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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo  (Read 3977028 times)

Offline chalamadad

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5490 on: January 21, 2012, 09:09:35 PM »
I would like to try one of those 3-pin Schottky diodes from a power supply to rectify my driving coils output. Anybody knows how I would have to connect it?
I have got two of those: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/S/T/P/S/STPS2045CT.shtml
Thanks, Chal

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5491 on: January 21, 2012, 11:49:41 PM »
Just connect A1 and A2 pins together to have the two diodes in parallel and use it as if it were a single diode.
(You cannot make a diode bridge from  your two such diodes because both have their cathodes connected inside the casing.)

MAke sure the AC peak voltage from the coils do not exceed 35-40V , to reach the maximum 45V reverse voltage rating.

Gyula

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5492 on: January 22, 2012, 01:15:43 AM »
Hey everybody. Finally doing some more work on this project.
I've been waiting to see what ZFF is building but I have not seen any new videos or updates to his page in 3 months so I am just going to go ahead and build something.

I am building coils that are a little larger than the original sewing bobbins.
I already have, on hand, a bag of ferrite rods (from another project) that measure 10mm diameter X 20mm long and are grade 4B1.
And I found some off-the-shelf fiber washers ( www.amzn/B000FMWTNE ) that are suitable for bobbin ends and easy to glue to the ferrite rods with regular acrylic adhesive which will also work well to glue the coils directly to an acrylic frame.

I now have all my bobbins, plus a few spares, assembled for the first prototype and just need to start winding. (See attached)
I do have a spool of Litz wire, as was described earlier in this thread, although not sure if Litz wire really makes a difference at these lower frequencies.

I do wonder; has anybody ever considered using the best of two worlds to build a new design?
I propose using the magnetic vortex of the Marko Rodin / Randy Powell coil as the primary mover to drive the cogless alternator of the Bill Muller/Phil Wood Dynamo.
Does the image of this mock-up spark any new ideas? (See attached)
If one was to build such a thing, what might be the effects, of the magnetic vortex, on the Muller rotor and coils?


Offline Khwartz

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5493 on: January 22, 2012, 01:26:55 AM »
Hi Mariu
In the top picture on this page from my site, is the circuit wtih a "AC leg of FWBR 2nd swtich"
http://sites.google.com/site/alternativeworldenergy/pulsed-dc-backemf-recoil-recovery-circuits
in the photo below it, you see 4 brushes, but  this a double-pulse thing going on, you only need 2 brushes really to show concept....this is a bit confusing with the 4 brushes...also circuit of it is underneath photo.
simple experiment I like to do for fun sometimes is run DC pulse motor on 24V and dump DC side of FWBR directly into battery bank of 12V batteries in paralell - no caps at all...batteries for sure get a good charge, and you can get a speed up if you find timing sweet spot, with that AC LEG 2nd switch...
This particular circuit shown at top of page has the AC legs of the FWBR across the motor coil swtihcing itself...not across the motor coils, but sometimes the AC legs work a little better across the coils, rather than the motor coil switching as shown, so experiment with where to stick the AC legs of the FWBR.
functions of S1 and S2 in this simple drawing is what I was trying to explain...S1 is your switch that drives the motor coil pulsing, and S2 is the swtich that connects the backemf/recoil into a cap...
the timing of it is S2 is about 5 degrees retarded to S1 - like an "echo"
since S2 is on AC leg of FWBR, you should use a bidirectional mosfet there, if using mosfets, since it is switching a spikey AC (sort of)  as this switch connects the FWBR..
Hi Konehead!
I've tried to modify the schematic you've already posted here "PULSEWDITHADJUSTCOILSHORT.jpg", taking care of your directives and "BACKEFM/RECOIL RECOVERY BATTERY CHARGER". Would you say it's what you wanted to advise Mariuscivic to do? or do I have to make corrections?

Offline konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5494 on: January 22, 2012, 03:45:22 AM »
hi Khwartz
No it doesnt look right - modifying that double-bidirectional pulse-width adjstument cirucit makes it more difficult to figure out what is going on  too...
think like this:
SW1 connects 12V battery to motor coil and it is timed to pulse the rotor around, just like any DC pulse motor coil...the SW1  can be anything you want; transistor, mechanical brush-commutator, mosfets...
that SW1 will have "two sides" to it;  the "in" and "out", you can call them, just like any switch will have.
Now take the AC LEGS of a FWBR, and put one AC leg on IN of the switch, and the other AC LEG on the OUT of the switch....this is pretty easy to follow so far eh...
Put the DC side of the FWBR onto a DC capacitor, or a DC load like a 6V battery...(something)
still easy to follow I hope...
Now on JUST ONE AC LEG of the FWBR, put a 2nd switch , which connects the AC leg of the FWBR to "one side" of that motor coil switch (remember you have two AC legs across that motor coil swtich already and so now you want to have a switch on jsut one of the two AC legs)
The 2nd swtihc turns ON about 5 degrees retarded, to the timing of the motor coil switch, and when it turns ON (closes) it connects the backemf/recoil of the motor coil's collapse at its turn-off to that DC cap, and does this only during the time the 2nd swtich is ON
 

Offline Khwartz

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5495 on: January 22, 2012, 04:42:00 AM »
Understand Kone, and very thanks for your reply. I think what you explain fit exactly with the schematic of your web-site you gave just up to here the link to.

But for me, it's exactly the same, just I have replaced swicht 2 by the Bid ;) You think it couldn't work or work lesser? Cause I've read you many times advising for MOFSETs and bidMOFSETs, so now i'm very surprised that you tell me "no"! lol ;)

Could you tell me more why you would not see Bid here?

Offline chalamadad

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5496 on: January 22, 2012, 11:34:04 AM »
Just connect A1 and A2 pins together to have the two diodes in parallel and use it as if it were a single diode.
(You cannot make a diode bridge from  your two such diodes because both have their cathodes connected inside the casing.)
MAke sure the AC peak voltage from the coils do not exceed 35-40V , to reach the maximum 45V reverse voltage rating.

Gyula

Thanks, gyula. So to make a FWBR I would need three of those, I see. That voltage limitation is a shame because the coil puts out up to more than 50 Volts AC. Wish I could make use of the full potential. Currently I manage to rectify maybe 50% of it which is enough to drive a second driving coil.

@Scorch: Just proceed with the original design, use original driver circuit, no special extras needed (unifilar coils is good enough), is my advice. The motor is already a mixture of different earlier devices, such as muller motor and adams motor. Do not tune for speed, rather for minimal input with max output. Good luck and keep us updated how things are developing.

Offline chalamadad

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5497 on: January 22, 2012, 02:46:29 PM »
I almost forgot to mention - I can give an update about the oscillating coil configuration: So far I could only get it into oscillation/singing mode if the wiring was attractive and the backing magnets repelling. Yesterday I found out it works in repelling wiring is as well. The hall had to be placed differently, in my case turned upside down facing the rotor magnets, the hall itself was above the coil. But the conclusion is that it is working with an attracting or a repelling wired coil and that means that polarity does not matter at all.

I was testing for while now with single driving coil only. Today I installed a second coil to make the driving coil a coilpair again. A first test shows that the oscillation remains but the driving force, torque and possible speed improves well compared to the single coil. The AC cap value (20nF) parallel to the coilpair did not have to be changed to get minimal current draw.

Below is a scopeshot of the oscillation waveform. Division is 1µs so one cycle takes less than 3 µs. This is above the audible range. Does anybody know typical self resonant frequency of iron powder cores? Just wonder if this might match.

Chal

Offline Khwartz

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5498 on: January 22, 2012, 03:09:20 PM »
But the conclusion is that it is working with an attracting or a repelling wired coil and that means that polarity does not matter at all.
Many "halls" are just contacts: one fixed the other moving and attracted or repealed under magnetic fields which comes in contact or not; nothing to have with the "hall effect"! ;) but to know how they are exactly conceived could help sometimes to avoid double-swichings and so on :)

Regards.

Offline konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5499 on: January 22, 2012, 07:39:31 PM »
Hi Khwartz
The switch coming off the coil is not right - it disconnects the coil.
That is what the motor-coil switch is supposed to be doing.,. the FWBR
"2nd switch" only connects the backemf/recoil circuit to fill cap or hit load...
that circuit is for pulse widht adjsutment for coil-shorting at peaks, not for a motor coil pulse....they are different - you modified a coil-shorting cirucit, instead you should modify a motor coil pulsing circuit wiht the FWBR and 2nd swiitch...
 

Offline konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5500 on: January 22, 2012, 10:17:19 PM »
hi all
I got some info from secret source who got it from a secret source who heard from someone else secret that got that from someone else secret that what R did with his looper is run facing coils in series, but "cancelling" series, so that when you short, or heavily load, the two facing coils connected in series, it doesnt lug at all with Lenz law  -
BUT the trick,  is to MISALIGN the top core/coil to the bottom core/coil, and this misalignment pulls them sort of 90 degrees out of phase to the sweep of the rotor magnet.
so I tried this out in my 4 magnet rotor, 5 coils each side w/backing magnets R-"variant" ....the misalignment I had set up is:
when the bottom CORE is perfeclty centered to the rotormagnet,,  the top facing CORE,  is NOT centered to the rotor magnet, rather it has it's "trailing edge" centered to the rotor magnet...so in my R-variant test machine, the way it looks from looking from the side at it, as the rotor spins counter-clockwise,  is that the top coil is about 6mm to the right, of the bottom coil  and they are not perfectly lined up anymore....you cant really see it at first glance - you have to really look for the misalingment - maybe R did this in his videos and photos, but you coulndt tell through the videos and photos...
The way I did this was to just shift the whole upper plate over a little bit so the whole stator plate of coils becomes misaligned.....then I just ran one or two  of the lower-plate coils as motor coils to spin it.
It wasnt  going too fast, was running on only 9VDC, but there was 3V into 850uf cap is what I got, no loading at all to shaft rotation, didnt get any speed up mabye with more RPMS it would... didnt work on it that long of time but it looks really promising, since I chould fill large-size cap without lugging motor to 3V and there are 4 pairs of coils so that is around 12V with no lugging into 4 of these 850uf caps and that is enough power to run it by itself since it can run on a 850uf "run cap" that gets the battery swtiched into it everytime...
 
anyways maybe someone else here can give it a try- just shift the top plate over a little bit figuring to make 90 degree phase difference from magnet sweep past top core as compared to bottom core is idea - and then have the coils wired series-cancelling too...
 

Offline mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5501 on: January 23, 2012, 02:09:34 AM »
Hi Konehead
I  tryed this my self and spent a lot of time with this missalligment of the two coils. If you do it with only one pair of coils you  will get something without lenz but then when you will put all the pair coils you'll get something more but then lenz appears too. Please try it too with all the coils ; maybe you will find something new.
Today i have build a new coil. This one has 11 layers of wire all winded in the same direction (it tooked me half a day to make it).with this coil i tooked my litlle hdd rotor up to 2230rpm with only 24.1mA/12.5V.( with a 1uF cap accros the coil).I think this is a good result

Offline konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5502 on: January 23, 2012, 04:26:05 AM »
hi Mariu
those are called "directional" wound coils - I assume you wind layer from back to front, and then grab the end of the layer that comes out at the front, and pull it all the way straight-back to the back of it, and start next layer and again, winding from back to front, then pull back to the back again and do it again....so all the layers of vinds "go" the same direction like you say...
What I do is pull it straight back "on top" of the layer, BUT before pulling back. put a layer of telfon plumbing tap over the whole layer, then after that, pull wire straight  back, and lay it on top of the teflon tape-covered layer, then after it is back at the back again, lay another layer of teflon tape over it again, this time covering that pulled straight back portion too....so the straight-back portion of the winds is sandwiched between the teflon to prevent chaffing of the enamel......this however makes not a perfect round  tight looking  coil like yours came out to...I never pullback on top of another pullbacked portion of winds to prevent bulges in final coil shape...
also I made coils before where the "straight back portion" is acutally a thin round tube of tin, and I solder the wire to the tin, so you can make a "capacitor coil" like that, if you also sandwich the tin-tube between some thin tubes of mylar or something similar....these were lots of hassle to wind but they were powerful and worked like caps at same time they were coils...
Acually just last night coincidently, I replaced a couple of the motor-coils in my Romero-variant with some directional coils like this..(not the cap-coils, just regular direcitonals with the teflon tape).
I notice they do help when you have a core - someone else I know confimred it too with tests long ago.... the flux is concentrated, with more of a cannon-like effect so it pushes the rotor magnet harder and faster with less draw like you just got....with aircores, I couldnt find much difference but maybe there is.
I like to tell people it is like the difference between an omni-directional microphone, which picks up sound in the entire room, and a uni-directional microphone, whic picks up only a singers voice, directed right at the microphone....so the directional-winds in amotor coil,  is like the winds in a uni-directional microphone...
As for the series-cancelling idea, so far it looks good for me at least - next step I want to do is the double-FWBRs over each facing pair,,,I have idea that the two FWBRs are of different diodes, so they will also take out more power since they each pick up a little more of each out-of-phase coil....Romero said it made one more volt per coil pair...
Also want to try this series cancelling misalignment thing with some aircores....I have rotovertor AC motor spinning a failry large Mullergen with aircores, and 8 fairly large neomangets in rotor (soon to be only 4 all-N) with 8 aircoils each side of the rotor on stator plates...what I want to do is the outside stator plate is going to have some slots cut into it, were the mounting-bolts go through - so I can rotate the single outside stator plate a bit so its out of alignment while it is actually running, and watch the voltmeter over a big UF cap as it fills, while also watching the ammeter to the rotovertor motor...all this of course with the coils connected series-cancelling...the idea is to really nail the sweet-spot of misalingment where the coils are actually 90 degrees out of phase....also can have dual trace-scope on each coil and see if 90 degrees is really the best out of phase angle to be at or that is jsut theory about 90 degrees,,,,,,
also while testing the series-cancelling misalignment confiuration last night, as you would expect,  I looked at shorting thosecoils, by quick and dirty test of  just touching the two leads of series-connected coils together, so was shorting them at a very random timing........did this with a deadshort over the DC side of the FWBR, and alsw without dead short on DC side of FWBR...
It knocked the voltage up in the 850uf cap both ways - going from 3V to 12V after a few of them...so looks like the peak coil shorting thing can be combined with the misaligned series connection method too....this might be really something, as then it is possible to fill very large caps with coil shorting at peaks, without lenz lugging because of the big cap...
When you got the lenz with lots of coils, did you have FWBRs over each, and they connect at the DC side, in paralell, or did you connect them all first, then put into single FWBR?

Offline Khwartz

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5503 on: January 23, 2012, 01:36:30 PM »
Hi Khwartz
Hi! thanks for replying  :)

Quote
The switch coming off the coil is not right
Do you mean "S1"?

Quote
- it disconnects the coil.
Yes, it connects it to the first battery, right? it's like in your "BackEFM/Recoil recovery battery charger", so i don't see the problem here; I've checked my schematic: it's exactly the same wiring... :/

Quote
That is what the motor-coil switch is supposed to be doing.,.
"S1"?

Quote
the FWBR "2nd switch" only connects the backemf/recoil circuit to fill cap or hit load...
ok, thanks having specified for "2nd switch" only function :)

Quote
that circuit is for pulse widht adjsutment for coil-shorting at peaks, not for a motor coil pulse....they are different
Ok, understand.

Quote
- you modified a coil-shorting cirucit, instead you should modify a motor coil pulsing circuit wiht the FWBR and 2nd swiitch...
Indeed, I had taken your motor coil pulsing circuit and just replace the "2nd switch" by the BidMOFSET circuit, but I understand now that useless because no need of width adjustment ?
but can't we replace each time each switch by 1 Hall and 1 Bid, I mean theoretically?

Offline Khwartz

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5504 on: January 23, 2012, 02:11:53 PM »
hi all
I got some info from secret source who got it from a secret source who heard from someone else secret that got that from someone else secret

Hi again Kone, and thanks for the "secret source who got it from a secret source who heard from someone else secret that got that from someone else secret"-secret ;)

Quote
w/backing magnets R-"variant"
Sorry, what means "w/backing"? is that wiring backward like counter-clock the down-coil, when the up-coil is clock wired?
 
 
Quote
....the misalignment I had set up is:
when the bottom CORE is perfeclty centered to the rotormagnet,,  the top facing CORE,  is NOT centered to the rotor magnet, rather it has it's "trailing edge" centered to the rotor magnet...so in my R-variant test machine, the way it looks from looking from the side at it, as the rotor spins counter-clockwise,  is that the top coil is about 6mm to the right, of the bottom coil  and they are not perfectly lined up anymore....you cant really see it at first glance - you have to really look for the misalingment - maybe R did this in his videos and photos, but you coulndt tell through the videos and photos...
Wow! what a breakthrough if it works! :D Very well see :)
 
Quote
The way I did this was to just shift the whole upper plate over a little bit so the whole stator plate of coils becomes misaligned.....then I just ran one or two  of the lower-plate coils as motor coils to spin it.
It wasnt  going too fast, was running on only 9VDC, but there was 3V into 850uf cap is what I got, no loading at all to shaft rotation, didnt get any speed up mabye with more RPMS it would... didnt work on it that long of time but it looks really promising, since I chould fill large-size cap without lugging motor to 3V and there are 4 pairs of coils so that is around 12V with no lugging into 4 of these 850uf caps and that is enough power to run it by itself since it can run on a 850uf "run cap" that gets the battery swtiched into it everytime...
Wish that you're right!! :)
Could you tell me the frequency of filling/empty cap cycle?
Am I correct to calculate this way: 1/2 * (4*850*10^(-6)[F]) * 12^2[V] =~ 0.252[J] by cycle ?
or voltage doesn't drop to zero Volt I supposed... so from which voltage to which voltage it oscillates by each cycle please?
It will train me to calculate an estimation of the outpower.