrangement amply illustrates how the motion becomes even slower and more lumbering when attempting to size up the arrangement. The pump application seems plausible enough, since speed is not a factor in the aplication.

Similarities between our machines....

1. Both the Milkovic Two-Stage Oscillator and The Cole Mechanism employ pendulous motion.

2. Both the Milkovic Two-Stage Oscillator and The Cole Mechanism require relatively little input of energy.

Differences between our machines....

1. The Milkovic Two-Stage Oscillator cannot be speeded up because it's limited to a working speed that corresponds to the natural periodicity of the pendulum being employed.... The Cole Mechanism can be speeded up because it isn't limited by the natural periodicity of the pendulum being employed.
 
2. The Milkovic Two-Stage Oscillator cannot be sized up without becoming slow and lumbering.... The Cole Mechanism can be sized up without losing the important element of speed that a practical machine needs to be effective.

There are other differences too, but I think those two are the most significant.... Emile

Offline cristache

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2048 on: October 11, 2012, 03:27:34 AM »
@Aemilius

Did you make any calculations in regards to energy, initial/final in different stages of your mechanism?
Did these calculations show extra energy gained by the system?


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2048 on: October 11, 2012, 03:27:34 AM »
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Offline MoRo

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2049 on: October 11, 2012, 05:25:46 AM »
This is a simulation of the idea I am working on in a prototype:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNPR2foT2J4

Notes on the subject:
  1) Energy input should be measured for each 1/2 cycle of the masses full rotation.
  2) Energy output should be measured over the amplitude of each direction change.

Offline cristache

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2050 on: October 11, 2012, 05:30:38 AM »
I saw that.
Can you calculate the lifting force based on motor torque and distance to the lifted weight?
That would explain the force being able to lift the weight.
Energy wise I don't see where the gain is.
I can lift 10kg by spending energy and by letting the weight go down from where I lifted it, I will get back that energy.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2050 on: October 11, 2012, 05:30:38 AM »
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Offline MoRo

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2051 on: October 11, 2012, 05:45:28 AM »
I saw that.
Can you calculate the lifting force based on motor torque and distance to the lifted weight?
That would explain the force being able to lift the weight.
Energy wise I don't see where the gain is.
I can lift 10kg by spending energy and by letting the weight go down from where I lifted it, I will get back that energy.

This video has nothing to do with lifting. Maybe you need to look again.

Offline cristache

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2052 on: October 11, 2012, 05:54:17 AM »
Oh my bad!

It is easy for this to calculate.
You have the motor rpm and torque, you can calculate the power and energy spend per one rotation
On the weights side you have the friction forces and the distance traveled which multiplied gives the mechanical work.
Then you can compare the 2

Offline Aemilius

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    • THE COLE MECHANISM
Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2053 on: October 11, 2012, 07:28:25 AM »
cristache "Did you make any calculations in regards to energy, initial/final in different stages of your mechanism?
Did these calculations show extra energy gained by the system?"


Not yet.... but I have a procedure.

There's one thing I can assure you of.... it will have nothing to do with flashlights! I'm going to great lengths now (and will be for some time to come) to illustrate stage by stage in that blog (http://thecolemechanism.blogspot.com/) exactly what's happening with my mechanism. Eventually blueprints will be included too. I can't imagine going to all that trouble and then somehow coming to the conclusion that resorting to the use flashlights was any kind of reliable standard of measurement.... I need hard data.
 
With reference to the developing ongoing analysis at the blog I think anyone can see that if a particular weight is assigned to a particular length of arrow, simple vector analysis is perfectly appropriate for calculating the values. Using this system, all the various forces coming to bear on all the various parts, degree by degree, separately or in combination, at any point around three hundred and sixty degrees can be foretold with a reasonable degree of certainty.... I'm working that out now.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 07:32:10 PM by Aemilius »

Offline Grk

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Re: 12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !
« Reply #2054 on: November 15, 2012, 07:34:15 PM »
Hi,
I came across very interesting thing on the site of Veljko Milkovic.
Firstly, I saw a verified document that states that oscillations are superior than rotation. http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Docs/Conclusion_Serbian_Academy_of_Inventors_and_Scientists_Veljko_Milkovic.pdf
 
And, another thing that catch my eye is Press with a pendulum and magnets, also called Magnetic-gravity hybrid because it combines gravity force, centrifugal force and magnets.  Device is the same size as Two-stage oscillator, but it has additional permanent magnets in pendulum. Makes large density of energy, and has a wide range for potential use (pumps, compressors, power generators, etc.).

 

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