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Author Topic: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation  (Read 53493 times)

Offline Koen1

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Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« on: April 22, 2008, 04:28:53 PM »
Hi all :)

To add to the fun here, I've decided to plonk an old idea of mine down here...
I'm sure others have come up with similar ideas and quite possibly more
extensively worked out. This stuff I'm posting here is far from complete,
it is just a little interpretational depiction on which we may be able to build.

Okay, here's the deal: The Caduceus. A fascinating symbol, originally and
traditionally seen as "staff of Ningishzida" (who was the messenger of the godess Ishtar)
by the Sumerians/Mesopotamians, "the staff of Hermes" by the Greeks, "staff of Mercury"
by the Romans, always carried by the messenger of the gods, and always depicted as
a staff with two serpents coiled around it.
Clearly there is something about this staff that makes it special...

Now from depictions in ancient Egyptian temples and stelas we know they had
electron tubes of some form, quite possibly glow-discharge "lamps".
All of the pictures of these show a pear-shaped glass bulb connected to a cable
on one end and supported by high voltage isolated supports on the other,
and a snake outstretched in its typical wavey style, tail end at the cable
and head towards the hV isolators. It doesn't take much imagination to
recognise this as a spark coming from the cable end and moving to the other end
of the bulb.
So let's assume this is how the Egyptian priests depicted electrical sparks:
as serpents slithering head-first towards the anode from the cathode.
Let's also assume they did not spend their days merely worshipping the
pharaos and building pyramids, and they also spent time tinkering with
inventions, like a sort of stone-age Nikola Tesla wannabes. ;)

Well then, let's take a look at that Caduceus from a more electrodynamic and
less mythological view...
We have some type of central rod, with two coils around it.
Assuming the ancients didn't depict the two coiled snakes in opposition merely
because they had a lousy sense of depth, but because they actually intended
to convey the concept of them being opposed to eachother, let's interpret
that as one "clockwise" wound coil and one "counterclockwise" wound coil,
both coiled around the same rod. For aesthetic reasons as well as more neat
accordance with basic electromagnetic observations, let's assume they
are coiled in such a way that their coil windings cross eachother at exactly
90 degrees, and that all points where the coils overlap are neatly arranged along
a line through the middle of the rod (if you look at it from the side).
I'm sure most of you know how a good Caduceus coil can be wound, and others
can look it up.

The Caduceus symbol has the serpents facing eachother at the top of the coil.
In many old depictions the snakes are shown with their tongues touching,
or they are shown with their tongues touching the top of the rod, or even biting
into the ball on top of the rod.
Continuing the path of reasoning that the snakes head indicates the direction
of electricity flow, we see two opposing coils wound around the same "core",
and both coils only conduct current from the bottom of the "core" rod to the
top of it. Already it is getting more interesting: we now have two coils that
will produce opposite potentials under influence of one main magnetic field.
Could there be something that forces any electromagnetic fluctuations to
produce a current in the same direction?
Well, it just so happens the Egyptians were not stupid, and they knew quite a few
interesting minerals. Taking into account their simple batteries and lamps,
I would say they could have had a level of knowledge comparable to that of the
1900s, as far as electrical science goes. So let's look at some very old
tech that used raw minerals and still worked quite nicely: the cat-whisker diode.
That is basically a chunk of suitable mineral set in a piece of metal on one side,
and on the other side the tip of a piece of wire is pressed against the mineral
surface at the exact right spot. The result is a primitive rectifying diode, and
that was a very common element in radio receivers until the 1950s.
Alright, so let's say the old Egyptian priest/scientists also knew this from
experiments, and used it.
Let's say they actually used "cat-whisker" or in their case more accurately
"serpents-tongue" diodes, where a metal wire tip pressed against a piece of
crystal. It may be considered that perhaps they used a different type of primitive
contact diode which is not necessarily a "cats-whisker" type, hence the few
depictions of the snakes biting into the ball: direct coil-to-crytal connections
could be possible. In any case, the most important suggestion is: they may
have used a diode type connection.

That would turn the setup into a sort of full wave rectifier: the opposing coils
could receive opposing magnetic fields (hence e/m waves), the diode elements
would "force" the current in one direction.
Assuming the central rod is connected at the bottom to the tips of the snakes tails,
the current would always flow from the top of the rod to the bottom...

So far for the coils.
Now the central rod could be made of iron, which would make it a good magnetic "core",
and would also make it conductive.
There are quite some possible variations here. Some Caduceus depictions show an Ankh
type symbol with the two snakes around it. Could be a form of aerial/antenna. Some show
a circle on top of the staff, again, could be a loop antenna. And some show just a rod with
a ball on the top, but the rod is sometimes clearly longer than the coiled snakes are.
Could be a simple rod antenna. Perhaps there is something more going on,
as I have tried to indicate in the picture below.
If you look at crystal radio circuits that are said to be a remarkable lot more efficient than
slightly more simple crystal sets, they most often have two coils: a large and a small coil.
In most of those I know, the small coil is wired to the aerial and the ground, and the larger
coil is connected to the actual diode and rest of the circuit. Small coil has less windings,
large coil has more.
Now look at the Caduceus rod sticking out from the coils...
If that's a ferromagnetic rod, it is in a way a sort of zero-windings coil...
That could mean the rod is the smaller antenna coil, and the coils are the
larger circuit coils... ;)

Alright, there's still quite a few bits not accounted for...
for one, if this really is an abstract depiction of some electromagnetic
radio-like device, we would expect to see a capacitor in the circuit.
Clearly there is no capacitor... Or is there?
It has been claimed that "bifilar" and "caduceus" coils don't need
a capacitor to function in a radio circuit. I do not know if this is actually true.
If anyone has first hand info about this I'd like to hear it. :)
If it is true, then that's it, we have a weird form of portable radio antenna
plus collector circuit. ;D

There's more possibilities of course... I mean, according to some
people the Egyptians used odd metal tubes filled with various
materials for unknown magic purposes. And some of those rods have
actually been found in tombs. Typical examples are apparently
copper and zinc rods with filling of carbon, magnetite, quartz, etc.
Now I don't know what you guys think when you hear "zinc tube
filled with carbon", but I hear "simple alkaline battery"... ;)
And what would happen if the central rod were filled with magnetite?
What would happen if the rod were moved around?

Could it be that the Caduceus staff could generate a relatively strong
electric charge by simply moving the staff itself around, so that
the coils would experience a moving magnetic field and current
would be induced?
Or perhaps it is even more freaky, and perhaps this is the radio circuitry
that only needed a speaker of some kind (electrostatically stimulated
drum perhaps? with a golden fleece? Omg now it's really getting freaky ;D)...

Well, there's the start of the idea.
If you like it, please think about it a bit and maybe you can come up with
even more funky options ;)

I will attach a pic below in which I have attempted to convey part of this
interpretation. I admit it could be clearer. ;)

For those interested, here's a few urls for info on:
- those weird Egyptian rod thingys http://www.rodsofra.com/what_are.htm
- more on the rods, bagdad battery, etc http://www.rodsofra.com/faq.htm
(note: the above site tries to sell such rods but once you've read the description you can simply make them)
- crystal radios 1) http://www.clarion.org.au/crystalset/mystery.html, 2) http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/radio/ten_minute_radio.html,
3) http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.arar93.dsl.pipex.com/mds975/Images/mk484_circuit.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.arar93.dsl.pipex.com/mds975/Content/trfradios.html&h=86&w=136&sz=18&tbnid=p6b0Of_EXo4J:&tbnh=86&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcircuit%2Bdiagram&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=3
Of course there's lots more info out there, these are just the ones I used to quickly slam together the
attached drawing.

Kind regards,
hope some interesting replies follow. :D

Koen

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Offline Feynman

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2008, 12:14:32 AM »
Koen, cool idea.  Have you seen this?

http://jnaudin.free.fr/spgen/index.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/spgen/spg_shield.htm

(http://jnaudin.free.fr/spgen/images/spgenshld.jpg)

(http://jnaudin.free.fr/spgen/images/solishield.gif)

(http://jnaudin.free.fr/spgen/images/scalwvt.jpg)

(http://jnaudin.free.fr/spgen/images/scalxmtr.gif)

(http://jnaudin.free.fr/spgen/images/spgenv1.jpg)

Offline jeanna

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2008, 01:11:07 AM »
Cool Koen1,

Kinda sounds like the Stubblefield "battery" doesn't it? Even to the globe on the top which I, at least, am convinced is the capacitor of the circuit.

I know you have watched that thread a bit. Were you aware that we are wrapping the coils like this? They are not separate at the bottom and the tails are at the top with their heads, but by wrapping down then continuing to wrap in what seems to be the same way but coming back up we have this configuration that also resembles a double helix.

 And if you touch the central rod with one of the coils, the voltage goes down very fast?

And the top of the coil is the south end of the magnet.

woah Koen this is cool.

jeanna

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2008, 01:11:07 AM »
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Offline Koen1

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2008, 03:45:06 PM »
@Feynman: Yeah, of course I know that one! :D
Naudins site has been one of my vavorites for years, and the scalar transmitter
is one of the most funky devices on it. After all, it does what shouldn't be possible:
it sends electromagnetic waves straight through a faraday cage! :)
Caduceus coils have long been suggested to be related to scalar/torsion/twistor/spinor
waves and fields. This is one of the few actual well documented and tested devices
using such an effect though, as far as I know.
It is possible that the caduceus circuit I suggested works as a scalar tansceiver,
a scalar crystal radio so to speak. ;)
If you have any other ideas on this you're very welcome to post them, of course.
Who knows, we might just crack this ancient tech. ;)

@Jeanna:
Kinda sounds like the Stubblefield "battery" doesn't it? Even to the globe on the top which I, at least, am convinced is the capacitor of the circuit.

I know you have watched that thread a bit. Were you aware that we are wrapping the coils like this? They are not separate at the bottom and the tails are at the top with their heads, but by wrapping down then continuing to wrap in what seems to be the same way but coming back up we have this configuration that also resembles a double helix.
Hi Jeanna :)
Thanks! intersting idea eh? ;)

To be honest I hadn't really spotted the similarities with Stubblefield yet... interesting...
Now I have only off and on been keeping an eye on the earth battery thread, but from what I recall it breaks down like this:
- (soft) iron core, in most cases a big bolt
- bifilar wound coil, one wire bare iron, the other cotton isolated copper, this duo coil acting as primary and producing
a galvanic DC current, the main output source
- secondary coil normally wound of a single wire of isolated copper, used as "trigger" coil to activate the "battery"
And I am unclear on the use of water; in Stubblefields original patent and texts it is described how the "battery" is
submerged in water, in others it must be buried in wet ground... and I have also read statements that he packed
some of his "batteries" in clay or ceramic or just a plant pot filled with earth...

But what you're saying now is that the primaries are also wound caduceus style? I completely missed that part...
Are the bare iron wire and semi-isolated copper wire still wound 'bifilar' as in right next to eachother?
So we have the iron wire and the copper wire right next to eachother, and then coiled up like a caduceus,
wound clockwise from top to bottom and then back up from bottom to top counterclockwise, both of them?

The seperation of the clockwise and counterclockwise coils was my doing, as it seems to be much more
along the lines of the coiled serpents in the depictions.
In general, caduceus coils as they have been used and referred to by OU and other reserachers are wound
from one single wire so that the leads are both at either top or bottom of the coil, and the one half of
the coil is in opposition to the other half.
Seperating the two was inspired by the snake pictures, and it occurred to me that such a setup might
have rectifying characteristics... But there are other possibilities of course.
Just to name one: if the "snake heads" are not connected to the top of the rod via actual diode-like
connections, but rather positioned a small distance from the top of the rod, and there is indeed a
ball atop the rod, it is conceivable that the "snake heads" and ball act as spherical capacitors.
If the caduceus can receive/intercept so-called "longtitudional waves", "scalar waves", "non-
Hertzian waves", it is remotely possible that current is induced in this "scalar coil", in both
"serpents" at the same time, and that could cause a charge buildup in the capacitors and
even result in sparks between the rod and the coils... Well, of course that's mostly wild speculation,
;) but it is possible...

Oh, as for my previous remark that capacitance in radio circuits has been claimed
using a bifilar coil instead of a capacitor, here's what Wikipedia says:
Quote from: Wikipedia
An early example of the bifilar coil can be seen in Nikola Tesla's United States patent 512,340 of 1894. Tesla explains that in some applications (which he does not specify) the self-inductance of a conventional coil is undesired and has to be neutralised by adding external capacitors. The bifilar coil in this configuration has increased self-capacitance, thereby saving the cost of the capacitors. It is notable that this is not the kind of bifilar winding used in non-inductive wirewound resistors where the windings are wired anti-series to null out self-inductance.
(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifilar_coil)
Now that seems to imply that, if properly used, bifilar coils can eliminate the need for a capacitor in a circuit...
It's a pity that the exact type of coil winding is not indicated. Could be anything really, what with the enormous number
of coil designs and applications Tesla described...
But if a caduceus, either "normal" series connected (the one wire type, effectively the opposite coils connected in series),
or "seperated" parallel connected (the opposite coils connected in parallel), can indeed perform both the functions
of a capacitor and of induction coils, then the crystal radio interpretation has gained some realism ;)

After some more digging I really can't find an exact description of a specific kind of coil, but in Tesla's bifilar pancake coil
patent he does indicate the main difference between his bifilar coil design which cancels coil capacitance and eliminates
the need for seperate capacitors (to counter the coil capacitance only), and the less spectacular "normal" bifilar
coils that were already known; it seems the coil he's talking about consisted of two coils, both wound in the same
direction with the wires next to eachother, coil A connected with its "back end" to coil B's "front end", in other words,
connected in series. So that's parallel wound, connected in series.
The "normal" caduceus coil arrangement is oppositely wound and connected in series,
and the version I suggested is oppositely wound and connected in parallel...
Ok, that doesn't help one bit. ;)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 04:30:49 PM by Koen1 »

Offline jeanna

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2008, 08:51:39 PM »

But what you're saying now is that the primaries are also wound caduceus style? I completely missed that part...

You would have to have made 12 or so of them to get this  ;) . actually the cadeusus as drawn shows the opposite of what you described. I was replying to your verbal description. As I said you should make one to have it in your hands to see the twist that occurs when it is coming back up. The naudin scheme appears the same as the stubblefield (NS) in its windings of down then continuing back up. (a faraday blaster mmm)

If you wind down and then without reversing anything you wind back up you are getting a reversal. If you wind down then reverse and wind back up you are reversing the reversal. It is a head spinner. too   ;D

I am so glad you have brought this up. As I am sure you know, DNA is a double strand and each strand is connected to the other and so it is like one layer of a bifilar wind. Now, all proteins and DNA wrap back onto themselves many times producing manyfold wraps of this bifilar stuff. and of course it is all electromagnetic, too- chemically produced electrical impulses.  ooo i love this!


Quote
So we have the iron wire and the copper wire right next to eachother, and then coiled up like a caduceus,

yes

Quote
wound clockwise from top to bottom and then back up from bottom to top counterclockwise, both of them?

yes, as I mentioned the continuance of the coil makes the direction reverse.


Quote
Seperating the two was inspired by the snake pictures, and it occurred to me that such a setup might
have rectifying characteristics

I guess I have a few more coils to wind.  ;D
The snake pix are too ancient to have been changed by ancient disinfo. or are they? That activity has surely been going on for a long time. I will think about this (probably a lot  ;) ) I have been taught at the school of ancient wisdom that the cadeusus does indeed represent DNA and I have wondered why the snakes were separate because the winding of the snakes is not like DNA. I just forgot to think about it more. I will now.

Quote
... But there are other possibilities of course.
 wild speculation,
;) but it is possible...

It is the only way to break out. Keep it coming. It is a good ride if nothing else.

Quote
(the opposite coils connected in parallel), can indeed perform both the functions
of a capacitor and of induction coils, then the crystal radio interpretation has gained some realism ;)


When we started to wind the NS battery coils, several people stepped forward and said this is what was happening. (ie simultaneously a galvanic and a capacitance reaction) I trust their greater experience ( I still have trouble with it but I have less experience  8) ) To my mind it is a lot easier to see the induction coil as simultaneously a capacitor. Of course the NS coils are only briefly connected. We are still working on this.

lots to think about.
Thanks Koen and Feynman,

jeanna

P.S.
Quote
a galvanic DC current, the main output source

mmmmm probably not output source just a little juice to start things off.

Quote
- secondary coil normally wound of a single wire of isolated copper, used as "trigger" coil to activate the "battery"

maybe, but probably the main output.

Quote
And I am unclear on the use of water; in Stubblefields original patent

The inner bolt and primary bifilar coils are to be moist. They actually work better moist rather than submerged.
It is likely that there is a play between galvanic reax and electrolysis. one gumming the other cleaning.
we are still at it but it looks good.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 07:25:36 AM by jeanna »

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2008, 08:51:39 PM »
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Offline konduct

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2008, 08:31:08 PM »
My two cents. It's  thought that the snakes are the most ancient known icon for science used by the ancients. Not saying that they couldn't represent coils...the DNA reference is particularly strong. Also something to look into is the Rod of Ptah.  This is thought to be how they transported heavy pyramid stones as well as be the same rod Moses used to part the Red Sea. More info here... http://www.crystalinks.com/ptah.html

Offline PYRODIN123321

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2008, 11:06:56 PM »
HEY Koen1! I thought the same thing when i saw the ancient caduceus, but i thought it might be a for flying because of the wings in almost all of the depictions.I found this with a google image search, its sumerian.


got this off another site

Ningishzida Rising
 

From a very poor rendition of a relief impression of the royal libation cup of King Gudea of Lagash (Sumer), ca 2000 BC, depicting Ningishzida (also Ningishzidda and assorted other spellings) in its twin serpent form, precursor to the Caduceus of Hermes. Sometimes depicted as male and sometimes female gender, Ningishzida has profound significance for hermetic alchemists in specific, since according to legend, Ningishzidda was the first genetic alchemist to have appeared among the pantheon of the gods and it was his/her skill at this particular science that made it possible for the human race to evolve into what it is today, i.e., part hominid, part god, as the story goes.

 

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2008, 11:06:56 PM »
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Offline PYRODIN123321

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2008, 11:16:26 PM »
(http://www.abrahadabra.com/images/ningishzida01.jpg)

Offline Koen1

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 11:56:51 AM »
@Konduct: :) Good that you bring that up. Indeed, there is a sideline to the Caduceus
that involves Moses; according to certain allegedly Rabbinistic traditional stories,
the staff of Moses was actually an ancient staff that can be traced back through
Joseph, through Seth, to Adam, who received it from God personally. The story
as I read it goes that Joseph's  inheritance in Egypt was at some point confiscated
by the Egyptian nobles and high priests, and Jethro was one of these who acquired
the staff. Upon returning home in southern Egypt, Jethro planted this magical staff
in the ground where it stood for years, attracting lightning strikes and slaying those
who dared to come close with magical fire. When Moses, who according to both
the old testament/torah and the rabbinistic tradition had been "educated in all
of the wisdom of Egypt" (including metallurgy and their version of physics), came
to visit his father-in-law-to-be Jethro, he was told of the dangers of this magic staff,
and despite the warnings went to collect the staff anyway. Somehow he managed to
pull the staff from the ground without getting smitten, and Jethro expressed his great
respect for Moses' knowledge of magic. Ever since, Moses carried the staff.
Interesting related factoid: the Egyptian metallurgical center was in the south
of Egypt, and the scientists and metallurgist working there belonged to the priest
cast, as science was conducted by the priests in those days. Jethro was the high priest
of this temple complex, which incidentally was located partly on a mointain and
had foundries that probably produced lots of smoke... Burning bush on the mointain?
Yes, burning lots of wood actually, but not a selfcombusting talking bush... ;)
Also interesting: "Moses" (in variations) was also a term used in Egypt for "wise man",
"scientist", "skilled in the art", "knowledgable" among the priest and educated classes,
and the term "the Lord" or "Lord" was also used for the pharao or any other person of
high esteem and authority, in a quite similar way as the term "lord" was used for nobility
in Europe later. Many references to "the Lord" in exodus may not actually be meant as
"God", but rather as references to some very esteemed, noble, educated person of
authority. So when, according to Exodus, Moses has just left Egypt and has just entered
the Sinai, and his father-in-law Jethro comes to visit and speak with him, is it truly
a coincidence that right after this visit, Moses goes up onto a mountain which is
covered in clouds of smoke, to speak with "the lord" residing on the mountain?
Or did he simply climb up to the main office of Jethro, Lord of the materials science department,
located in the metallurgical complex on the mountain?
In that light, it is a lot less surprising that he comes down the mountain with exact
schematics for a large box capacitor with slidable antenna poles, and exact descriptions
of the electrostatic harness and isolating clothing the priests need to wear near it
in order to not get smitten by divine fire...
Now this also gives a twist to the entire story of Moses and his staff writhign on the ground
like a snake; The exodus story tells of him visiting the pharao and throwing his staff on the
ground, where it writhed like a snake, which severely impressed all present until the pharaos
"magicians" managed to do the same trick. If we may consider the snake to be symbolic
of an electrical spark, then perhaps this story is a dramatisation and bastardisation of
something that people simply did not understand as they did not know electricity:
imagine a man educated in these "cutting edge" sciences like electrodynamics,
allbeit on a level comparative to that of ours in the 1900s, who has a special device
mounted on a staff that can generate electrical discharges. Imagine nobody except
a bunch of priest/scientists has this knowledge, and the main authority in the field
is the mans father-in-law, possibly even his teacher/professor. In this setting, such
knowledge and especially its practical application was considered "magic" that the
priests could perform for the greater glory of Amon/Ra, whose human representative
on earth was the pharao. Now this man goes to the pharao, makes some demands,
and threatens to use his magic is the pharao doesn't comply. To put some pressure
on the situation he demonstrates a feat of strong magic: he makes his staff-mounted
device produce a sustained spark that writhes like a snake: a magic snake that sprouts
from the "copper" staff, which turns back into a "simple" staff when the man chooses
to pick it up again. Try to explain Tesla-coil-like sustained and clearly visible sparks
to a person who has no knowledge of electricity and has never seen a Tesla coil,
and let this person try to convey this story, see what it has turned into when it
reaches the 10th person; I would not at all be surprised if the story has turned into
the story of a magician who can produce "holy fire" and "magic snakes of fire"...
I can just imagine this Moses guy tapping the stone floor with the tip of his staff,
which just happens to be some sort of high voltage generating device, and having
sparks 'lick' the floor...

Well, anyway, so there's quite some interesting stories that tie together here, it seems.

Now to reverse engineer this ancient tech. ;D

I was just thinking, who's got some experience with building Tesla coils?
Does anyone know of Caduceus coils used in Tesla coil setups?
I do know that many (most?) Tesla coils use the "pancake coil",
which is almost always a bifilar wound coil like Tesla described in his
bifilar coil patent...
Now a Caduceus is a sort of bifilar coil, just coiled in a solenoid instead of
a flat spiral, and the two "sub-coils" wired slightly differently...

But my new wild thought was: what if instead of using a pancake coil
to excite a solenoid-type coil-and-electrode, we use a solenoid-type
caduceus to excite an electrode? Could we "twist" and "re-shape" the
fields in such a way that we don't use a pancake coil, but still get
a very similar high voltage generation effect? ???

In that respect, let's imagine we're not using the "cat-whisker" crystal
diodes at all, let's just assume the serpent heads are copper balls
at the ends of two oppositely wound copper coils, and the central rod
is still another type of conductor, with another ball connected to its top.
That way we'd have a set of spherical capacitors, and electrostatic induction
between these could influence and/or generate charge movement in the
coils...
This again needs to be worked out in greater detail, but I'm hoping it
is possible to make this into a self-stimulating system where charges
build up in the metal balls, and finally discharge in a couple of nice sparks,
and continues to recharge and spark.
Like I said: similar to a Tesla coil, but different in design (and slightly different in function).

Any input here is greatly appreciated. :D

@Pyrodin: Yep, that's what I was talking about when I mentioned
Quote
"staff of Ningishzida" (who was the messenger of the godess Ishtar)
by the Sumerians/Mesopotamians
.
Interestingly, some Celtic caduceus version have been found as well, and these either look
like the Ningishzida style (elongated quasi-rectangular coiled serpents, with or without central
rod), or like the Ourobouros (one or two snakes biting its/eachothers tail(s)).

Also, some Caduceus depictions, like this Ningishzida version, appear to show two
serpents coiled in the same direction. This may be an interesting variation to look at;
after all, "normal" coils are quite well known and should be easier to analyse.
So if we consider them as two coils wound in the same direction, and the central
rod as an iron core, we have a simple oscillator...  But if the bottom of both coils
is connected to the bottom of the core, and the coil "heads" are not connected to
the top of the rod, then what would happen? It is possible that some oscillation
may occur if spherical capacitors were used...
Somehow this seems much less exotic and less interesting than a true
"opposing coils" caduceus version...

Anyone for reactions/input on that line of thought? ;)

thanks & regards,
Koen


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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 11:56:51 AM »
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Offline PYRODIN123321

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 05:14:01 PM »
From another site, says its celtic, but who knows where it came from originaly

-just a thought

the lighter snake looks like it could be a coil itself-a coil wound around a coil- that would be a hard one to think about.

What happens when a regular coil is wound into a coil and then charged?
what happens when a magnetic field is spirialed?
-not to mention a caduceus coil
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 05:56:51 PM by PYRODIN123321 »

Offline jeanna

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 05:44:55 PM »
Nice pics Pyrodin.
This last one has a lot of extra symbolism.mmmmm
The earlier ones clearly show a Stubblefield format with the bottoms connected.

OK Koen, I am really liking what you are bringing up.
Quote
...Caduceus coils used in Tesla coil setups?
... "pancake coil",
which is almost always a bifilar wound coil like Tesla described in his
bifilar coil patent...
Now a Caduceus is a sort of bifilar coil, just coiled in a solenoid instead of
a flat spiral, and the two "sub-coils" wired slightly differently...

... let's just assume the serpent heads are copper balls
at the ends of two oppositely wound copper coils, and the central rod
is still another type of conductor,

 with another ball connected to its top.


That way we'd have a set of spherical capacitors, and electrostatic induction
between these could influence and/or generate charge movement in the
coils...

This again needs to be worked out in greater detail,
but I'm hoping it
is possible to make this into a self-stimulating system where charges
build up in the metal balls, and finally discharge in a couple of nice sparks,
and continues to recharge and spark.
Like I said: similar to a Tesla coil, but different in design (and slightly different in function).
exactly. similar to Tesla but different.
Stubblefield coil battery, similar in design
he even called it a self generating electromagnet

Look at the spheres. I have been maintaing over at the EB and now Stubblefield threads that these spheres are capacitors.

Please read the patent 600457

A magnetic core (the staff)
Surrounded by the bifilar cu fe wires with both heads and tails at the top. (snakes with tongues out)
Sphere right on top hiding the wires that are doing something we cannot see.
hemisphere on bottom open toward the earth
All this is wrapped in a secondary.
Kinda like Tesla eh? .....

here is a pic from the other thread

jeanna

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 05:44:55 PM »
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Offline Koen1

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2008, 03:20:34 PM »
@Pyrodin: Hehe :D nice to see you came up with that as well!
Indeed, this is something I considered quite quickly.
I just decided to think and work through the variations of a "simple"
caduceus coil first, as there are quite a few.
But very funny to see that you posted that pic of a coiled coil
at just about the same time I had just finished drawing out all
variations of a caduceus with what I now believe is a possible
practical variation of a Tesla coil, and all included coiled coils. :D

I don't have much time now so I'll draw it out later and post it,
but basically it comes down to this:
- we take a wire and wind it into a normal coil (coil1)
- we take coil1 and use it as a wire to wind another coil (coil2)
- we wind coil2 as a caduceus coil
Coil1 has electricity spiral around a central magnetic flux "line".
Coil2 has magnetism spiral around a central electric "flux line".
If such an electric "flux line" is coiled caduceus style and generates
a magnetic pole (or two), a similarly caduceus coiled magnetic
"flux line" should generate an electrical pole.
Now the trick is: if the coil1 is wound in the right way, the
current induced by the coil2 in the core can be fed from the
core into the coil1 windings to create opposite charges on the
coil1 wire in respect to the core. Result: core becomes oppositely
charged to the coil1 wire, any charge movement in the core stimulates
charge movement in the coil1 and vice versa, always in such a way to
increase charge seperation.
Oh, mind you: this again is with the core connected to the bottom "tail end"
of the caduceus electrically, so charges from the core can actually flow
into the coils.
Another variation with very similar (if not identical) outcome would be
to wind two coil1's, a coil1A and coil1B which are oppositely wound,
and used to wind two identically wound coil2's much like a "normal"
bifilar coil, and both coil2's again connected to the core at the bottom...
Interesting, the two different shades of snake in the Celtic caduceus could
be interpreted as oppositely wound coils... ;)

Great minds think alike ;)

@Jeanna: Yes, the capacitor thing...
Have given it some more thought, and I think it may play a large role here.
More so than a diode function which I hypothesised at the start of this thread.
I still think a cousin of the diode effect may still play a small role, but that is
not terribly significant at this point.
I am now inclinded to think the central rod and the caduceus are two 'plates'
of a 'cylindrical capacitor', and the 2 "snake heads" and the rods spherical top
are a form of 'spherical capacitor'...
In my mind it is starting to look more and more like a slighlty twisted version
of a Tesla coil :)
What we really need is a Tesla coil fanatic who has built a few different versions,
and can perhaps give us some hands-on experience input on how similar this
"twisted" TC really is to the variations he's familiar with...
Well, ok, we don't really need one, but it would be nice to get some input from
that end... ;)

Another thought: the central rod need not necessarily be solid;
it could well be a cylinder (wrapped around the wooden staff).
Electrostatically that would still work as far as the capacitor effects are concerned,
and it might even have a positive effect electrodynamically (as current through
a cylindircal conductor tends to spiral around the cylinder a little bit, which
might cause a sort of natural coil-like effects, and possibly hook into the
surrounding coil fields better).

Amazing how much you can come up with from such a symbol... :D

Offline jeanna

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2008, 06:02:38 AM »
(http://www.abrahadabra.com/images/ningishzida01.jpg)
OK folks, are you ready? yes you are. This is wild and crazy.

look at those leopards. no, they are not leopards they are the secondary. you can see cut through the way you would show a secondary in a patent. And then look at the hats on their heads. Is that 2 wires sticking up out of the top?

hmmm  ;)
The hats actually look like those globes atop the NS battery and look down the neck, is there more snake like skin wrapping around the necks? So is that more wire?

so, maybe it is 2 secondarys kind of like the 2 secondarys used for a coil gun or in the circuit of the camera flash. oooooo

I need to take my NS battery drawing back to photoshop to finish a drawing of the stubblefield battery and you will be the first to see it.

thank you,

jeanna

Offline Koen1

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2008, 03:31:15 PM »
Yeah, nice one Jeanna!  8)

Indeed, we can interpret the two Griffins as secondaries.
(They look like Griffins to me: mosaic hybrids of a lion/feline body
with birds wings and talons, and it looks like the heads may even
be serpent heads. Generally an ancient symbol for a divine/supernatural
power, traditionally considered related to the serpent-, dragon-, and
even unicorn-symbolism which stands for royalty and the divine. The
hats look remarkably similar to traditional priests' hats, very similar
to those still worn in the coptic church. See the links? ;))

If we take the central rod to represent a core of iron or a ferromagnetic material,
and the caduceus as a "normal" wire-wound caduceus around that,
the griffins on the sides could be two oppositely wound secondary coils,
of which the current flows in one direction only (the two swords pointed down)...

There are so many possible interpretations and also many possible variations
for circuits that could be meant...
For example, if we only look at the caduceus as two oppositely wound coils,
assume they are connected to the core rod at the "tail end", and the end leads
of both coil and rod at the top all have a ball on them, a flux along the length of the
rod would induce current so that one of the coil balls gains a positive and the other
gains a negative charge, while the central rod ball experiences an internal charge
shift due to electrostatic induction from the coil balls. When the flux disappears,
the charges built up in the balls will want to discharge through the conductors,
but the reversed charge flow will generate an opposing flux in the rod, and this will
stimulate charge flow in the other direction, thereby possibly giving the charge
flow and extra "push", quite possibly resulting in a total reversal of charges on the
spherical capacitors. In this way, it could act like a simple oscillator circuit.
However, the central rod will also "see" this charge switch and will also experience
an internal charge shift. This may or may not result in a magnetic pulse, which
could just give the charge flow in the coils an extra "push".
Then, of course, there's the capacitor effect, which might keep all the charge from
moving to the other coil ball, and could keep some amount of charge on the balls.
This would mean there is some charge flow, but some charges remain on the balls.
It might even cause only one of the two coils to "react" to a magnetic flux change,
alternately adding charge to either of the spherical capacitors, thereby building
up negative charge on the coils and building up positive charge on the rod sphere,
much like a sort of two-stroke electron pump... (although I do admit this seems unlikely
in this specific configuration. Other configurations seem to be more suitable for this.)

Another element that I feel may be of importance here is the possibility of spark
discharges. Imagine the charges on the balls building up to the point where they can
discharge through the air. Imagine that a spark jumps from or between one or both of the
coil balls to the rod ball. Not only wil this result in a very short and fast movement of the
electron gas in the conductors, which can rsult in a magnetic field and/or initial charge
movement, but the spark itself will generate an electromagnetic pulse which can be
"felt" by the coils and might result in increased charge flow. Another possible extra "push".
And let's not forget that Tesla was very excited about spark discharges, even claimed that
spark discharges are important in harnessing the radiant energy sea... I seem to recall
Tesla papers where he describes how a spark discharge generates a high potential spike
that can be captured and used, and I believe he even suggested this to have something to do
with his 'longtitudional waves', but I'm not sure. In any case, the main thing is that a spark
might cause very interesting effects that could increase the active energy flows in the system.

Now that's just one version. A variation on that is to use a cylindrical 'core'.
Another variation is to not connect the caduceus to the rod at all, and yet another
to do this with or without (multiple) secondary(s).
Another is to use "second degree" coils, so a basic coil used as the wire and coiled up
again. And here again we can make variations that have the caduceus bottom end connected
to the rod or not, use either a rod or a cylinder, and have the charges oscillate from one coil
end to the other, or merely between top and bottom of the coils; opposite charges form on
the rod ball and coil balls, and even sparks jump there.

And then there is the interesting factoid that a caduceus where the windings cross at
exactly 90 degrees is a weird little bugger anyway: a perfect electromagnet coil is a
circular current path, where the plane of rotation is at precisely 90 degrees to the
magnetic field generated in its core (and around it as the Heaviside component).
A perfect current is a linear current path where the line is at precisely 90 degrees to the
circular magnetic field around it.
A coil where the windings are at precisely 45 degrees is exactly in between those two:
it "sees" both a circular current path and a circular flux path at 45 degrees, and it "sees"
a linear flux path and linear current path at 45 degrees as well.
Two of these intersecting at 90 degrees at every winding can "see" both a linear and
a circular path, both of flux and of current.
This is totally different from any normal coil and also totally different from a normal current.
It is very well possible that such a coil can be used as a "second degree coil" (coiled coil),
as well as a normal coil. This depends on the exact interaction between the two oppositely
wound coil halves and the input they receive; if it is possible to feed the two halves different
signals, various kinds of field geometries can be created and received.
Perhaps this is what the two Griffins represent: the possibility for the two halves of the
caduceus to act independantly instead of as one single caduceus, thereby allowing
for a huge range of possible effects...

All of these elements can be combined in different ways to form at least half a dozen
variations that might be interesting to test.

Can't wait to see your drawing, Jeanna. :D

Offline PYRODIN123321

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Re: Wild & crazy Caduceus Coil interpretation
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2008, 06:11:16 PM »
WOW.. I cant wait to see where this goes...the leopards really do look like a cutaway of a coil !!! :o ;D

 

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