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Author Topic: Power ratio over one  (Read 75392 times)

Offline handyguy1

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Power ratio over one
« on: January 03, 2008, 03:33:54 PM »
Posted on free_energy


Here are two links to the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HHQzWyLTBI
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUcmYiHF5E


Dear Mr. Krieg:
I am challenging your challenge. My claim: is to have built a working, proof of concept apparatus that clearly shows a power ratio over one. I am specifically stating that the first law of thermodynamics is incorrect. It is possible to get more power out than what was used to produce it. Power out divided by power in = power ratio. This apparatus clearly has a power ratio over (1) one.
Your proposed test protocol is severely flawed on several levels. Let?s do some critical thinking on your expected output requirements. History shows that a marketable apparatus is not made on first attempts, on this type device. The ideas and theories go through constant change, from different people, over time. Reference: http://www.sparkmuseum.com/MOTORS.HTM

?Most sources cite Faraday as developing the first electric motor, in 1821. In fact, it was not until about 1875, that Gramme and Siemens eventually developed modern, efficient motors, after the fundamental principles became better understood.? How many people and years is that? Your requirement is, ?one thousand five hundred watts? right off the bat. This implies fuzzy emotion, not critical thinking. Most certainly, a critical thinker would understand this concept.

?Free Energy? HOOK IT TO ITSELF AND MAKE IT RUN FOR MONTHS, AND DO USEFUL WORK WITH NO ADDITIONAL MEANS OF INPUT (SELF RUNNING).
Your fabricated test protocol is baseless. What exactly are you testing for? How long the bearings last? You dreamed up a ?test?, based on a made up ?word?, for an imaginary ?device? that ?doesn?t exist?.  There is something strange (Woo) about that. Then you have the audacity to strut around proclaiming that no one has taken your test yet. Did you get a peer review on this fabricated test protocol first? Of course you didn?t. It may look reasonable on paper; it may even sound reasonable, but nonetheless faulty thinking. If the apparatus stopped 1 day into the test for unknown reasons, in that one-day span, did the apparatus show an over (1) one power ratio or did it not?(Proof please) By how much either way? (Proof please)  Was the first law of thermodynamics violated or not? (Proof please) Exactly how many experimental devices that you have bad-mouthed, have you personally tested with this protocol, or any protocol? In the real world, one complete cycle is the preferred test duration. Would you explain to me, how  a hundred years ago, measurements were exact enough to base laws on, but in modern times it is too difficult to measure with that same amount of accuracy; Isn?t that the premise of your test?

Please note:  1 watt going into the device from a cell, and two watts simultaneously coming out of the device, is a power ratio over one, even if the input is a cell that diminishes in power output, until the device stops. Hooking the output to the input before understanding the principal is fuzzy emotion. Don?t play the game that a device like this cannot be measured by conventional means. There are smart, competent, engineers, professionals and lay people that are very capable of measuring my claimed device. It does not take special scientists, or equipment. All your nonsense notwithstanding, we are both measuring for the same thing ?power ratio. 

A data recorder is a tried and true method of obtaining instantaneous voltage and amperage values. Voltage is measured at the terminals. Voltage measurements taken across a precision resistor, gives amperage.  The instantaneous values are recorded to disk along with the waveforms. The instantaneous measurement values are opened in Excel. With a few formulas, RMS and average calculations are computed on one cycle, to ascertain the power factor. From there it is a short step calculating the power ratio.  Using this well accepted, accurate, form of measuring, the numbers will speak for themselves. No need to interpret anything that is what RMS is all about. This is a straightforward test procedure that anyone can reproduce (which is of the upmost importance). I am using a Dataq 158UP, four channel Data recorder, and 2W 0.05 Ω Caddock SR20: Precision current sense resistors. Check out the perfect example of the setup at scienceshareware.com.
I have something to put up. It is physical, you can see it, you can touch it, you can make it start and stop, you can adjust it and most importantly you can test it. What exactly do you have to put up? No history lessons or ?we wouldn?t be where we are today? stuff please. If you ?think? about it, all you have is antidotal stuff, peppered with assumed/ postulated/ extrapolated and guessed. You, my friend, do not have any ?proof? whatsoever; to back up the assertions you make about the first law of thermodynamics being 100% accurate and incorruptible. What you have is a bunch of old dusty ideas and call them laws, the arrogance to believe they can never be changed, and, the audacity to criticize, to the point of fanaticism, anyone who dare suggest differently. Have I missed something?

I have read your web pages and your fanaticism on hooking the output to the input is pure fuzzy emotion. Don?t even ask. You?re absolutely right about the water test, no way. Do you know how many variables are involved? How many times did you use the word ?if? in that very short description of the test? The reproduction of the test would be a nightmare.  Seems as though you are ?hung up? on spikes. Not to worry, there isn?t any. Even if there were spikes, with a data recorder there are ways to deal with it. All the bases are covered, my friend.

A cynic is the mirror image of the person they feel compelled to bad-mouth. The cynics deal in fuzzy emotion (?no you can?t?. liar?), their target also deals in fuzzy emotion, ?yes I can, you just don?t understand? (a marriage made in heaven). The few real skeptics say ?just show me something, anything, somebody, anybody,? then proceeds to analyze the something/anything with critical thinking, not fuzzy emotion. Does this make any sense? Are you a ?cynic or a skeptic? A skeptic would jump at the chance to test this working apparatus.

This is open source so there is no problem there. The only thing separating us is your agreement on the data recorder. Oh, the only thing you did get right was the description, ?over 40, long haired, cigarette smoking, garage tinkerer? what are the odds, Good job! I just as soon not spar to long and get to the test; after all, that is where the proof is!
Happy New Year!
David Middleton
Handyguy1@verizon.net
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 12:48:40 AM by hartiberlin »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Power ratio over one
« on: January 03, 2008, 03:33:54 PM »

Offline sypherios

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2008, 09:39:08 PM »
Hi Tinkerer,

 I have a great deal of skeptisizem over the output of your machine.
Is it solid state? Or mechanical?
If your cop is soo good wheres your patent?

 Sincerely Sypherios

Offline handyguy1

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2008, 10:55:45 PM »
Sypherios:
As you should my friend. It is mechanical. I know about patents, I have a few. It would be a waste of my time and resources to go for a patent. This information belongs in the public domain anyways.
What I have done is confront a major cynic. You may have noticed that I am calling for a test, that?s where the proof is.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2008, 10:55:45 PM »
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Offline supersam

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2008, 01:17:43 AM »
@handy man 1,

maybe some pier review, from other people here on this site with replications is in order.  can you post more information about your power device? it sounds interesting!  you have my attention and i am sure others, however at this point i will have to be a little reserved for i havn't seen what you got!  please understand that you are not the first person to make the claim of cop>1, but you can still be the first to show it.  are you working with a theory or an actual device?  it sounds like you actually have something.

lol
sam

Offline handyguy1

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2008, 02:16:03 AM »
Hay Sam:
I have an actual working device. Some people expect the device to power a car or their house. It isn?t going to happen without the input of numerous people over time.
I have been concentrating on the testing and don?t have a lot written up yet. I?ll be happy to give what I have.

Before I get to far, I would like to say that I have spent a year trying to prove myself wrong. I have done extensive cross testing with lamps, LEDs, resistors, etc. I have changed the setup and wires and the measuring devices. There is absolutely no question in my mind that the device works as claimed. After hundreds of tests, it?s very apparent if there are any changes in the outcome. A data recorder is the way to go.

I do have some photos on the free_energy yahoo group. There not very good, I?ll try again soon. The answer has been right under everyone?s noses! I was going for the least and ended up with the most.

The device is powered by a 1.2-volt 500mAh AA battery. Eight differential channels are required for the full test, with four-channel minimum. The input is peak 1+amps, and .9 volts.  The output is peak .1+ amps and up to 60 volts, and operates at 2-10Hz as an approximation range.

A short history: I asked the question, ?what if I eliminated or radically reduced the main heat causing forces in electric motors and generators (Eddy currents, hysteresis, and back emf). Yeah I laughed to; nonetheless, I experimented for 6 months with a coil of Radio Shack wire and hardware store magnets. The results were that I found a way of producing electricity, which was equal in power to a Faraday plunge action, but without the back emf etc... So I ordered wire and rare earth magnets, built the device, and it works!

Of course, there is no free lunch. In this device, the working power is paid for in a half cycle, in the form of just amperage not voltage. The payment half cycle has a power ratio of just under to just over one, which leaves the second half of the cycle with a very large power ratio.
T
here are several other notably odd workings of this apparatus. I do have to say (with no proof) that the excess power is coming from the output coil, not from the void, vacuum, rip in space- time, etc. The reasons for the successes of the device are that the ?forces? are no longer fighting each other, or, have been eliminated. At the most, the forces are bumping into each other rather than opposing each other. Using an almost drained battery shows the highest power ratios. A purely resistive load does not equal a power factor of one, and I cannot find any heat even in the resistors. I know there is supposed to be, but!
I have to use the term power ratio and not efficiency because the workings of the device do not come close to being efficient. It turns out that precision, and mechanical friction are not major issues. 
Go ahead my friend ask questions!
David Middleton

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2008, 02:16:03 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2008, 12:40:15 PM »
Hi David,

Would like to know if you already considered using a DC/DC converter that would accept your output DC voltage  (up to some ten Volts, you wrote up to 60V) and would give out a stabil 1.2V DC at around 1A peak?

I think for instance of such circuits like the second one in this link (though its input is only 12V and its output is set to 1.5V, as shown):  http://ludens.cl/Electron/dcdc/dcdc.html  but there are many other practical circuits that would nicely fulfill your needs to close the loop.  (The 78S40 converter chip accepts up to 40V input and gives output from 1.25V and up, see data sheet here: http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM78S40.pdf
This way you would get rid of the rather problematic output power measurements tasks everyone rightly nags you on and on... The efficiency of such DC/DC converters is generally around 70-85%, in some cases over 90% so you could close the loop?
I have just seen your pictures of your setup at free_energy yahoo group, very interesting coil shapes you made, reminds me of Bedini windows motor of a kind?  Nevertheless, a schematics would be appreciated...

Thanks, 
Gyula

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2008, 11:07:36 PM »
Hi David,
This looks very similar to Mike's motor and those windings look massive.
Are you driving the rotor with the same coils that pickup the output?

Regards
Rob

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2008, 11:07:36 PM »
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Offline supersam

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2008, 02:43:04 AM »
@ handyman 1,

see i told you. you build it, they will come, the EXPERTS, it will do you alot of good to listen to what these guys have to say!!! 

lol
sam

Offline handyguy1

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2008, 02:30:49 PM »
Hay Gyula:
I haven?t even considered any means to have the apparatus self run. In my humble opinion its more important for me to prove that a power ratio over one is possible. This would be the first step. Once that is established, smart guys like you can work on the self running part.

Before I hook it to itself, efficiency has to be addressed. What I?m saying is that the apparatus configuration is in the ballpark. There is no way I can say exactly how big the output coils should be. The larger coil has the best output.  I am using 15ga wire for the driver coil. I suspect a 12ga. Driver coil with less turns would improve the operation. I am using 29 ga. Wire for the Output coil. However, I believe that a thinner ga. would also increase the output.

FYI, The 1.2-volt cell come about by my initial intent of finding out, how much power out I could get from the minimum amount of power input. The apparatus can be run on a greater input and shows the same power ratio.

I am working on a schematic now. Hopefully it will be done it a week or so.
David middleton

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2008, 02:30:49 PM »
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Offline handyguy1

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2008, 06:08:01 PM »
Hay Group:   (sent to free_energy group
The input is coming from a cell, 1.2-volt, 500mAh. The cell runs voltage and amperage through a coil creating an electromagnet. Suspended above the coil is a permanent magnet. When power is sent through the coil the permanent magnet moves. When the power is reversed the permanent magnets reverse. The magnets do not spin 360 degrees. It?s more like 45 degrees each way. The permanent magnets that are suspended above the driver coil is attached to a axle. When the driver coil magnets move the axle moves. Attached to the same axle are a set of magnets suspended over coils. Power is sent through the electromagnet moving the driver magnets, which in turn moves the axle which moves the generator magnets. Simply put, electricity in electricity out. Can?t get any easier than this.

How this relates to urinals and snake oil is beyond me.

The copper colored coil is the driver coil (motor). The driver input is separate from the three output coils (generators). On the larger apparatus, there is one driver coil and two output coils. One half cycle, of one output coil matches the input power. The second half of the cycle is power above and beyond the input power. The second output coil?s output, is completely ?free?. The second apparatus has a driver coil and one output coil. The second apparatus?s driver coil is hooked in parallel with the first driver coil. The second apparatus?s output is also above and beyond the input power.

Individually and as a whole the power ratio is great enough so that even an ?expert? can tell.
Say I do hook it to its self. How long does the device have to run to ?prove? power ratio?s over one?  There is absolutely nothing ?scientific? about that sort of test. An ?expert? should be able to measure the input, output, without such an unscientific test. If someone can tell me how power factor can be calculated from that test I?ll listen.

The objections I pointed out in Eric Krieg?s challenge still stand.

As clearly as I can; I can prove that a power ratio over one is possible. I have no intentions on showing how ?long? the apparatus can run. Proof can be obtained from one complete cycle.

If an ?expert? cannot test with modern test equipment, then the ?expert is not an expert?.
David Middleton

Offline supersam

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2008, 08:38:48 PM »
hey david,

why don't you just make a video of your device running and post it?  why have you not thought about closing the loop?  you say you have done extensive testing for over a year, and yet you have not been concerned at all about the power used to do the testing of a free energy device?  sounds a little strange to me.  let's say i am from missouri, show me!!!!  if it sounds to good to be true it probably is.

lol
sam

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2008, 08:38:48 PM »
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Offline handyguy1

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2008, 11:05:26 PM »
Hay Sam:
I am in the process now. I have just completed the rough draft of the material list, assembly, and operating procedures. I am concerned about you using the term ?free energy?. Ask ten people what ?free energy? is and you will get ten different answers. In my humble opinion, there is no such thing. Nowhere in my writings will you find that term. I don?t use the term ?over unity? either. Again, ask ten people?

First and foremost my goal is to provide proof the first law of thermodynamics is incorrect. Cynics maintain that the only proof is to close the loop. That?s pure ignorance and a slap in the face to the engineers who take voltage measurements every day. I am absolutely amazed that cynics and skeptics alike would accept ?anything? as being absolutely correct. Anyways, I will be posting on the Yahoo OU-builders group first. There, people are willing to walk the walk more so than talk the talk. Know what I mean? I really don?t mind bantering on the subject, but the cynics, ?no you can?t?liar? is really getting old, and completely un-useful. I am fortunate to be alive in this century and not in Galliano?s!

Specifically addressing your question of ?closing the loop?. Sam, lets do some critical thinking together. From the alleged thousands of so-called ?Free energy? devices, what do they have in common? Right, they all hooked the output to the input, and failed miserably. A part of science is understanding failures and not repeating them.

You sound like an intelligent young man. I hope you make an apparatus yourself. This is new physics. Instead of fighting it, please join in.
David Middleton
handyguy1@verizon.net

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2008, 01:00:52 AM »
Hi Handyguy,
I wonder if your device is related to the EBM:
http://www.gammamanager.com/

This seems to have slanted coils or coils offset from the diameter line of the rotor.
I would be interested to see the results of a test run with a fixed load like a lamp (showing current/voltage), and the input current/voltage readings.
You may need to rectify/smooth the output to enable you to get an accurate output result.
It does not look difficult to build this and I am sure a lot of people on this forum would jump at the chance of replicating it.
I have a rotor all setup and ready to go, just need to add the coils + control circuit:

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/DSCN4986.jpg)

Regards
Rob

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2008, 01:04:08 AM »
Hi David,

I basically agree with you on the question of looping i.e. people experience failure.  Why? Because people building such devices ought to possess the gift of the "Jack of all trades" in a positive sense: they ought to be professional electrical, mechanical, chemical and so forth engineers (besides the ability of thinking outside of the box) in order to realize the nature of the extra output, how it could be REGULATED and MATCHED with the lowest loss possible before looping back to the input.

It is even possible that the received output does not come in a form we get used to and handling it in a conventional way invariably leads to failure.

I understand your goal of providing proof  of the first law of thermodynamics being incorrect but then you have to really find a smaller group of people who are willing to find proper means of measuring the output with respect to the input power. You seem to have made this step to find that yahoo group you have hinted at and I hope you will have favorable reception than at free_energy group.  The latter is thoroughly moderated as you may have noticed.
I would still be interested in understanding the principle of your device.

EDIT: You wrote you had eliminated or radically reduced the main heat causing forces like eddy currents hysteresis and back emf.  I know how you did the first two but how you solved the question of back emf that is one of my main questions... Another puzzle is what you also wrote: "A pure resistive load does not equal a power factor of one and I cannot find any heat even in the resistors".  This would mean a different kind of electricity is coming out from your output coil?  I guess the trick maybe is you connect coils in parallel?  Can you say you reduce the effect of Lenz law in the output coil(s) too with the parallel connections? Or with something else... ;)
Thanks
Gyula
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 01:16:34 PM by gyulasun »

Offline handyguy1

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Re: Power ratio over one
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2008, 06:37:44 PM »
Hay Gyula:
How refreshing; It?s oblivious that you have done some critical thinking on this subject! I just posted to ou_builders, and uploaded two videos to you tube. I?d be happy to have you join the ou_builders group.
David Middleton
handyguy1@verizon.net

 

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