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Author Topic: Bob Boyce Hex Controller  (Read 68961 times)

Offline gmeast

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2012, 06:59:19 PM »

Hey Greg,


I am eagerly watching your videos now. I am very interested in that project. Can you share some of the info Bob gave you?


Many thanks,


Fausto.


Hi Plengo,


Thanks.  Some of the information Bob has shared with me I have agreed NOT to discuss in open forum.


watkykjy1's videos did raise some question:  In a single battery charging setup, 2 chokes are required ... one on the regeneration circuit (FET diodes to battery) and one between battery + and Toroid Primary common.  His videos don't show the B+ choke but it is part of controlling the flow of longitudinal energy (LME).  Both chokes are part of that control and so some tuning is implied, but he gave me no specifics other than info' found on (the most up-to-date version of) the D9.pdf ... get that at HydrogenGarage.com.


Also, the spikes you see on watkykjy1 's scope are NOT LME, and, in fact, the spikes returned to the battery are not enough (alone) to cover the energy consumed or lost by the controller and Toroid.   The spikes are added to the regeneration 'mix' and returned to the battery instead of clamping (wasting) them to ground.  It's the LME that does the charging.


He did tell me that better performance may be achieved with a 2-battery 'swap' approach.  This is because the choke in the regeneration circuit reduces the LME to the battery (in a single battery setup).  In a 2-battery setup, that choke is not needed (he says).  This confuses me a little in that I thought that choke was required to block EM Interference but allow LME to pass to the battery being charged but that may apply (specifically) to a single battery setup.  I never got this cleared up.  But he also told me the charging performance could be compromised (1-battery setup) if the battery is too big or is compromised in some way ... losses due to sulfation or has too much internal resistance, oxidation, etc.  So that means use 2, smaller, known-good batteries for a 2-battery config. 


Personally I don't like the 2-battery setup.  The 1-battery setup is the "Holy Grail" in my opinion.


He also said NOT to hook any electronic equipment to the battery being charged ... applies to 1- & 2-battery configurations.  So that means - use a mechanical (needle-type) voltage meter and amp meter in the setup ... no digital meters, scopes, etc ... that works for me.


Well plengo, those are the highlights.  I'm going to try and find a couple of small (hopefully new) flooded lead-acid batteries to continue with ... maybe motorcycle batteries.


****I've added this:  Bob Says that a pulse width (PW) as long as 2.5usec will work and a micro clocking at only 4MHz is sufficient.  This implies that the pulsing frequency is not too high ... maybe less than 50kHz because of the micro's overhead, etc.  He also said what's equally important is " ... what's going on between the pulses ...", but unfortunately he offered no specific details but I feel it did warrant mentioning.


Later,


Greg
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 06:08:02 AM by gmeast »

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2012, 06:59:19 PM »

Offline gmeast

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2012, 05:18:08 AM »

Hi all,


Just in case you might want to know one of the frequencies watkykjy1 was running his Hex-Controller at during the 'self-charging' demo videos,  here is a capture from his first video ... below.  He made 5 vids that he posted to YouTube (public).  He made the first one and then re-made the demo as a 4-parter 1of4 thru 4of4, and this latter series of 4 vids is what most people have watched.  The capture below is from his first video (not part of the series of 4).  He doubtless made more videos (for private viewing) for selected individuals ... maybe.


The capture shows a sweep of 50 micro-seconds per division.  The pulses seen on the scope occur almost every 50usecs which places the frequency at 20kHz.  This is  a relatively low frequency and easily negotiated by any micro and most definitely by my PPC.  I have set it at 20KHz and a PW of 600nsec 3-Ph.  I'll make a short vid to show you all - if interested ... just reply.


I hope I'm correct about the scope sweep.  If the full sweep is 50usec, then the frequency is 200KHz ... still relatively easy to negotiate.

Later,

Greg

The capture:
   

Offline broli

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2012, 10:30:47 AM »
It's sad that Bob can't just come in and assist you to get the desired effect on your already excellent circuit. Did something happen to him?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2012, 10:30:47 AM »
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Offline gmeast

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2012, 04:44:37 PM »
It's sad that Bob can't just come in and assist you to get the desired effect on your already excellent circuit. Did something happen to him?

Hi broli,

Thanks for your comment.

My last communication with Bob was on 6/20/2011.  He PM'd me via my private email address in reply to a question I had regarding the 'B+' choke.  In that reply he stated:

"... Yes, the B+ choke is always required. Right now is not a good time to be working with the toroidal tech, it no longer functions.  The dark energy density is too low and is falling rapidly, it is now below 33% of what it used to be ...."

 - which was shocking to hear.  However, recently, someone on the YahooGroups b-hex forum stated:

'... it works again ...'

There were other "interesting" comments in the email referring to some of this 2012 stuff, but since I consider him somewhat of a genius with special insight into LME,  I'll just keep some of that to myself (out of respect for Bob).

I had asked him several questions about component placement WRT the Toroid and in one of those replies he commented:

"... Please remember to keep all leads between the toroid and the PCB at identical lengths ........ While there's not enough room for a controller there, the center hole of the toroid is a convenient place to mount the toroid B+ choke. It slips over the Faraday cage center bolt (1/2" 304 SS threaded rod) and down into the center hole of the toroid quite nicely .........This field (Toroid's) can affect timing, so I suggest keeping the controller close to the core, either above or below it where the field is the weakest ..."

watkykiy1 had none of that in his demo'.

This implies that the controller should be in the center of the Toroid.  As it happens,  both of my boards 'folded' together (back to back) fit in the center of the Toroid with room to spare (as long as I get rid of the headers and solder those digital data lines direct to the board).  Steve Marks also alludes to the necessity of having the critical components in the center of a TPU Toroid.

As to your ? re: "Did something happen to him?", I think he's in '2012 preparation mode'.

A correction to my earlier post regarding 'micro clock speed' ... he was actually referring to IPS (instructions per second) ... 4MIPS not 4MHz.

Anyway,  I'm still pretty sure the frequency that watkykiy1 used is in the 20KHz to 50KHz range judging by the specs of the FET driver chip UCC2732X.  Thanks for replying ... and your comment about my circuit.

Greg

« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 12:25:33 AM by gmeast »

Offline gmeast

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2012, 12:48:56 AM »
Hi all,

Just in case you might want to know one of the frequencies watkykjy1 was running his Hex-Controller at during the 'self-charging' demo videos,  here is a capture from his first video ... below..........................................................

.......................................I hope I'm correct about the scope sweep.  If the full sweep is 50usec, then the frequency is 200KHz ... still relatively easy to negotiate.

Later,

Greg

Hi all,

Sorry about quoting myself, but I have been going through my communications with Bob and I was able to pinpoint one of the operational frequencies we need to aim for.  This was gleaned from an email he sent to me on 2/15/2011.  I don't think he would mind me 'excerpting' a piece of it for the purposes here.  We had been discussing frequencies,  the PWM3G, FETs and FET drivers, Micros, etc and he cautioned about over-driving the Toroid.  He stated this:

" ... Oh, you'll want to be careful about pulse repetition rate, ie operational
frequency. When W made a mistake in his clock divisor value, he accidentally
hit 428 Khz instead of 42.8 khz. The resulting avalanche fried his toroid and HC
board ..."

(W refers to watkykiy1 and HC refers to Hex Controller).

... which is pretty clear that 42.8KHz is one of the operational frequencies ... and probably 21.4KHz also.   He does state that power density is directly related to frequency ... of course, however this caution is vital to having a complete working knowledge of this stuff.

... wanted to share this.  Later,

Greg

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2012, 12:48:56 AM »
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Offline gmeast

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2012, 04:59:54 AM »

Hi Plengo,

Thanks.  Some of the information Bob has shared with me I have agreed NOT to discuss in open forum.

watkykjy1's videos did raise some question:  In a single battery charging setup, 2 chokes are required ... ................................................................................

****I've added this:  Bob Says that a pulse width (PW) as long as 2.5usec will work and a micro clocking at only 4MHz is sufficient.  This implies that the pulsing frequency is not too high ... maybe less than 50kHz because of the micro's overhead, etc.  He also said what's equally important is " ... what's going on between the pulses ...", but unfortunately he offered no specific details but I feel it did warrant mentioning.

Later,

Greg

OK guys,

Here's another interesting clue that Bob has alluded to regarding " ... what's going on between the pulses ..."

In a PM to me on 2/15/2011 he had made the following comment:

" ... Also, I've not seen any discussion of the driver inhibit pins yet. They can be
used for individually gating each drivers output, which allows for secondary
 channel control over each output. This is useful for creating timed gaps in an
otherwise continuous pulse stream. Since you're not using a microcontroller
to control your pulse pattern, you should be able to come up with another
method to create timed gaps. The PWM3 series uses halved and halved
again frequencies to create these timed gaps. The HC uses code ...."

Can someone shine some light on this if they know what he may be suggesting?

Thanks,

Greg

Offline gmeast

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2012, 01:37:41 AM »
I can make a guess.  Using 1/2 and 1/4 Frequencies, you could form a kind of "rotation" in the field, as a form of modulation.  I can't really explain what I intend to say much better than that.  In any rotating digital logic, this is standard procedure, but not thought about much in these modern times.  There are LOTS of proprietary circuits to do special things using this type of concept.

Of course, I have no idea if this was the idea he was actually talking about.  Seems logical, however.

Good Luck.



Hi Loner,


Thanks for your input.  I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "rotation".  As for the 'wacky' charging video, the 3 phases fire separate coils in a "firing" order and to me, that seems like a "rotation" .... moving the unsaturated core field around in the toroid in one direction ... or I simply don't understand "rotation" in this type of system.


My "building-block" controller can do 'timed spaces'.  In fact I'll only two more partially populated Frequency Boards (sans the clocks and power regulators) ... they will slave off of the same clock and use the same regulator.  Then I'll need to use 1 more Phase Board also.  It goes like this ... the lowest frequency board will have the longest PW.  The successive channels will have 'successively' shorter PWs and will need to be successively increased (matched) to the lowest fequency's PW.


wacky's video only showed 3 pulses per cycle ... 120 degrees phased.  I think you need the timed spacing for hydroxy production though ... so much still unclear ... oh my, oh my!


Later,


Greg




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2012, 01:37:41 AM »
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Offline Les Banki

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2012, 04:29:18 AM »
Hi guys,

Perhaps you are not aware that I designed (and published-on no less than 3 forums!) a 'replacement' for Bob's "Hex controller" about 5 years ago!
It has only ONE frequency control, the other two 'follow' automatically.  Synchronized.
Phase delays between them is adjustable, so is the pulse width, individually or together.

I published the circuit diagram, detailed circuit description AND the pcb layout!
For your convenience, I have attached those files here.

Check it all out, if you are interested.

Best regards,
Les Banki

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2012, 06:30:17 AM »
Thanks Les for posting those documents and schematics.   I hope people realize what a treasure these are and how nice it is you are sharing your work like this.  I have not kept up on your work but know you are working with HHO.  Do you have any engines running solely on HHO? 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2012, 06:30:17 AM »
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Offline gmeast

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2012, 07:25:47 AM »
Hi guys,

Perhaps you are not aware that I designed (and published-on no less than 3 forums!) a 'replacement' for Bob's "Hex controller" about 5 years ago!
It has only ONE frequency control, the other two 'follow' automatically.  Synchronized.
Phase delays between them is adjustable, so is the pulse width, individually or together.

I published the circuit diagram, detailed circuit description AND the pcb layout!
For your convenience, I have attached those files here.

Check it all out, if you are interested.

Best regards,
Les Banki

Hi Les,

Thanks for the comprehensive post .  My interest in this stuff is pretty well limited to the self charging characteristics exhibited in the series of watkykjy1's YouTube videos.  I assume you've viewed those.

My goal is to try and offer a digital controller having the same stability and output characteristics as a Micro-based controller but that is adjustable (tuneable) on-the-fly via DIP Switches.  This might appeal to some experimenters that otherwise might shy away from controllers such as the PWM3G or a synchronized version of that ... like yours.  The role harmonics plays in hydroxy systems has been well published, but the criteria that must be met to achieve successful self-charging performance from a 3-Phase Boyce Toroid/Controller combination is NOT well published or understood except (it seems) by Bob himself.  I appreciate the help he's given me privately more than I can express, but some info' still seems cryptic to me.

Thanks again for the contribution of your very professional write-up, schematic, and the PCB layout and masks.

Later,

Greg

Offline Les Banki

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2012, 07:30:35 AM »
'e2matrix'

Thanks for your kind words.
I designed that circuit as an 'engineering challenge'!

However, most people don't seem to realize that you don't need "fancy" resonance drive to run generator engines! (no kidding)

I ran a 250cc engine on HydrOxy only (about 16 years ago), just to prove it could be done.
Then I was out of the "game" for about 10 years, doing other things.

This time around I have designed a large number of circuits for the complete control of generators running on HydrOxy ONLY. (there is even an automatic start circuit!)

Now I am in the final stages of setting up a new 9kW generator.

If you wish to have details and follow my progress, all my files are available on the 'watercarTWO' Forum.
[You need to join and 'log in' to download the files though.  (not my decision!)]
(There must be about 60 files there - some are pictures, drawings, etc.)

By the way, I also post on THIS forum, in the "Selfrunning HHO system with 400W additional outut" thread.  There you can not only read my posts but can also see the attachments!

Best regards,
Les Banki

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2012, 07:30:35 AM »
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Offline e2matrix

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2012, 07:19:03 AM »
Thanks Les,  I joined the group and will dig into some of the details soon.   

Offline gmeast

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2-battery charging setup
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2012, 07:19:46 AM »
Hi all,

I'd appreciate some input from someone who might know.  I had asked Bob in a private email about problems with the single-battery setup as seen in wacky1's videos.  I had not achieved net charging so I asked him '... what about my battery might prevent charging ...?'.  Part of his reply stated this:

"The large battery could have self-discharge losses higher than the charge current. With single battery charging, losses are more critical because we have to use the series choke on the output. If running from one battery and charging a second battery bank of higher voltage, the choke can be eliminated so that charging is greatly enhanced. Just be sure not to connect anything electronic to that battery with the toroid running."

The part I don't understand is the distinction he makes about the batteries being charged:
" ... If running from one battery and charging a second battery bank of higher voltage, the choke can be eliminated so that charging is greatly enhanced."

Why higher?  This means you can't run in a 'battery swap' configuration because the battery you wish to charge will have lower voltage than the 'running' battery.  That's the whole point ... charge up the depleted battery! 

As I go back through my communications with Bob, I am getting confused.

Later,

Greg
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 05:00:43 PM by gmeast »

Offline gmeast

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Re: 2-battery charging setup
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2012, 09:43:41 PM »
Hi all,

I'd appreciate some input from someone who might know.  I had asked Bob in a private email about problems with the single-battery setup as seen in wacky1's videos.  I had not achieved net charging so I asked him '... what about my battery might prevent charging ...?'.  Part of his reply stated this:

"The large battery could have self-discharge losses higher than the charge current. With single battery charging, losses are more critical because we have to use the series choke on the output. If running from one battery and charging a second battery bank of higher voltage, the choke can be eliminated so that charging is greatly enhanced. Just be sure not to connect anything electronic to that battery with the toroid running."

The part I don't understand is the distinction he makes about the batteries being charged:
" ... If running from one battery and charging a second battery bank of higher voltage, the choke can be eliminated so that charging is greatly enhanced."

Why higher?  This means you can't run in a 'battery swap' configuration because the battery you wish to charge will have lower voltage than the 'running' battery.  That's the whole point ... charge up the depleted battery! 

As I go back through my communications with Bob, I am getting confused.

Later,

Greg

OK ... never mind.  I get it.  Regardless of the circuitry, 'charging' a battery of lower voltage would just allow the 'run' battery to discharge into the 'charge battery' until equalization.  Boy! ... this would be a real good way to fool yourself into thinking you're charging when you're NOT.  OOOOOHHH! I hope this isn't what some experimenters fail to realize when they assume their circuit is charging the 'low' battery but actually isn't.  One must be very careful!!!!!!!!!

So ... I'll use three 12VDC,  7 to 8 AH batteries.  Two in series in the 'charge bank' and one 'run' battery.  Just keep dumping the 'high' battery off of the 'charge bank' and swap it in as the new run battery and put the old run battery at the 'bottom' of the 'charge bank'.  Or should I not allow that much stress and just  keep a 6VDC battery at the bottom of the 'charge bank' or even a 2-cell 3VDC battery at the bottom? 

Help!

Later,

Greg
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 11:45:22 PM by gmeast »

Offline gmeast

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Re: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2012, 12:39:34 AM »
OK everyone,

I'm buying two, brand new 12VDC SLA batteries by Power Patrol and one, brand new 4VDC SLA battery - also by Power Patrol.  The 4-volt battery will stay at the 'bottom' of the 'battery charge bank' and the two 12-volt batteries will swap roles as 'run battery' and 'top-charge battery'.  This way, I follow what Bob Boyce has said to do. 

The 12-volts are 7AH and the 4-volt is 5AH.  I'll be pulsing these with my new PPC board combination in 3-Phase mode using one of my digital Frequency Boards and one of my digital Phase Boards ... one phase from the F-Board and the other two phases from the P-Board.

I have to wait for a deposit to post before I can get the 12-volt guys, but I can get the 4-volt guy right now thanks to an unexpected but greatly appreciated donation from Pierre Corbeil of the Fondation Néodyme Internationale in Canada ... I can't believe it!  THANK YOU!

Later,

Greg

 

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