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Author Topic: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?  (Read 40236 times)

Offline Mr.Entropy

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2008, 04:49:03 PM »
G'day all,

Perhaps one of you electronics guys can answer this one.

Given the same current, is there a difference in the magnetic field strength between a high impedance electromagnetic coil (say above 1 Kilo-Ohm, many windings with very thin wire) and a low impedance coil (say 100 Ohm, fewer windings, thicker wire)?

Hans von Lieven

Hi Hans,

When you run current through your coil, the energy goes into 2 places -- resisitive heating of the wires, and into the magnetic field.  The energy that heats the wires is lost, but the energy that goes into the magnetic field is not -- if you don't use it to power some device, then the coil gives it back to you when you stop powering it.

In order to make efficient use of your coil, then, you must ensure that only a small portion of the power you put in goes into resistive heating.  You will need to be able to calculated the coil's inductance to determine this.  Your coil is essentially an air core solenoid, and there are many applets on the net that will do that calculation for you.  Assuming an air core might give you an inductance value that is too small, but that's an error on the safe side.

If you're driving the coil with an AC waveform, then ensuring that most of the energy goes into a the magnetic field means ensuring that the inductive reactance is high compared to the DC resistance, since power lost = current^2*resistance, but power stored in the field = current^2*reactance.   The reactance in ohms is 2*pi*f*L, where L is the coil inductance in Henries, and f is the AC frequency in Hz.  Notice that your coil is more efficient when you drive it with a higher frequency, but the mechanical systems you're trying to drive will have a pretty low frequency limit.

If you're driving the coil with DC voltage pulses, then you have to use a different calculation.  It's not a standard formula, so I'll work it out below.  Given your coil inductance L, DC resistance R, and pulse width T seconds:

dI/dt = V/L
so instantaneous current during the pulse is I = Vt/L
instantaneous power in = VI = VVt/L
so average P_in = VVT/2L
instantaneous loss =  I^2 R = RVVtt/LL
so average P_loss = RVVTT/3LL

so average P_loss / P_in = 2RT/3L

Cheers,

Mr. Entropy
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 03:07:18 AM by Mr.Entropy »

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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2008, 06:21:53 PM »
G'day all,

Sad news. 

The motor, as designed DOES NOT WORK !  The results of some tests I did it show clearly that it is not a goer in its present form. I will write my tests up. I just want to issue this warning now already so no-one wastes time and money on a dud.

Back to the drawing board, and haven't we all been there before.  >:(

Hans von Lieven

Offline nightlife

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2008, 07:31:32 PM »
hansvonlieven, did you get any positive results from any of the concept?

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2008, 07:31:32 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2008, 10:51:26 PM »
G?day all,

Well, as they say:  ?The best laid plans of mice and men?.?

As it is the motor is a dud. I should have known! I have no excuse other than getting carried away with what turned out to be a stupid idea

Let me tell you how I found out.

When I published my first test concept I used discrete magnets instead of the horseshoe magnet as specified in the Freischwinger. Post 19, page 2 in this thread.

Tak22 expressed doubts about this. He said: ? I'm still not sure this can be done without a horseshoe style magnet. Can't know for sure until tried I guess.? Post 20, page 2.
I decided to test this. In my tests I used several configurations.

(http://keelytech.com/freischwinger/testconfigurations.jpg)

Here are the seven configurations I tried.
Fig. 1   shows the horseshoe arrangement as in the original Freischwinger.
Fig. 2   shows the use of two discrete magnets in horizontal alignment.
Fig. 3   shows the use of a bar magnet.
Fig. 4   shows the use of two discrete magnets in vertical alignment.
Fig. 5   shows the use of two discrete magnets in vertical alignment with a steel bar.
            connecting the magnets, thus mimicking a horseshoe magnet.
Fig. 6   shows the use of a magnadur magnet. (Magnadur magnets are ceramic
             magnets with their poles on their flat faces).
Fig. 7   shows the use of two magnadur magnets connected with an iron yoke.

In contrast to the Freischwinger the reed did not move inside an air coil. I simply wound the coil directly on the reed itself as I was not interested in the detrimental effects in relation to sound fidelity. All I wanted to test was movement.

This is where it showed up that the motor as designed does not work. In all instances the application of a forward or reverse current sent the reed in the appropriate direction up to the strongest point of attraction, the dreaded ?stick point?. At this point, I erroneously thought, that the application of a reverse current will propel it further. This worked well, but only in one direction, in the direction away from the midpoint!

(http://keelytech.com/freischwinger/reversepolarity.jpg)

This means of course that the horseshoe arrangement in the motor is out. As the reed approaches the magnet there is a counter force which cannot be eliminated with a pulse. Perhaps this could be overcome with inertia from a flywheel, but that is not the idea here. On the other side of the magnet it is an asset, since a pulse applied there aids rotation.

Does that mean the motor is doomed?
Not at all. It just needs a bit of revamping. My tests indicate that this can be done. I will write up my test results and the changes to the design shortly. I just wanted to show now why it does not work as designed before someone tries to build it.

Hans von Lieven




Offline sparks

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2008, 12:31:49 AM »
    Ampere-turns will give you the flux density of the coil. With negligible difference other then resistance losses when smaller gauge wire is used.  I use to rewind electric motors and when in doubt always went to the largest diameter wire we could get in the stator slots to avoid overheating.  AWG to metric diameter wire conversion was always fun.

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2008, 12:31:49 AM »
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Offline Mr.Entropy

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2008, 03:00:29 AM »
... dunno how this post happened ...

Offline nightlife

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2008, 05:50:02 AM »
Did it not go past the strongest point of attraction at all? Wasn't the strongest point at center? I thought it would go just passed center then back unless the polarity was switched when it just passed center, which is a must if you want it to rotate.

 Are you trying to switch the polarity during the first attraction? If so, there is no way that can work. It must be switched at the precise moment it passes the center. Not at center or before.

 I understand that may be hard and or impossible to do with your design because of the switching polarity not being stationary. It would have a much better chance of passing the center if it was stationary.

 There are a few things that I am unclear about with your design. One of them is the timing you have as well as the time length of your pulses.

 Another was the rotation speed. The faster it goes, the more of a G force affect it will have. Even at a slow rotation, you are still going to have a G force factor you will have to compensate for. Was that figured in to it? Based solely on that alone, I would be very hesitant on even trying that design. There are just to many factors involved that would require using more energy to get passed them.

 I am assuming the sound signal worked for creating and switching polarity's, am I right? If they did work, why not use it in design like I posted earlier or even yours but with keeping the cores stationary?

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2008, 05:50:02 AM »
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Offline BEP

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2008, 01:02:26 PM »
@Hans

Before you throw the baby out with the laundry you may wish to consider these...

1. The swinging metal portion should be only slightly ferromagnetic. A high grade of stainless steel or bettter yet, aluminum, should act more like you wish. The aluminum will only react to magnetic fields when it is moving in relationship to a magnetic field or within a mag field that is changing.

2. The metal swing needs to be moving within the excitation coil otherwise it can only represent the coil, not the coil and the equal (and not quite opposite) reaction of becoming ferromagnetic while moving within those two fields.

Remember:
Aluminum is Paramagnetic NOT diamagnetic like copper. As such it has the ability to be temporarily ferromagnetic.
The point between poles of a horseshoe magnet has been proven to provide torsion/spin in association with specialized micro-structures - maybe swinging isn't the only thing goin on and that is the straw that will break the OU back.

Cheers!

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2008, 06:09:36 PM »
@ hansvonlieven
I think we knew the answer to why this motor cannot work, the armature when over the "pole" of a PM becomes polarized in an opposite sense and is thus attracted. We know this because it happens in each and every PM motor we know of. I think Wesley Gary had the answer, the armature cannot leave the magnetic field thus cannot interact with the magnetic poles only the field "between" them. Or the armature can leave the PM field and interact with the field between them but cannot interact with the poles in any way. We should ask ourselves why we keep doing the same things over and over with the expectation of getting different results when there can be none. Here is a question, what would happen if the armature could not be polarized by the PM field in any way? ,if the armature could polarize "itself" but not be polarized by external forces
(the PM poles), in this case there is action without reaction because a reaction can only occur in the PM field and not the armature, the source of the action.

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2008, 06:09:36 PM »
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Offline AhuraMazda

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2008, 06:34:27 PM »
Now that we have all the magnet experts here, I have been thinking that we need a material that behaves as a ferrous material when say a DC current is passed through it or
some kind of additive to iron to make it behave non-ferrous on demand. No one would have thought of non magnetic stainless steel so this idea is not so crazy.
I wish I had paid more attention in my metallurgy classes.

AM

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2008, 07:53:22 PM »
Ok let's start getting tangible results , I think Hans is a hands on guy so if he is willing we will build an OU motor together. Im not going to post my motors, we are going to start very small and get results from square one---- results everyone can understand.
The projects starts here------http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4209.new.html#new

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2008, 07:53:22 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2008, 11:12:48 PM »
You are on allcanadian  ;D

Hans

Offline Thaelin

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2008, 11:26:49 AM »

    http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4209.new.html#new

  Ignore this message as I needed to copy the link so it would work and help the rest out.

thaelin

Offline Charlie_V

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2008, 04:52:37 AM »
I still think that the Freischwinger has some potential.  I'm not taking the route you guys took though, I'm sticking closer to the original concept - changing a few things here and there.  I'll continue to tinker and let you fellows know if I find anything interesting.

Until then,
Charles Van Neste

Offline tao

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Re: Overunity Device using Magnets in the 1920's ?
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2008, 09:28:23 AM »
Hey guys,

I've been doing some thinking along these lines here and there. A rotary setup is surely preferred for many reasons, but I feel there will be many inherent problems with creating a rotary system, mainly because the essence of the Freischwinger has the movable member always in a region very near the equilibrium spot between the two pole pieces of the horseshoe magnet. So, having the soft iron reed leave the equilibrium area might not work and might result in normal motor/generator lenz effects and all that is normal in such rotary setups. Time will tell though, there is certainly still hope in a rotary setup. Mind you, the above were just some basic thoughts I had on the matter of a rotary setup.

Now, I've been doing some thinking along the lines of how we could test this puppy for OU/FE and do so in a manner where we could maximize potential OU/FE and do so with a fairly simple setup.

So, I have come up with a design (its ever changing, but I will present what I have now) that you might want to see. It can be setup relatively simply, it operates like a piston that can go in two directions. It also incorporates a generation action, so that we can directly create electric power and test for OU/FE that way.

Below is the GIF image for the design. Please note that I don't have my usual 3d image or otherwise done yet because I am using an 'eeePC' (google it) and I am not using a mouse with it, so bear with me until I get to a regular computer, hehehe.

Now, to describe the setup, the FOUR magnets you see in the GIF image are what I am calling the equilibrium magnets, there is an iron bar (can be another ferro material), there is also a coil around this iron bar (take note of the coil, it is wrapped around the LENGTH of the iron bar NOT the width) which will cause a magnetic field to be created though the width of the iron bar (NOT through the length as the Freischwinger does).

Now, I have done over 25 FEMM sims on this setup and have figured out how to best operated this device.

Look at the GIF image, where the iron bar is right now, it is in perfect equilibrium. If the iron bar moves even a fraction of an inch up or down, then the iron bar will have on it a force of 2+ Newtons moving in the direction it moved that fraction of an inch.

Not having a picture that describes the whole setup yet, I will cover briefly how it works now. The iron bar will only be allowed to move in a piston fashion, up and down (up and down based on the viewpoint in the GIF image). There will be two springs, one on each side of the iron bar (separated by a non magnetic rod so as to avoid magnetic attraction issues of the springs and the equilibrium magnets). Reaching through the center of the two springs, on either side, there will be another non magnetic rod piece that has a magnet on its end (this magnet will be used for the generation action), and past these end magnets will be pickup coils (two).

I am sincerely sorry if you don't GET what I am describing here, you will just have to wait for the picture I eventually make.

The operation of the device will be as so:
1. The iron bar will be slightly tapped by hand to get the device moving. The iron bar will be pulled VERY strongly into the equilibrium zone of the two magnets it is moving toward. This will cause an output on the pickup coil produced by the end magnet (generation action magnet).
2. the iron bar will keep moving toward the equilibrium zone of the two magnets it is moving toward and it will compress a spring as it gets stopped by a mechanical stop piece (so the iron bar doesn't go too far into the equilibrium zone.
3. At this point the spring is compressed, the iron bar is in the equilibrium zone.
4. The coil around the length of the iron bar will be pulsed electrically and will cause a left-right (based on the viewpoint of the GIF file) magnetization that opposes the orientation of the equilibrium spot between the equilibrium magnets.
5. Based on my FEMM sims, it only takes a small pulse and the iron bar will no longer be pulled into the equilibrium spot of the equilibrium magnets. This pulse causes the iron bar to want to leave the equilibrium spot fairly forcefully and this is also where the spring can kick in and add energy to the 'leaving process' (from the equilibrium magnets).
6. Now the iron bar will move away from the two equilibrium magnets that it was near and will move through the equilibrium point of the FOUR magnets combined and this is where the pulse cuts off and the pull from the OTHER two magnets will occur, FORCEFULLY pulling the iron bar into the equilibrium spot of THOSE two magnets.
7. Again, we have the compression of the spring, the power being output on the other pickup coil and the eventual stopping of the iron bar.
8. Again, another pulse if sent into the coil and the iron bar moves, etc. etc. etc.

So, the iron bar is moving up and down (from the viewpoint of the GIF file) VERY forcefully and only small current pulses into the driving coil are needed to cause the movement of the iron bar between the THREE DIFFERENT EQUILIBRIUM POINTS...

Ok, enough talking, haha, here is the pic.

Better pics, showing the whole setup (generator magnets, non magnetic rods, springs, etc.), will come later when I have time and get to a proper computer.

Peace guys...
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 10:03:36 AM by tao »

 

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