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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo  (Read 3316510 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5325 on: November 22, 2011, 03:10:10 PM »
Hi Gyula


Which DC-DC converter would you choose to be good for looping BEMF output to source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Regulator-Step-up-Step-down-2-1-/370538642812?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5645d2fd7c#ht_1990wt_914


or this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Converter-Isolated-Power-Supply-In18V-75V-Out-12V-6W-/350287013003?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item518ebba48b#ht_953wt_1396


JoeFR

Hi Joe,
 
Both could be a good choice...   if you need only a fixed 12V output at 0.5A max, then the second one is ok,, here is its data sheet:
http://www.szfore-sight.com/pic/p/20107920417271.pdf 
so it has a 81% efficiency and 17mA idle current. This idle current is not known for the first converter, also it does not turn out if it is isolated or not.  Probably not because otherwise it would mentioned.  But this first one has a wide input range and adjustable output voltage range, with 2A current load possibility, claimed efficiency also sounds good. The missing idle current data and if it is isolated or not could be asked from the seller or from the Asia Engineer on ebay.
 
The Maplin choice Deepcut has just mentioned has a 3A current load possibity, with step-switchable output voltages, though it needs higher than 12V input to get the max allowable 12V output. Its input voltage range may extend to 15-16V only, designed for cars. I have not noticed efficiency claims for this, I assume at least over 80%...
 
Gyula

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5325 on: November 22, 2011, 03:10:10 PM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5326 on: November 22, 2011, 03:17:36 PM »
Hi Gyula,

Thanks for the reply, I'd rather not use that ciruit, co'z im generating more heat and more input power, poor efficiency... :(

can you suggest a dc to dc converter ciruit that maybe a much better design to bulid? from where i live it's hard to find a ready made high efficiency converter...

cc

If you mean you would build one from components then the first thing to define is the input voltage range and output current needs.  Then comes the component costs and you may end up with similar prices like ebay offers... lol  though postage cost may make the ebay choice more expensive than building from components. 
So I suggest to define your specs and we may find a schematic and the needed components.
 
Gyula

Offline highrollerscorp

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5327 on: November 22, 2011, 06:16:28 PM »
so i just need to hook up two meters in series then short one to amps and let the other meter read the volts?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5327 on: November 22, 2011, 06:16:28 PM »
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Offline DeepCut

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5328 on: November 22, 2011, 09:39:03 PM »
I have trouble with it sometimes and i'm not sure why.

But you're meant to measure the amps in series with a load on the gen coils, the load can just be a resistor, and the voltage in parallel with the load.

I just tried it just now to video it for ya but i can't measure the current :(


Offline joefr

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5329 on: November 22, 2011, 10:27:35 PM »
Hi all


Here is my new video after long time where I am testing the No Hall Pulse Motor Mosfet driver and BEMF CAP Charge and Discharge to load ( light bulb ) circuit Arduino controlled.
I am using the principle which Kone is saying is good to capture and use BEMF from drive coils:
Charge CAP from BEMF -> Disconnect CAP from drive coil -> Dump stored energy from CAP to load -> Disconnect CAP from load and repeat the cycle.
In my test the motor RPM drops a little but I have to find a sweet spot and the right CAP size to speed up the rotor while using the BEMF.


OK here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a75Gf7yrCCA


JoeFR




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5329 on: November 22, 2011, 10:27:35 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5330 on: November 22, 2011, 11:52:54 PM »
Hi Joe,

I think you have done an excellent test and although you have not reached extra output over the input the results are good for a single drive coil. NOTICE: I did not consider the mechanical energy of the rotor, only the recovered electrical energy and the bulb does not fully discharge the capacitor.
You let the 330uF cap charge up under about 125ms to 43.6V and the 24V bulb discharges it in about 75ms to 28.4V if I can see it correctly.  So if I am not mistaken,  you charge and discharge the cap 5 times per second (125+75=200ms,  1/200ms=5Hz) so the bulb takes out about  0.18*5=0.9W power in any second.  I hope I am correct with the calcs, see Doug's example on such calcs here: http://www.overunity.com/3842/muller-dynamo/msg306002/#msg306002 

Keep up the good work.

Gyula

Hi all


Here is my new video after long time where I am testing the No Hall Pulse Motor Mosfet driver and BEMF CAP Charge and Discharge to load ( light bulb ) circuit Arduino controlled.
I am using the principle which Kone is saying is good to capture and use BEMF from drive coils:
Charge CAP from BEMF -> Disconnect CAP from drive coil -> Dump stored energy from CAP to load -> Disconnect CAP from load and repeat the cycle.
In my test the motor RPM drops a little but I have to find a sweet spot and the right CAP size to speed up the rotor while using the BEMF.


OK here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a75Gf7yrCCA


JoeFR

Offline joefr

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5331 on: November 23, 2011, 12:11:15 AM »
Hi Gyula Thanks for calculation


I get the same results so you made correct calculation. I will try different CAP size and different voltages tomorrow to see if I can get better output.


JoeFR

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5331 on: November 23, 2011, 12:11:15 AM »
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Offline crazycut06

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5332 on: November 23, 2011, 01:07:38 AM »
Hi Gyula,


If you mean you would build one from components then the first thing to define is the input voltage range and output current needs.  Then comes the component costs and you may end up with similar prices like ebay offers... lol  though postage cost may make the ebay choice more expensive than building from components.  So I suggest to define your specs and we may find a schematic and the needed components. Gyula


Yes that's what i mean, anyway my rig is dismantled right now, im still working on my rotor, lot's of wobbling, and also i'm going to wind some new coils, after that i'll see what my generator output is, will be posting soon....


@ Deepcut


Thank's for the suggestion, I live in a poor man's land so i can't afford and don't have the capability to buy online... :'(
im just trying to use what is available here.




Thank's Guys! ;)  regards Cc


Offline mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5333 on: November 23, 2011, 01:38:17 AM »
Hi guys
Earlier i said that i looped bemf back into the battery.Obviosly i didn't connected right couse now when i try  to loop again it gives me lots of sparks on the both wires( just like shorting). The negative wire from DC/DC conv. i managed to connect it to the battery negative by puting one diode. But it doesn't work with the positive one.
Anyway, i built 5 romero driving circuits (need to do 3 more) and i colect the bemf from all 5. The 22000uF/35V cap is filling up in 5-6 seconds and all this with less curent consumed  and a gain in rpm

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5333 on: November 23, 2011, 01:38:17 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5334 on: November 23, 2011, 12:16:01 PM »
Hi guys
Earlier i said that i looped bemf back into the battery.Obviosly i didn't connected right couse now when i try  to loop again it gives me lots of sparks on the both wires( just like shorting). The negative wire from DC/DC conv. i managed to connect it to the battery negative by puting one diode. But it doesn't work with the positive one.
Anyway, i built 5 romero driving circuits (need to do 3 more) and i colect the bemf from all 5. The 22000uF/35V cap is filling up in 5-6 seconds and all this with less curent consumed  and a gain in rpm

Hi Marius,

I would suggest to wind a 1:1 transformer onto ferrite pot core, hopefully you can obtain pot cores with a diameter of at least 23-25mm in your country, see here what I mean:
http://www.surplussales.com/inductors/FerPotC/FerPotC-1.html 
The higher the so-called AL value for the pot core, the better for you because the less number of turns is needed:  L=N^2*AL  so if you have AL=4700  (this is in nH/N^2), then for say N=50 turns, L=50^2*4700=2500*4700nH=11.75mH 
If you could make 5 such 1:1 pot cored transformers then relatively cheaply you could solve the correct 'chain-connection' of the 5 stages, I edited your earlier schematic to show for two such stages how I mean.  Principle: By connecting one of the coils of the 1:1 transformer in parallel with the driving coil, the back emf spike would be transformed to the the other, galvanically isolated coil of the transformer.   To make such transformer, you could wind two wires guided close to each other as if you were making a bifilar coil onto the bobbin.  It is important that the transformer coil which is connected in parallel with the driving coil, should have 8 to 10 times as high L inductance than the driving coil has.  So if your driving coil has 1-2mH inductance, your transformer coil should have 15-20mH, this is why high AL value pot cores are needed. 
(Notice: perhaps the use of diode bridges instead of the single diode rectifiers at the output of the 1:1 transformers could be better?)

What do you think of this pot core suggestion?

Gyula

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5335 on: November 23, 2011, 04:53:12 PM »
...
Anyway, i built 5 romero driving circuits (need to do 3 more) and i collect the bemf from all 5. The 22000uF/35V cap is filling up in 5-6 seconds and all this with less curent consumed  and a gain in rpm

Hi Marius,
 
Just realized that you do not need 5 isolating transformers but one.  It is just enough to use one such 1:1 transformer to feed the DC/DC converter to insure there can be no short circuit between the rest of the stages when you close the loop.  (The supply wires of the in-between stages do not disturb each other in any way till looping so you can wire the stages as you showed in your schematic yesterday and use a 1:1 transformer in the last driving stage to feed the DC/DC converter fully isolated from the other stages.)  What do you think?
 
Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5335 on: November 23, 2011, 04:53:12 PM »
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Offline mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5336 on: November 23, 2011, 05:43:20 PM »
Hi Gyula

I have tryed one transformer but is not working.I have almost nothing in the other coil.It behaves just like an resistor. In my curent setup i'm not recycling the bemf but, i store it into this large new cap(47000 uF) from all 5 driving circuits.The cap charges up to 50V  and  discharge it with no drag. But the voltage must be always over 15V in order to see no drag. 
This is my new video where you can see that the super cap is being charged with no drag
http://youtu.be/N0mviNIk34I

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5337 on: November 23, 2011, 06:23:02 PM »
Hi Marius,
 
Now I think I understand your setup and how you collect back emf from each coil pair into a common puffer cap via individual rectifier diodes.  At the moment all I can suggest is to use an isolating type of DC/DC converter like joefr showed yesterday in an ebay link, maybe you can obtain such or similar in your country too. 
I will think on this setup how the isolation of the input supply pins from the puffer cap supply pins could be achieved. 
Do you happen to have an L meter? It would make things easier a bit   :) 
 
Gyula

Offline mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5338 on: November 23, 2011, 06:36:24 PM »
Hi Gyula

For now i'll try to adapt this circuit.The secondary of transformer should go to the battery

Offline konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5339 on: November 23, 2011, 07:54:15 PM »
Hi Joe
 
Nice experiments - easy to see everything going on in your video too...
 
My two cents worth are first your "primary" pulse width seems sort of wide to your motor coil - it looks around 50/50 on off duty cycle too...and the pulse "flat tops" for awhile too - I think you will get better perecentat of power recvoered vs power spent in backemf/recoil recovery if you dont let those motor coils "saturate" like they do (as soon as that voltage-peak starts to go horizontal it is sort of saturated   I mean by thiis)
Someone told me long ago that the primary pulse will work like big snowball rolling down the hill if it stays on too long - and it will snowball that backwards spike and backwards bemf into going the way the primary wants to go wheich is backwards to the way the bemf stuff wants to go - so anyways if you can somehow clip that morot-pulse much shorter pulse width I think it will really help....if you want the same amount of power and rpm as you have now, then do a cluster of pulses say 4 or 5, and pull out bemf/recoil after each one too (!) Last thing bill Muller told me is you wouldnt beleive the power you get when you do a cluster of 4 or 5 pulses...
 
OK there is that - also I think that when you do disconnect cap from "source" during that time the bemf/recoil circuit is not connected so you aremt gathering anything during that time and it is also time for spikes to squeak through blow up a diode or swtichg, or maybe cause some lugging to the rotor since they oppose direction of rotor...
 
This is one reaosn you want to use diode-plug circuit where you use single diode into cap A other diode into cap B and cap A discharges to load when cap B fills up...
 
All that said, what I like to do with BEMF/recoil is SWITCH it out - put a 2nd swtich that connects the coil to the "steering diode" or AC leg of FWBR if you are doing it like that....so you can "turn on and off" the recovery circuit.
you will need bidirectional mosfets if you put swtihc on AC side of things coming off coil...
The only time recovery-circuit needs to be ON is right when that motor coil switch turns OFF - that is when everything happens - other time is at that negative spike flipover point at bottom of scope shot (SHORT IT THERE INTO CAPS !...other subject)
 
Anyways if you swtich-out your backemf do the same pulse widht as your motor coil pulse width, and delay it about 5 degrees....put a resistor (6ohm say) across the cap being filled and adjust that delayed timing until you get a good speed up effect (I thnk it wants to work like an electronic ECHO) ...substitute the resistor with a huge DC cap....run 2nd mmotor coil circuit with huge cap....recover eveything off 2nd motor coil circuit too, and run back into 1st motor coil circuit and loop it see if it will run forever eh...

 

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